Repair Advice Requested: Head Gasket and Water Pump
07-03-13, 04:29 PM
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Repair Advice Requested: Head Gasket and Water Pump
Greetings all, I hope someone can help me.
Basically my father's first "I've finally made it" car was a dark green lexus sc-300. He drove it happily for many years, with very little difficulty, and with lots of fun. He entrusted it to me, rather than my older brother, because he felt I would take care of it.
And even though there's been some ups and downs, leaking oil, hydraulics in stuff leaking out so I need to use a golf club to prop it up, people hitting me, that sort of thing, I felt I've done an okay job of it.
Recently, i.e. about a month or so ago, on a very busy street (not quite a highway, it doesn't even really have sides to "get off on") my car started steaming and getting hot, FAST. I did my best to get somewhere safe off the road, and luckily I did, but at that exact moment it overheated and turned off. Got it towed to a pepboy's, and apparently the top radiator tube ruptured. Got that, and the bottom replaced (as it was starting to crack) and also got a new thermostat, as they said mine was acting up. About a week later I started losing water, pretty darn quick, had to refill about once every ten minutes. Took it to pepboys again, they replaced the radiator cap (after a bunch of diagnostics and hooha), that actually helped for about four days, but it was still leaking something (though it wasn't dripping anywhere as far as I could tell), so I had to fill up every four days, then every three, etc. Now I have to do a gallon a day (half gallon for past two, which was strange), and after some delay (work and such) I took it to pepboy's, again.
They stated I should take it to _____ repair place (won't name them as that'd be rude), as they stated they basically checked everything they could and maybe the radiator was cracked. The repair place diagnosed it that day, taking literally the entire time from 8-5, they basically said on base look at it looked like the head gasket was blown and the water pump was leaking. There was also some other pre-existing conditions that I was aware of (leaking crank seal and such, I just check every time I fill up to make sure car has oil, been that way for a couple of years), but otherwise they stated those two things would cost about 3000 dollars and a couple of weeks to replace. Also should note they said they'd have the full estimate and diagnostic that day, then they'd have it next morning, then that afternoon, then the next day morning, then at three o'clock today, they finally call at 4:30. So these guys aren't exactly professional, at least with their customer service.
Now maybe I'm naive, and I KNOW I am not vehicle-savvy (if you couldn't tell), but it seems like pepboy's would have detected the water pump, or if not, I was under the assumption a leaking water pump might actually leak on the ground, and as far as I could tell it must be the most subtle, slowest leak ever, as I had tested for that myself. Head gasket being blown would not be unusual given the age of the car, i.e. over 180,000 miles and 20 years, as well as the circumstance, but given that I had checked the oil and to my untrained eye it had the consistency expected, and I am almost certain there was no "white exhaust" which is apparently typical of it, I'm thinking it is at worst, minor.
TL;DR I'm not positive that they were being honest, and I...I frankly can't afford that, being a new college graduate trying to get into grad school, working as a QA clerk.
My general process is thus: Go to someone my family/friends trust, get a second opinion. If all this is true, get some sort of head gasket sealant (like that goes into the radiator) and try that and see if that fixes that end.
If that does fix it, replace water pump, as any sealant has a chance to gum up the water ways and it'd need to be done anyways.
Now I looked through the forums and this guy: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sc-...ne-to-buy.html
Apparently got his entire engine replaced with a default one (which I'm positive this one has), had new water pump installed, gaskets, etc., for 1700 dollars and that included the parts and labor. Now that sounds absolutely amazing to me, as it'd allow me to keep this, well, family heirloom, fix all the big problems, and hopefully get an engine with a bit less miles to it. Obviously it'd need to be done by someone trusted, but still.
Basically guys, I really really really really want to keep this car. It means so much to me, and my family, but I only have like 2000 dollars I could spend...Frankly worst case scenario I may very well keep it stored until I actually get out of grad school and get a halfway decent job, so I can get my baby running smooth again.
TL;DR again: Car is losing about a gallon to a half gallon of coolant, i.e. water, a day, driving to and from work, so about an hour total, with no real obvious water leakage, and seemingly no "white exhaust" or any such. First assessment was cracked head gasket and leaking water pump, and wanted to charge 3000 dollars.
My question is, what should I be doing and how much should this be costing? And as far as "DIY" I do not have any tools or experience, and my "father in law" as it were out here has quite a bit of experience, but I'd rather trust my car to a trusted professional.
I realize I may be long winded, but I really love this car and I don't want to let my dad down. I understand if sometimes you just have to suck it up, but I'm hoping my optimism is unwarranted.
Oh by the way I'm in the Mobile, Alabama area if that helps whatsoever.
Basically my father's first "I've finally made it" car was a dark green lexus sc-300. He drove it happily for many years, with very little difficulty, and with lots of fun. He entrusted it to me, rather than my older brother, because he felt I would take care of it.
And even though there's been some ups and downs, leaking oil, hydraulics in stuff leaking out so I need to use a golf club to prop it up, people hitting me, that sort of thing, I felt I've done an okay job of it.
Recently, i.e. about a month or so ago, on a very busy street (not quite a highway, it doesn't even really have sides to "get off on") my car started steaming and getting hot, FAST. I did my best to get somewhere safe off the road, and luckily I did, but at that exact moment it overheated and turned off. Got it towed to a pepboy's, and apparently the top radiator tube ruptured. Got that, and the bottom replaced (as it was starting to crack) and also got a new thermostat, as they said mine was acting up. About a week later I started losing water, pretty darn quick, had to refill about once every ten minutes. Took it to pepboys again, they replaced the radiator cap (after a bunch of diagnostics and hooha), that actually helped for about four days, but it was still leaking something (though it wasn't dripping anywhere as far as I could tell), so I had to fill up every four days, then every three, etc. Now I have to do a gallon a day (half gallon for past two, which was strange), and after some delay (work and such) I took it to pepboy's, again.
They stated I should take it to _____ repair place (won't name them as that'd be rude), as they stated they basically checked everything they could and maybe the radiator was cracked. The repair place diagnosed it that day, taking literally the entire time from 8-5, they basically said on base look at it looked like the head gasket was blown and the water pump was leaking. There was also some other pre-existing conditions that I was aware of (leaking crank seal and such, I just check every time I fill up to make sure car has oil, been that way for a couple of years), but otherwise they stated those two things would cost about 3000 dollars and a couple of weeks to replace. Also should note they said they'd have the full estimate and diagnostic that day, then they'd have it next morning, then that afternoon, then the next day morning, then at three o'clock today, they finally call at 4:30. So these guys aren't exactly professional, at least with their customer service.
Now maybe I'm naive, and I KNOW I am not vehicle-savvy (if you couldn't tell), but it seems like pepboy's would have detected the water pump, or if not, I was under the assumption a leaking water pump might actually leak on the ground, and as far as I could tell it must be the most subtle, slowest leak ever, as I had tested for that myself. Head gasket being blown would not be unusual given the age of the car, i.e. over 180,000 miles and 20 years, as well as the circumstance, but given that I had checked the oil and to my untrained eye it had the consistency expected, and I am almost certain there was no "white exhaust" which is apparently typical of it, I'm thinking it is at worst, minor.
TL;DR I'm not positive that they were being honest, and I...I frankly can't afford that, being a new college graduate trying to get into grad school, working as a QA clerk.
My general process is thus: Go to someone my family/friends trust, get a second opinion. If all this is true, get some sort of head gasket sealant (like that goes into the radiator) and try that and see if that fixes that end.
If that does fix it, replace water pump, as any sealant has a chance to gum up the water ways and it'd need to be done anyways.
Now I looked through the forums and this guy: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sc-...ne-to-buy.html
Apparently got his entire engine replaced with a default one (which I'm positive this one has), had new water pump installed, gaskets, etc., for 1700 dollars and that included the parts and labor. Now that sounds absolutely amazing to me, as it'd allow me to keep this, well, family heirloom, fix all the big problems, and hopefully get an engine with a bit less miles to it. Obviously it'd need to be done by someone trusted, but still.
Basically guys, I really really really really want to keep this car. It means so much to me, and my family, but I only have like 2000 dollars I could spend...Frankly worst case scenario I may very well keep it stored until I actually get out of grad school and get a halfway decent job, so I can get my baby running smooth again.
TL;DR again: Car is losing about a gallon to a half gallon of coolant, i.e. water, a day, driving to and from work, so about an hour total, with no real obvious water leakage, and seemingly no "white exhaust" or any such. First assessment was cracked head gasket and leaking water pump, and wanted to charge 3000 dollars.
My question is, what should I be doing and how much should this be costing? And as far as "DIY" I do not have any tools or experience, and my "father in law" as it were out here has quite a bit of experience, but I'd rather trust my car to a trusted professional.
I realize I may be long winded, but I really love this car and I don't want to let my dad down. I understand if sometimes you just have to suck it up, but I'm hoping my optimism is unwarranted.
Oh by the way I'm in the Mobile, Alabama area if that helps whatsoever.
07-03-13, 05:14 PM
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Honestly pep boys should be able to tell if you have a blown headgasket and bad water pump. If you get it to another shop to get their opinion on what it could be I'd do that.
Lets say tho that the shop was correct about the repairs needed. Servicing costs for a water pump + timing belt is around 600-1k depending on where you get it done and then headgasket replacement on this car is time consuming and can be very difficult for those that have never done it before. As you probably guessed that means changing a headgasket is costly, i read some threads on the topic and shops vary from 1k-2k.
If it was me out here in California i can get a used running engine for less than that cost so that may be something you want to look into.
Lets say tho that the shop was correct about the repairs needed. Servicing costs for a water pump + timing belt is around 600-1k depending on where you get it done and then headgasket replacement on this car is time consuming and can be very difficult for those that have never done it before. As you probably guessed that means changing a headgasket is costly, i read some threads on the topic and shops vary from 1k-2k.
If it was me out here in California i can get a used running engine for less than that cost so that may be something you want to look into.
07-03-13, 05:17 PM
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Honestly pep boys should be able to tell if you have a blown headgasket and bad water pump. If you get it to another shop to get their opinion on what it could be I'd do that.
Lets say tho that the shop was correct about the repairs needed. Servicing costs for a water pump + timing belt is around 600-1k depending on where you get it done and then headgasket replacement on this car is time consuming and can be very difficult for those that have never done it before. As you probably guessed that means changing a headgasket is costly, i read some threads on the topic and shops vary from 1k-2k.
If it was me out here in California i can get a used running engine for less than that cost so that may be something you want to look into.
Lets say tho that the shop was correct about the repairs needed. Servicing costs for a water pump + timing belt is around 600-1k depending on where you get it done and then headgasket replacement on this car is time consuming and can be very difficult for those that have never done it before. As you probably guessed that means changing a headgasket is costly, i read some threads on the topic and shops vary from 1k-2k.
If it was me out here in California i can get a used running engine for less than that cost so that may be something you want to look into.
Still would like others opinions too obviously ;P
07-03-13, 05:25 PM
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See that's what that thread I linked to said. Would getting a new engine entirely also mean I'd get a new water/pump? Because if that's the case, it seems like it'd actually be LESS expensive doing that then the others individually. Still, given that you said that both range from 600-1k and 1k-2k consecutively, I find it odd this place is trying to charge 3K, i.e. the MAX PRICE for -both-. I suspect some unnecessary repairs. Still, thanks for the advice.
Still would like others opinions too obviously ;P
Still would like others opinions too obviously ;P
You might be want to talk to 1JZPWRD he's a very knowledgeable guy from Alabama and could possibly point you in the right direction on where to look for local stuff.
07-03-13, 07:22 PM
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Let me chime in. It basically sounds like you want to keep the car. IMO, I would replace the head gasket first and while you are at it, I would do the cams seals, plugs, wires, clean the intake/throttle body, etc. It would make no sense to do a motor swap if indeed this motor is still salvageable. First do a compression test and report back your findings. If you don't know how, then have someone do it for you. Look for 150 plus across all 6 cylinders. If one is low, then lets go from there. If you are limited to doing this kind of work, it might be easier to just pull the motor and swap it with a better one, lower mileage, etc. I wish you were closer, I could lend a hand, without a doubt. I can help you over the phone or by email on which direction is best for you. We will get you going since your passion is to keep the car. I am in north Alabama, near Huntsville.
Off topic, do you know AJ Macarron? LOL
Off topic, do you know AJ Macarron? LOL
07-03-13, 07:25 PM
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If you got a new crate motor you would get all new parts but I'm pretty sure that's going to cost more than 3k. I was talking about getting a used engine and then possibly doing some maintenance work to it while the motors is out.
You might be want to talk to 1JZPWRD he's a very knowledgeable guy from Alabama and could possibly point you in the right direction on where to look for local stuff.
You might be want to talk to 1JZPWRD he's a very knowledgeable guy from Alabama and could possibly point you in the right direction on where to look for local stuff.
07-03-13, 08:28 PM
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Let me chime in. It basically sounds like you want to keep the car. IMO, I would replace the head gasket first and while you are at it, I would do the cams seals, plugs, wires, clean the intake/throttle body, etc. It would make no sense to do a motor swap if indeed this motor is still salvageable. First do a compression test and report back your findings. If you don't know how, then have someone do it for you. Look for 150 plus across all 6 cylinders. If one is low, then lets go from there. If you are limited to doing this kind of work, it might be easier to just pull the motor and swap it with a better one, lower mileage, etc. I wish you were closer, I could lend a hand, without a doubt. I can help you over the phone or by email on which direction is best for you. We will get you going since your passion is to keep the car. I am in north Alabama, near Huntsville.
Off topic, do you know AJ Macarron? LOL
Off topic, do you know AJ Macarron? LOL
As of right now before I do anything I want to confirm with a second source that the issues are indeed the one's listed. I'm not sure how a compression test works specifically but I know the people at the repair store did it. Supposedly they found "water in the number two cylinder", if that makes any sense.
My goal is frankly to get my car up and running via the cheapest method possible, but without compromising its safety. I'd rather keep it in storage and run it once a month until I can...well...graduate...and get an actual job that pays at least the median salary, than hurt her anymore than I have to. I'm guessing that 3K for a head gasket and a water pump sounds if not excessive, then a bit on the high side.
Sorry that I'm automobile-retarded, I mainly intentionally avoided messing with my girl because I was afraid of messing her up. Just checked her oil, gave her premium, kept her tires filled, her water high, and made sure she wasn't in pain.
Regardless it seems the assessment is "get more information" and "replacing the engine isn't the end-all solution here".
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07-04-13, 07:05 AM
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Just keep us updated on here and let us know what you decide to do. Alot of people in your situation would just cut their loss and sell it. People don't understand that anything can be repaired and fixed if the passion is still there.
If indeed there is water in the number 2 piston, I would be safe to say that it is a head gasket leaking. Thats really nothing big and major, people think it is the end of the world. It can be fixed with some tools,patience, and a little money. The most expensive thing is prolly the head work and the new head bolts by ARP.
If indeed there is water in the number 2 piston, I would be safe to say that it is a head gasket leaking. Thats really nothing big and major, people think it is the end of the world. It can be fixed with some tools,patience, and a little money. The most expensive thing is prolly the head work and the new head bolts by ARP.
07-04-13, 10:22 AM
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Assuming the head gasket is indeed leaking, (but hopefully minorly) is it a terrible idea to try and use one of those gelled sealants to see if that will seal it up?
Basically I'm looking for the cheapest possible fixes without hurting the car.
Basically I'm looking for the cheapest possible fixes without hurting the car.
07-08-13, 11:21 AM
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So good news is that apparently it wasn't a head gasket issue according to the new place, i.e. they tested the oil, pressure tested, looked for white smoke, nothing.
However the radiator was cracked pretty bad (replaced with lifetime warranty for 317 dollars, cheaper than they expected initially, so that was nice of them, also this place was suggested by a friend's dad, and I liked the cut of their jib). Also we hadn't replaced the radiator in about seven years, so it'd make sense.
Anyways they noted that the water pump was leaking, and given that apparently it's never been replaced, nor the timing belt. Also they don't do that repair, so I feel they had no reason to lie about that.
So good news is the head gasket doesn't appear to be cracked, bad news is radiator needed to be replaced, and apparently water pump too (and likely timing belt for safety's sake).
So, yay for that. Anyone know how much a timing belt/waterpump replacement should cost? Anyone know anyone trustworthy in mobile?
Also given that if I buy the parts myself, likely they will not have a warranty, so having the repair place order it is basically insurance.
Basically now I'm wondering the cost of water pump/timing belt replacement, and if anyone knows anyone from Mobile, Alabama that could do it (rather not risk doing more harm myself).
However the radiator was cracked pretty bad (replaced with lifetime warranty for 317 dollars, cheaper than they expected initially, so that was nice of them, also this place was suggested by a friend's dad, and I liked the cut of their jib). Also we hadn't replaced the radiator in about seven years, so it'd make sense.
Anyways they noted that the water pump was leaking, and given that apparently it's never been replaced, nor the timing belt. Also they don't do that repair, so I feel they had no reason to lie about that.
So good news is the head gasket doesn't appear to be cracked, bad news is radiator needed to be replaced, and apparently water pump too (and likely timing belt for safety's sake).
So, yay for that. Anyone know how much a timing belt/waterpump replacement should cost? Anyone know anyone trustworthy in mobile?
Also given that if I buy the parts myself, likely they will not have a warranty, so having the repair place order it is basically insurance.
Basically now I'm wondering the cost of water pump/timing belt replacement, and if anyone knows anyone from Mobile, Alabama that could do it (rather not risk doing more harm myself).
07-09-13, 03:17 PM
#13
good thing they caught it in time or it could have been your headgasket if it overheated a few more times.
never put any kind of stop leak stuff into your motor, they never work and usually mean you will break more things as it hardens in passages its not supposed to.
sometimes a small crack is hard to pin point, and the problem is that it usually won't leak till the pressure starts to build and at that point you are driving along and wont notice it sprayed out all the ecxess and by the time you have stopped its at the level where its not going to push much more out.
I would still do a compression test from the water in cylinder number 2 part, but on a 1uz you can get away with low compression in a cylinder or 2 for quite a while sometimes not even knowing it.
water pump and timing belt on the v8 aren't that hard and the toyota dealer will usually run specials I have seen it as low as 500 to 800ish + parts. don't go to lexus... lol. you may have to convince toyota to do it they usually work on the 4.7 and not the 4.0 since it didn't come in a toyota, but they are similar enough and they can get all the parts to do the job. either that or a trusted independent shop is your best value.
If it came down to having to do the headgasket on a 1uz, I would get another running 1uz and do the timing and waterpump on it and change the starter and then drop it in and take the old one apart. the cost of properly repairing a BHG due to an overheat would be many times what the cost of replacement is, and you could even probably get a 1JZ swap done for the same coin.
never put any kind of stop leak stuff into your motor, they never work and usually mean you will break more things as it hardens in passages its not supposed to.
sometimes a small crack is hard to pin point, and the problem is that it usually won't leak till the pressure starts to build and at that point you are driving along and wont notice it sprayed out all the ecxess and by the time you have stopped its at the level where its not going to push much more out.
I would still do a compression test from the water in cylinder number 2 part, but on a 1uz you can get away with low compression in a cylinder or 2 for quite a while sometimes not even knowing it.
water pump and timing belt on the v8 aren't that hard and the toyota dealer will usually run specials I have seen it as low as 500 to 800ish + parts. don't go to lexus... lol. you may have to convince toyota to do it they usually work on the 4.7 and not the 4.0 since it didn't come in a toyota, but they are similar enough and they can get all the parts to do the job. either that or a trusted independent shop is your best value.
If it came down to having to do the headgasket on a 1uz, I would get another running 1uz and do the timing and waterpump on it and change the starter and then drop it in and take the old one apart. the cost of properly repairing a BHG due to an overheat would be many times what the cost of replacement is, and you could even probably get a 1JZ swap done for the same coin.
07-10-13, 01:18 PM
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Thank you sir, very helpful advice. I know what to look for now.
good thing they caught it in time or it could have been your headgasket if it overheated a few more times.
never put any kind of stop leak stuff into your motor, they never work and usually mean you will break more things as it hardens in passages its not supposed to.
sometimes a small crack is hard to pin point, and the problem is that it usually won't leak till the pressure starts to build and at that point you are driving along and wont notice it sprayed out all the ecxess and by the time you have stopped its at the level where its not going to push much more out.
I would still do a compression test from the water in cylinder number 2 part, but on a 1uz you can get away with low compression in a cylinder or 2 for quite a while sometimes not even knowing it.
water pump and timing belt on the v8 aren't that hard and the toyota dealer will usually run specials I have seen it as low as 500 to 800ish + parts. don't go to lexus... lol. you may have to convince toyota to do it they usually work on the 4.7 and not the 4.0 since it didn't come in a toyota, but they are similar enough and they can get all the parts to do the job. either that or a trusted independent shop is your best value.
If it came down to having to do the headgasket on a 1uz, I would get another running 1uz and do the timing and waterpump on it and change the starter and then drop it in and take the old one apart. the cost of properly repairing a BHG due to an overheat would be many times what the cost of replacement is, and you could even probably get a 1JZ swap done for the same coin.
never put any kind of stop leak stuff into your motor, they never work and usually mean you will break more things as it hardens in passages its not supposed to.
sometimes a small crack is hard to pin point, and the problem is that it usually won't leak till the pressure starts to build and at that point you are driving along and wont notice it sprayed out all the ecxess and by the time you have stopped its at the level where its not going to push much more out.
I would still do a compression test from the water in cylinder number 2 part, but on a 1uz you can get away with low compression in a cylinder or 2 for quite a while sometimes not even knowing it.
water pump and timing belt on the v8 aren't that hard and the toyota dealer will usually run specials I have seen it as low as 500 to 800ish + parts. don't go to lexus... lol. you may have to convince toyota to do it they usually work on the 4.7 and not the 4.0 since it didn't come in a toyota, but they are similar enough and they can get all the parts to do the job. either that or a trusted independent shop is your best value.
If it came down to having to do the headgasket on a 1uz, I would get another running 1uz and do the timing and waterpump on it and change the starter and then drop it in and take the old one apart. the cost of properly repairing a BHG due to an overheat would be many times what the cost of replacement is, and you could even probably get a 1JZ swap done for the same coin.
07-11-13, 06:02 PM
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