BMW gearbox + 2jz ; anyone stateside done this yet?
11-21-14, 11:41 AM
#31
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I know the v8 bellhousing is not the same it obvuislky has place for 2 starters but I said v8 transmission with the I6 bellhousing, yes you would have to swap the bell housings out and they are getting harder to find.
As far as I understand the 6 speed "420" box is the one we want to use.
As far as I understand the 6 speed "420" box is the one we want to use.
IF you had an I6 manual transmission bellhousing the 6mt gearbox would be attached.
The v8 g420 boxes also have another issue- the flexdisc is 105mm pattern; the I6 6mt and 5mt use a 96mm pattern for flexdisc.
This is the realm of super bmw haxoring; please dont comment if you have NEVER TOUCHED the gearboxes or done a 6mt swap into a 5mt BMW.
I dont think you managed to read all the data listed above.
420 box has throw out bearing INSIDE the engine; if you want to avoid this use the 2005+ ZF 6 speed.
420 box is also pretty ****ty when it comes to syncro on #2/ #3 - OH YA - its also NOT SERVICABLE like the v160/161. you CANNOT rebuild or service the 420 getrag.
if you wanted the best option for service / durability / clutches you would follow the BMW guys .............................
Many e46m guys who actually race in touring car series REMOVE the G420 6 speed and install a 5 speed; its alot cheaper and just as strong if you are under 600rwhp.
6 speed @ $1500 = stupid when the 5 speed is $300 and does the job just as well (or better)
the only difference between 5 speed and 6 speed is that 6th is 0.81 overdrive; both have 1:1 5th gear
Last edited by wanganstyl; 11-21-14 at 11:54 AM.
11-21-14, 01:06 PM
#32
lots of shops used to have them and also on the BMW board but it looks like they are not around like they used to be. where do you go to get a bellhouing for a supra the concept is not different you can find them unattached if you look in the right places. Also a smg bellhousing is the same part as the regular one it just hasn't has a little machine work done to it, but its possible to convert (not saying its easy or a good idea but I have read several threads on it).
so you are saying we should use the later 06+ because it has the pilot bearing in the flywheel?
I will take a more detailed look at those threads and see what I can make out then, it would certainly help with that problem.
are these trans as strong as the 420 box? I don't want to go to a weaker trans because of a pilot bearing issue.
you mentioned the 420g is not serviceable well are the 06+ more serviceable? that would be good news if they are.
I have read alot about the ZF 5 speeds and the m3 boxes and am trying to learn about the bmw transmissions in general. I obviously don't have your experience but I am trying to learn.
I definitely know I want an overdrive though is the thing and I doubt I am the only one that feels that way.
also I doubt I will be under 600hp forever, so I want a box like the get rag that can approach 8-900hp, that was its main attractive feature for me.
also I would think the 5 speed boxes are shorter (at least the older ones I have seen) and maybe mounting it could be challenging or at least different than the 6 speed, or are the mounts the same, still trying to figure that one out. the driveshafts aren't the same length from what I read.
so you are saying we should use the later 06+ because it has the pilot bearing in the flywheel?
I will take a more detailed look at those threads and see what I can make out then, it would certainly help with that problem.
are these trans as strong as the 420 box? I don't want to go to a weaker trans because of a pilot bearing issue.
you mentioned the 420g is not serviceable well are the 06+ more serviceable? that would be good news if they are.
I have read alot about the ZF 5 speeds and the m3 boxes and am trying to learn about the bmw transmissions in general. I obviously don't have your experience but I am trying to learn.
I definitely know I want an overdrive though is the thing and I doubt I am the only one that feels that way.
also I doubt I will be under 600hp forever, so I want a box like the get rag that can approach 8-900hp, that was its main attractive feature for me.
also I would think the 5 speed boxes are shorter (at least the older ones I have seen) and maybe mounting it could be challenging or at least different than the 6 speed, or are the mounts the same, still trying to figure that one out. the driveshafts aren't the same length from what I read.
11-21-14, 01:10 PM
#33
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lots of shops used to have them and also on the BMW board but it looks like they are not around like they used to be. where do you go to get a bellhouing for a supra the concept is not different you can find them unattached if you look in the right places. Also a smg bellhousing is the same part as the regular one it just hasn't has a little machine work done to it, but its possible to convert (not saying its easy or a good idea but I have read several threads on it).
so you are saying we need to use the later 06+ because it has the pilot bearing in the flywheel?
I will take a more detailed look at those threads and see what I can make out then.
are these trans as strong as the 420 box?
I have read alot about the ZF 5 speeds and the m3 boxes and am trying to learn about the bmw transmissions in general. I obviously don't have your experience but I am trying to learn.
I definitely know I want an overdrive though is the thing and I doubt I am the only one that feels that way.
also I doubt I will be under 600hp forever, so I want a box like the get rag that can approach 8-900hp, that was its main attractive feature for me.
also I would think the 5 speed boxes are shorter (at least the older ones I have seen) and maybe mounting it could be challenging or at least different than the 6 speed, or are the mounts the same, still trying to figure that one out. the driveshafts aren't from what I read.
so you are saying we need to use the later 06+ because it has the pilot bearing in the flywheel?
I will take a more detailed look at those threads and see what I can make out then.
are these trans as strong as the 420 box?
I have read alot about the ZF 5 speeds and the m3 boxes and am trying to learn about the bmw transmissions in general. I obviously don't have your experience but I am trying to learn.
I definitely know I want an overdrive though is the thing and I doubt I am the only one that feels that way.
also I doubt I will be under 600hp forever, so I want a box like the get rag that can approach 8-900hp, that was its main attractive feature for me.
also I would think the 5 speed boxes are shorter (at least the older ones I have seen) and maybe mounting it could be challenging or at least different than the 6 speed, or are the mounts the same, still trying to figure that one out. the driveshafts aren't from what I read.
driveshaft is custom for BMW->toyota rear end; so this is Moot.
G420 is old and outdated; nobody in competition uses them anymore with the newer 6mt 2005++ boxes commonly avail (for LESS MONEY); its also a NA engine gearbox that happens to be normal BMW over strength for engine; if you want a gearbox designed for TURBO then you want a 2006+ unit from a TURBO BMW.
YES; for those who have been in a 2jz hole of sorts BMW only produces TURBOCHARGED cars now - EVERY SINGLE new 2015 BMW is a turbo 4, twin or single turbo 6, or a twin turbo v8. EVERY 7 series has TWIN TURBO v8
What about... Trust what i am saying because I actually know BMW drivelines?
I make my own ORIGINAL CNC billet LSD differential for BMW applications; I know BMW drivelines quite well.
5 speed is shorter and more compact; this would be GOOD as its a pain in the *** to consider TRANSMISSION TUNNEL sheetmetal swapping.
BMW gearboxes have 2 sticks that connect to them and 2 rubber mounts to the chassis member; thats all.
Nothing bmw will bolt to a Sc300 chassis as its a toyota; Moot issue to consider as no BMW box is designed natively to bolt to your toyota chassis.
to get a BMW flywheel with pilot bearing INSIDE flywheel will require a 2004-2008.5 ZF gearbox from a 335i, 328i, 535i
Flywheel will have to be from a 2004-2006 M54b30 engine; NOT a n54 engine; the N54 engine uses an offset starter gear that will not fit the block of the older m54/m50/m20 engines.
the 2006+ zf 6 speed boxes come attached to TWIN TURBO BMW engines; these engines have more output potential with stock tubos (470rwhp) than a 2jz-gte+ BPU (400rwhp). a BMW twin turbo 3000cc will be just as strong if not stronger than a 2jz twin turbo 3000cc. Direct injection has come a long way, its also very nice to have FORGED MAHLE pistons and rods inside the BMW engine.
IF looking for a CHEAP solution then the ZF 5 speed is the best; $300 bux all day long and 600rwhp OK. deal with the pilot bearing in side 2jz crankshaft and you are done.
Cliffnotes:
5 speeds are good to 600 rwhp and cheap as FFFFFFF;
*****IF you are uber broke and want a 5 speed with overdrive the G260 is about the same strength and has a 0.83 overdrive; it also has an angle closer to a 2jz native angle if anyone cares to read this detail. G260 is found attached to M20 engines in e34 / e30 chassis*****
6 speeds are good to 800 rwhp over and not as cheap ; 2005-2008.5 335i / 535i will be THE one to get; TWIN TURBO N54B30 engine BMW GEARBOX
if you break any of them you need to stop drag racing a manual and put in a TH400 automatic.
Last edited by wanganstyl; 11-21-14 at 01:32 PM.
11-21-14, 02:17 PM
#34
Thanks for the info I will definately take your word for it since you have played with them before.
I understand both will need some sort of custom crossmember and won't bolt up LMAO I never though either would, but I don't think the point is entirely moot if you think about it.
If the trans is too short to reach our stock crossmember location then its going to be one tricky custom crossmember whereas the longer one might be more of a simple solution. either way yes they will be custom.
I am really trying to figure it out from all the info, so a 2006+ zf from a 335I will have the pilot in the flywheel, and be a 6 speed with overdrive that can handle 800rwhp? and its cheaper than a m3 trans? sounds like a win win to me.
the ZF 5 speed box sounds like a good option for those looking for a simple 5 speed box or for road racing, even though it doesn't have an overdrive you could drop in a lower diff ratio to space it back out so its not unbearable or just run the super close gears as is if thats your thing. for how I use my car it would likely drive me nuts with my current rear end ratio its already way too close in overdrive I would definately have to gear down for a 1:1 final drive.
I understand both will need some sort of custom crossmember and won't bolt up LMAO I never though either would, but I don't think the point is entirely moot if you think about it.
If the trans is too short to reach our stock crossmember location then its going to be one tricky custom crossmember whereas the longer one might be more of a simple solution. either way yes they will be custom.
I am really trying to figure it out from all the info, so a 2006+ zf from a 335I will have the pilot in the flywheel, and be a 6 speed with overdrive that can handle 800rwhp? and its cheaper than a m3 trans? sounds like a win win to me.
the ZF 5 speed box sounds like a good option for those looking for a simple 5 speed box or for road racing, even though it doesn't have an overdrive you could drop in a lower diff ratio to space it back out so its not unbearable or just run the super close gears as is if thats your thing. for how I use my car it would likely drive me nuts with my current rear end ratio its already way too close in overdrive I would definately have to gear down for a 1:1 final drive.
11-21-14, 02:22 PM
#35
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Thanks for the info I will definately take your word for it since you have played with them before.
I understand both will need some sort of custom crossmember and won't bolt up LMAO I never though either would, but I don't think the point is entirely moot if you think about it.
If the trans is too short to reach our stock crossmember location then its going to be one tricky custom crossmember whereas the longer one might be more of a simple solution. either way yes they will be custom.
I am really trying to figure it out from all the info, so a 2006+ zf from a 335I will have the pilot in the flywheel, and be a 6 speed with overdrive that can handle 800rwhp? and its cheaper than a m3 trans? sounds like a win win to me.
the ZF 5 speed box sounds like a good option for those looking for a simple 5 speed box or for road racing, even though it doesn't have an overdrive you could drop in a lower diff ratio to space it back out so its not unbearable or just run the super close gears as is if thats your thing. for how I use my car it would likely drive me nuts.
I understand both will need some sort of custom crossmember and won't bolt up LMAO I never though either would, but I don't think the point is entirely moot if you think about it.
If the trans is too short to reach our stock crossmember location then its going to be one tricky custom crossmember whereas the longer one might be more of a simple solution. either way yes they will be custom.
I am really trying to figure it out from all the info, so a 2006+ zf from a 335I will have the pilot in the flywheel, and be a 6 speed with overdrive that can handle 800rwhp? and its cheaper than a m3 trans? sounds like a win win to me.
the ZF 5 speed box sounds like a good option for those looking for a simple 5 speed box or for road racing, even though it doesn't have an overdrive you could drop in a lower diff ratio to space it back out so its not unbearable or just run the super close gears as is if thats your thing. for how I use my car it would likely drive me nuts.
lets apply some very simple logic- Getrag = ZF = getrag in 2015 modern times - they SHARE PARTS AND ASSEMBLY
V160V161 is for a 3400lbs car with 320hp 3000cc from toyota - 1993 design
ZF37gz is for a 3800lbs car (5 series) with a single turbo or 3500lbs with twin turbo (3 series) - 2004 design.
both are physically the same size; same manufacture, the NEWER one is designed for MORE STRESS.
........
2006-2008.5 gearbox from a N54b30 car - this is 335i, 535i. OEM BMW TWIN TURBO AND SINGLE TURBO 3000cc -
2008.5+ moves the pilot bearing into the transmission.
Much better ratios than a G420 - those are for NA engines.
the ZF 6 speed boxes have a specific mounting style i mentioned about 4x prior- its called a F-body mount; 4 bolts attach it to the gearbox and the other side goes to trans X member.
it looks like this: there are several OEM BMW variations of the F body mount; alternatively it would be VERY EASY to make your own.
BMW 5 speed + adapter for bellhouse (3' approx) = BMW 6mt length.
a bmw 6mt is only about 3" longer than a 5 speed.
BMW 5 speed is = same gears as 6mt; the 6 speed just has overdrive.
final drive of my 5 speed M3 is a 3,46 and it does daily driver duty just fine = its usable power is very similar to a 2jz-gte; 3200cc NA engine.
Last edited by wanganstyl; 11-21-14 at 02:27 PM.
11-21-14, 02:31 PM
#36
thanks for the pics of that I was starting to figure out what the f body mount was, that explains it better.
well 3" is not huge so it should be alright either way, will figure it out when the time comes.
I could see the 5 spd with a final drive of 3.46, but with my current 4.08 that is in my car it would be ridiculous probably.
although that does explain why the e36 m3 I drove moved alot quicker than I though it would.
I gotta say the trans did shift like butter it was a great chassis for headsnapping acceleration in n/a form.
well 3" is not huge so it should be alright either way, will figure it out when the time comes.
I could see the 5 spd with a final drive of 3.46, but with my current 4.08 that is in my car it would be ridiculous probably.
although that does explain why the e36 m3 I drove moved alot quicker than I though it would.
I gotta say the trans did shift like butter it was a great chassis for headsnapping acceleration in n/a form.
11-21-14, 02:35 PM
#37
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thanks for the pics of that I was starting to figure out what the f body mount was, that explains it better.
well 3" is not huge so it should be alright either way, will figure it out when the time comes.
I could see the 5 spd with a final drive of 3.46, but with my current 4.08 that is in my car it would be ridiculous probably.
although that does explain why the e36 m3 I drove moved alot quicker than I though it would.
I gotta say the trans did shift like butter it was a great chassis for headsnapping acceleration in n/a form.
well 3" is not huge so it should be alright either way, will figure it out when the time comes.
I could see the 5 spd with a final drive of 3.46, but with my current 4.08 that is in my car it would be ridiculous probably.
although that does explain why the e36 m3 I drove moved alot quicker than I though it would.
I gotta say the trans did shift like butter it was a great chassis for headsnapping acceleration in n/a form.
4.1 or 3.91 would be a joke; you would have 0 traction.
The 6 speed turbo transmission is paired with a 3.07 Final drive factory. I suggest a 3.23 for toyota use
11-21-14, 02:53 PM
#38
Yes I will likely end up with the gs400/430 diff the 3.26 as thats the easiest option. I guess that would work well on a 5 spd 1:1 transmission also just wont have that super cruising gear but I am determined to use a 6 spd I want it to be as close to a v160 swap in results as possible.
11-21-14, 02:58 PM
#39
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Yes I will likely end up with the gs400/430 diff the 3.26 as thats the easiest option. I guess that would work well on a 5 spd 1:1 transmission also just wont have that super cruising gear but I am determined to use a 6 spd I want it to be as close to a v160 swap in results as possible.
Same GETRAG factory makes it in Germany.
A full DECADE newer, better bearings and more efficient % power loss; designed for a better chassis and better engine than any 2jz/v160-161 was. Efficient bearing redesign means it will loose less power and put down more RWHP than a 161.
Data is all from getrag : there is a tech sheet on this online.
The 22 spline involuted spline setup is patented as well;
Last edited by wanganstyl; 11-21-14 at 03:10 PM.
11-21-14, 04:22 PM
#40
So i started thinking about the input shaft pilot bearing issue again.
even with the flywheel that has the pilot bushing in it, since that transmission normally engages the pilot at the flywheel its likely shorter than the older boxes.
Either way to make up for the adapter plate thickness the flywheel might need to be spaced off the crank that amount still correct?
it occurred to me you said the older 420 box has the pilot bushing in the crank, so likely it has a longer input shaft than the 06+ model. is there any remote possibility of using this 420 transmission with a 06+ flywheel w/pilot bushing and have it engage the flywheel instead of the crank due to the thickness in the adapter, then no spacing of the flywheel would be needed and a custom pilot bushing could be ordered if needed.
I am just not sure I like the idea of spacing out the flywheel from the crank for the 06+ or am I not understanding right and it does not need it?
thanks again for the detailed discussion this is helping me sort out things that are pretty vague on this swap.
even with the flywheel that has the pilot bushing in it, since that transmission normally engages the pilot at the flywheel its likely shorter than the older boxes.
Either way to make up for the adapter plate thickness the flywheel might need to be spaced off the crank that amount still correct?
it occurred to me you said the older 420 box has the pilot bushing in the crank, so likely it has a longer input shaft than the 06+ model. is there any remote possibility of using this 420 transmission with a 06+ flywheel w/pilot bushing and have it engage the flywheel instead of the crank due to the thickness in the adapter, then no spacing of the flywheel would be needed and a custom pilot bushing could be ordered if needed.
I am just not sure I like the idea of spacing out the flywheel from the crank for the 06+ or am I not understanding right and it does not need it?
thanks again for the detailed discussion this is helping me sort out things that are pretty vague on this swap.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 11-21-14 at 04:26 PM.
11-21-14, 04:31 PM
#41
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So i started thinking about the input shaft pilot bearing issue again.
even with the flywheel that has the pilot bushing in it, since that transmission normally engages the pilot at the flywheel its likely shorter than the older boxes.
Either way to make up for the adapter plate thickness the flywheel might need to be spaced off the crank that amount still correct?
it occurred to me you said the older 420 box has the pilot bushing in the crank, so likely it has a longer input shaft than the 06+ model. is there any remote possibility of using this 420 transmission with a 06+ flywheel w/pilot bushing and have it engage the flywheel instead of the crank due to the thickness in the adapter, then no spacing of the flywheel would be needed and a custom pilot bushing could be ordered if needed.
I am just not sure I like the idea of spacing out the flywheel from the crank for the 06+ or am I not understanding right and it does not need it?
thanks again for the detailed discussion this is helping me sort out things that are pretty vague on this swap.
even with the flywheel that has the pilot bushing in it, since that transmission normally engages the pilot at the flywheel its likely shorter than the older boxes.
Either way to make up for the adapter plate thickness the flywheel might need to be spaced off the crank that amount still correct?
it occurred to me you said the older 420 box has the pilot bushing in the crank, so likely it has a longer input shaft than the 06+ model. is there any remote possibility of using this 420 transmission with a 06+ flywheel w/pilot bushing and have it engage the flywheel instead of the crank due to the thickness in the adapter, then no spacing of the flywheel would be needed and a custom pilot bushing could be ordered if needed.
I am just not sure I like the idea of spacing out the flywheel from the crank for the 06+ or am I not understanding right and it does not need it?
thanks again for the detailed discussion this is helping me sort out things that are pretty vague on this swap.
BMW pilot bearings completely changed standard in 2006; the older transmissions are no way in hell compatible -you could not make them work together if you asked the tooth fairy.
its doubtful you have done much research; the internet has photos of people bolting the bmw flywheel to the 2jz engine; those who sell adapter kits would be the one to ask this question to.
one adapter with 2jz + bmw flywheel + 5 speed ZF
Another 3rd world country style swap with bellhouse cut + weld - If they can figure it out with very crude resources; anyone in north america can.
http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_...topic=151201.0
Last edited by wanganstyl; 11-21-14 at 04:37 PM.
11-21-14, 04:44 PM
#42
the guy on the last page with an adapter actually said something about spacing the flywheel out so its really not that stupid I dunno why you think you can decide what is worth discussing and what isn't.
I will just do it on my own, thanks for the info and good luck.
I will just do it on my own, thanks for the info and good luck.
I have this BMW transmission -> JZ adapter plate sitting here.
I will take a proof picture later when i´m in the garage.
Because i will stay with a built ATFspeed auto i´m selling it.
If anyone is interested.
I´ve got made some flywheel spacers too, which moves the flywheel to the input shaft.
Because the input shaft will not reach the pilot bearing when not used.
But pictures will come this afternoon/ evening...
I will take a proof picture later when i´m in the garage.
Because i will stay with a built ATFspeed auto i´m selling it.
If anyone is interested.
I´ve got made some flywheel spacers too, which moves the flywheel to the input shaft.
Because the input shaft will not reach the pilot bearing when not used.
But pictures will come this afternoon/ evening...
11-21-14, 04:58 PM
#43
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I don't need luck; you might though -
why even ask questions - you dont even read the responses or high level tech data- its not a junkyard here you know
if its too complex for then perhaps you need to do it 3rd world country style and just cut/weld bellhouse; solves all the issues you are fraid of.
3rd world country style!!!
Last edited by wanganstyl; 11-21-14 at 05:02 PM.
11-22-14, 11:49 AM
#44
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I hate this thread got a negative vibe too it, I was hoping to get some good info out of it and looking into doing this swap easily. Seems a better swap then the 350z trans cause I'm not seeing to many good options clutch wise with the z trans.
11-23-14, 03:11 AM
#45
There is a *mountain* of great concise info in this thread and I doubt I'd have even considered the possibility of using a ZF/Getrag 5-speed gearbox in the future had I not read it and the challenge of adapting a newer 6-speed variant is a worthy one. Folks on BMW forums have apparently been doing this long before we considered it here so there is some knowledge and catch-up to be done for those who want to pursue it.
I don't see how asking questions is a bad thing to that end.
Personally I am not yet fully up to speed on the specifics of these transmissions but I am very interested and want to learn.
I don't see how asking questions is a bad thing to that end.
Personally I am not yet fully up to speed on the specifics of these transmissions but I am very interested and want to learn.
