TT 1UZ power level issues.
11-19-14, 09:41 AM
#16
right first gen 1uz has 2 ignitors, 2 coils, 2 distributors (2 caps and rotors) and a bunch of plug wires.
When you say tune what ecu are you on?
if you are on aftermarket you can just bypass all the ignitors and coils and go coil on plug one on each cylinder with some GM Lq9 coils and have enough spark to keep the motor very happy.
If you are on the stock ecu, the stock ecu needs to talk to the stock ignitors as they return an IGF signal, so you have to either fake the IGF signal or just change out the coils and add a spark box for each distributor.
on the coil on plug ecu's they have an IGF simulator, but the IGF signal is different between single channel ignitor ecu's and one with mutli coils, so the circuit for faking IGF probably wont work for a 1st gen 1uz or 2jzge ecu that use distributors, so ignore that part about faking IGF with the stock 1uz ecu might not work.
When you say tune what ecu are you on?
if you are on aftermarket you can just bypass all the ignitors and coils and go coil on plug one on each cylinder with some GM Lq9 coils and have enough spark to keep the motor very happy.
If you are on the stock ecu, the stock ecu needs to talk to the stock ignitors as they return an IGF signal, so you have to either fake the IGF signal or just change out the coils and add a spark box for each distributor.
on the coil on plug ecu's they have an IGF simulator, but the IGF signal is different between single channel ignitor ecu's and one with mutli coils, so the circuit for faking IGF probably wont work for a 1st gen 1uz or 2jzge ecu that use distributors, so ignore that part about faking IGF with the stock 1uz ecu might not work.
11-20-14, 02:12 PM
#17
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Hey 99SC42 I have 2 fuel systems. 16 injectors.
I'm running my stock fuel system. and that system I'm usually running 93 octane. (Some times I mix in some Toulene)
On my secondary set which are 900cc injectors I'm running E85.
The secondary injectors come on once the motor see 2psi and they then add the additional fuel the stock system cant.
I'm running a a stock first gen ECU. I have tricked the ignitor signal on a toyota 4Cyl before and ran an MSD controller, and box.
I was hoping to avoid this as 2 of them would be above the cost of a good stand alone by itself.
I was thinking of trying to change out the stock coils with a couple MSD coils first, and see if that would take care of the spark issue at boost above the 23-24psi level.
I'm running my stock fuel system. and that system I'm usually running 93 octane. (Some times I mix in some Toulene)
On my secondary set which are 900cc injectors I'm running E85.
The secondary injectors come on once the motor see 2psi and they then add the additional fuel the stock system cant.
right first gen 1uz has 2 ignitors, 2 coils, 2 distributors (2 caps and rotors) and a bunch of plug wires.
When you say tune what ecu are you on?
if you are on aftermarket you can just bypass all the ignitors and coils and go coil on plug one on each cylinder with some GM Lq9 coils and have enough spark to keep the motor very happy.
If you are on the stock ecu, the stock ecu needs to talk to the stock ignitors as they return an IGF signal, so you have to either fake the IGF signal or just change out the coils and add a spark box for each distributor.
on the coil on plug ecu's they have an IGF simulator, but the IGF signal is different between single channel ignitor ecu's and one with mutli coils, so the circuit for faking IGF probably wont work for a 1st gen 1uz or 2jzge ecu that use distributors, so ignore that part about faking IGF with the stock 1uz ecu might not work.
When you say tune what ecu are you on?
if you are on aftermarket you can just bypass all the ignitors and coils and go coil on plug one on each cylinder with some GM Lq9 coils and have enough spark to keep the motor very happy.
If you are on the stock ecu, the stock ecu needs to talk to the stock ignitors as they return an IGF signal, so you have to either fake the IGF signal or just change out the coils and add a spark box for each distributor.
on the coil on plug ecu's they have an IGF simulator, but the IGF signal is different between single channel ignitor ecu's and one with mutli coils, so the circuit for faking IGF probably wont work for a 1st gen 1uz or 2jzge ecu that use distributors, so ignore that part about faking IGF with the stock 1uz ecu might not work.
I was hoping to avoid this as 2 of them would be above the cost of a good stand alone by itself.
I was thinking of trying to change out the stock coils with a couple MSD coils first, and see if that would take care of the spark issue at boost above the 23-24psi level.
11-21-14, 12:40 PM
#20
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
I just had this conversation on Lextreme, about stand alone, and stock ECU.
I don't think a stand alone is going to help with the head lifting problem.
There are a lot of negitives with a stand alone that I don't have to deal with on the stock ECU yet.
For right now I think im going to keep the stock ECU.
If you guys care to read about the thread on lextreme.
http://www.lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16748
I don't think a stand alone is going to help with the head lifting problem.
There are a lot of negitives with a stand alone that I don't have to deal with on the stock ECU yet.
For right now I think im going to keep the stock ECU.
If you guys care to read about the thread on lextreme.
http://www.lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16748
11-21-14, 02:02 PM
#21
I gave it a read over there. I really do think your problem is detonation and I will tell you why I think so.
Those who are running 30psi and not lifting the head are not injecting gasoline fuel 93oct at that point, I would assume standalone and e85 is basically what they are using.
your setup, however, is different. you still have 8 injectors injecting 93 octane that cannot be turned off at WOT.
So while you may be able to spray enough e85 to bring the total mixture close enough to e85 with the fuel to prevent detonation, it will still not be e85 its more like a e70 or something which will be at a lower mixture amount than running pure e85. You end up having to balance with how overly rich you can inject e85 to dilute the gas and running overly rich is going to make you run out of spark earlier. this is not an effective method to prevent detonation, but might curb it some which reflects your success into just getting into the 20 psi range which is halfway between what you can run on pump at that compression (mid teens) and e85 alone (30+psi).
The gas is diluting it and hence why you are experiencing detonation at lower psi levels than everyone else on pure e85. This is 100% solved on a standalone where you run 1 type of fuel all the time on a high compresion high boost motor. In my honest opinion gasoline should not even be within 10 feet of that setup. its no wonder you are blowing the gasket its from the detonation. the e85 is keeping it from being much worse like engine damage wise but its not enough to save the gasket, that is my best guess, you gotta get that gasoline out of there asap.
The headgasket does not fail at those boost levels unless there is detonation, and thats going to happen with gasoline, I would change the fuel setup to cure the problem.
I think standalone and coils are the answer and you would be impressed with the results. its not that hard to tune these engines once you get all the parameters right.
Those who are running 30psi and not lifting the head are not injecting gasoline fuel 93oct at that point, I would assume standalone and e85 is basically what they are using.
your setup, however, is different. you still have 8 injectors injecting 93 octane that cannot be turned off at WOT.
So while you may be able to spray enough e85 to bring the total mixture close enough to e85 with the fuel to prevent detonation, it will still not be e85 its more like a e70 or something which will be at a lower mixture amount than running pure e85. You end up having to balance with how overly rich you can inject e85 to dilute the gas and running overly rich is going to make you run out of spark earlier. this is not an effective method to prevent detonation, but might curb it some which reflects your success into just getting into the 20 psi range which is halfway between what you can run on pump at that compression (mid teens) and e85 alone (30+psi).
The gas is diluting it and hence why you are experiencing detonation at lower psi levels than everyone else on pure e85. This is 100% solved on a standalone where you run 1 type of fuel all the time on a high compresion high boost motor. In my honest opinion gasoline should not even be within 10 feet of that setup. its no wonder you are blowing the gasket its from the detonation. the e85 is keeping it from being much worse like engine damage wise but its not enough to save the gasket, that is my best guess, you gotta get that gasoline out of there asap.
The headgasket does not fail at those boost levels unless there is detonation, and thats going to happen with gasoline, I would change the fuel setup to cure the problem.
I think standalone and coils are the answer and you would be impressed with the results. its not that hard to tune these engines once you get all the parameters right.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 11-21-14 at 02:09 PM.
11-24-14, 11:31 AM
#22
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
I sorry Ali,
I don't agree with that at all. You are making it sould like 93 octane is causing the detonation, and thats not the case. Plus the motor has done the same thing with 87, 93, 100, and toulene in the stock tank.
doesn't matter what fuel, it lifts the head at certin boost/power levels.
Next thing is it did it at 14 psi with stock head bolts. I changed the headbolts, and it stopped. the headbolts have nothing to do with detonation.
It started again at about 21 psi.
I'm pretty sure the head gasket lifting at 14, and making a spot on the head gasket that didn't seal after changing the studs out.
the gasket had a weak spot, and the increased pressure keeps finding the week spot as the cylinder preasure increases.
Changing fuels would add, or stop detonation. It doesn't in my case.
I don't agree with that at all. You are making it sould like 93 octane is causing the detonation, and thats not the case. Plus the motor has done the same thing with 87, 93, 100, and toulene in the stock tank.
doesn't matter what fuel, it lifts the head at certin boost/power levels.
Next thing is it did it at 14 psi with stock head bolts. I changed the headbolts, and it stopped. the headbolts have nothing to do with detonation.
It started again at about 21 psi.
I'm pretty sure the head gasket lifting at 14, and making a spot on the head gasket that didn't seal after changing the studs out.
the gasket had a weak spot, and the increased pressure keeps finding the week spot as the cylinder preasure increases.
Changing fuels would add, or stop detonation. It doesn't in my case.
11-25-14, 08:58 AM
#24
I see what you are saying but you are missing that headbolts do have to do with detonation. if you have mild detonation you could be stretching the stock bolts so upgraded ARP would help hold it that much longer, so it just happens at a higher psi now. If you were running pure e85 likely you could even use the stock bolts for much higher psi than that cause they wouldn't detonate randomly causing stress on the bolts all the time.
why do you think injecting gasoline fuel is still a good idea at 20 psi. If you must stick with the stock ecu I would have had the stock ecu cut out its injectors and the e85 ones come on only on top but you will have a very rough transition point and I don't even know anyone who has tuned like that before or with injecting both gas and e85. Add a methanol spray and if it goes away you will know it was some form of detonation but its a bandaid fix, 93 fuel does not like those conditions and compression it will preignite at 20+ psi and if there is enough volume of gas that ignites it will act like the spark plug that will set off the pre-ignition resistant e85 mix... not everytime but enough to make you have to deal with it when it blows your gasket.
Just my opinion though trying to help out, if its not that then there is no explanation I can think of you are the first person I have heard to blow gaskets on e85 at such a low psi. thats pretty much what everyone in the other thread told you was that the stock ecu timing which you haven't said what it is running at those psi in combination with the odd fueling has got to be part of the problem. Just e85 alone should practically never detonate and eat up all that extra timing you are throwing at it but its not the case for some reason.
why do you think injecting gasoline fuel is still a good idea at 20 psi. If you must stick with the stock ecu I would have had the stock ecu cut out its injectors and the e85 ones come on only on top but you will have a very rough transition point and I don't even know anyone who has tuned like that before or with injecting both gas and e85. Add a methanol spray and if it goes away you will know it was some form of detonation but its a bandaid fix, 93 fuel does not like those conditions and compression it will preignite at 20+ psi and if there is enough volume of gas that ignites it will act like the spark plug that will set off the pre-ignition resistant e85 mix... not everytime but enough to make you have to deal with it when it blows your gasket.
Just my opinion though trying to help out, if its not that then there is no explanation I can think of you are the first person I have heard to blow gaskets on e85 at such a low psi. thats pretty much what everyone in the other thread told you was that the stock ecu timing which you haven't said what it is running at those psi in combination with the odd fueling has got to be part of the problem. Just e85 alone should practically never detonate and eat up all that extra timing you are throwing at it but its not the case for some reason.
11-25-14, 12:42 PM
#26
Yup that is exactly what I mean in fact I think I may switch over to e85 already.
If you really want to maintain the stock ecu, have you thought about running your main injectors off e85 also? you go around 40% larger injectors than stock and fill the stock tank with e85, it should run decent on the stock ecu or even well with a disconnected o2 and a little piggyback tuning or a fuel pressure adjustment on those injectors to get it close if no piggyback. The ecu shouldn't pull timing on this fuel anymore which is good.
then you use your secondaries in boost to make up for the extra like you are right now, except you will have no octane reduction whatsoever in boost now from the main injectors.
Thats all I can think of to make your setup work better with the least modification is an injector size change on the primaries and running e85 on all injectors.
If you really want to maintain the stock ecu, have you thought about running your main injectors off e85 also? you go around 40% larger injectors than stock and fill the stock tank with e85, it should run decent on the stock ecu or even well with a disconnected o2 and a little piggyback tuning or a fuel pressure adjustment on those injectors to get it close if no piggyback. The ecu shouldn't pull timing on this fuel anymore which is good.
then you use your secondaries in boost to make up for the extra like you are right now, except you will have no octane reduction whatsoever in boost now from the main injectors.
Thats all I can think of to make your setup work better with the least modification is an injector size change on the primaries and running e85 on all injectors.
11-25-14, 07:08 PM
#27
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
You must be talking about a 2jz. I don't know enough about the 3.0 and how it relates to the 1uz
11-25-14, 07:23 PM
#28
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Ali, I am sure detonation is not an issue. I have checked the plugs, I am familiar with detonation, and the number of times I have ran the car with the head lifting, detonation would have had motor issues pistons/bearings multiple times over.
The reason I'm running gas is that it makes the car run like toyota intended.
Turning the stock ecu off and switching to something else would be a huge pain, and a huge expense. Way to much time and effort.
Plus gas has more BTU's the ethanol. The more gas I run the more power potential I have. I only want to run ethanol for the benefit of cooling, and detonation prevention. Gas makes a lot more power then ethanol.
After talking with a few people we are pretty sure that lifting the head at the lower psi with the stock bolts cause a weak spot that the higher psi levels are now causing to fail again.
The plan is to change out head gaskets and retorted the studs.
The reason I'm running gas is that it makes the car run like toyota intended.
Turning the stock ecu off and switching to something else would be a huge pain, and a huge expense. Way to much time and effort.
Plus gas has more BTU's the ethanol. The more gas I run the more power potential I have. I only want to run ethanol for the benefit of cooling, and detonation prevention. Gas makes a lot more power then ethanol.
After talking with a few people we are pretty sure that lifting the head at the lower psi with the stock bolts cause a weak spot that the higher psi levels are now causing to fail again.
The plan is to change out head gaskets and retorted the studs.
11-26-14, 10:51 AM
#30
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Sorry you feel that way GL.
If you have experience with the 1UZ, I'd be happy to hear what you have learned. Especially if it similar to my build.
If your advice is to get a stand alone ECU I thank you for your input.
I'm not going that route, but I appreciate your advice.
I don't feel I've reached the limit of what the stock ECU can do.
If I do reach the limit I'm fairly certin that will be how far I'm willing to push the car.
Thanks again for your advice, but I don't think that is the route I'm going to take.
If you have experience with the 1UZ, I'd be happy to hear what you have learned. Especially if it similar to my build.
If your advice is to get a stand alone ECU I thank you for your input.
I'm not going that route, but I appreciate your advice.
I don't feel I've reached the limit of what the stock ECU can do.
If I do reach the limit I'm fairly certin that will be how far I'm willing to push the car.
Thanks again for your advice, but I don't think that is the route I'm going to take.