Another alternative for the R154?
05-03-13, 01:35 PM
#17
Ali, yeah, I was about to post here again regarding your conclusions on the Colorado trans. There did seem to be some advantages but as you stated in your posts at the time, there are several unknowns.
The tranny mount and shifter are the easiest parts, as you say. It's that tail housing and the custom front driveshaft (or full driveshaft) that it would need.
The interesting bits of those unknowns is whether or not one or two things could be swapped from the Colorado trans and bolted into the Solstice trans to make the swap easier before fabbing. Notably you mentioned the cage-style shifter in the Colorado trans vs the Solstice's remote/tripod style. And I have to wonder if the shifter mount top location is still similar between most R154's and AR-5's.
When you say "the cage of an R154" are you referring to the top shifter mechanism bolt location or are you referring to the entire tail section of the later R154 vs the AR-5?
I was put off by the sheer amount of custom work the CD009 350Z transmission needs to be swapped in. I forget the reason but it wouldn't work in an IS300 due to clearance issues. I digress, different car but it might be relevant.
The tranny mount and shifter are the easiest parts, as you say. It's that tail housing and the custom front driveshaft (or full driveshaft) that it would need.
The interesting bits of those unknowns is whether or not one or two things could be swapped from the Colorado trans and bolted into the Solstice trans to make the swap easier before fabbing. Notably you mentioned the cage-style shifter in the Colorado trans vs the Solstice's remote/tripod style. And I have to wonder if the shifter mount top location is still similar between most R154's and AR-5's.
When you say "the cage of an R154" are you referring to the top shifter mechanism bolt location or are you referring to the entire tail section of the later R154 vs the AR-5?
I was put off by the sheer amount of custom work the CD009 350Z transmission needs to be swapped in. I forget the reason but it wouldn't work in an IS300 due to clearance issues. I digress, different car but it might be relevant.
I meant I think the colorado has no cage or no remote tripod (I use them interchangeabley), so the shifter is like a r154 from a mk3 supra, you know the oldschool kind, and the 4x4's have a transfer case shifter as well I cant remember if its front shift or top shift if its a front shift transfer case it would be weird to try and use that trans in non 4x4 as well, you would at the least want a 2wd trans from a colorado but when I looked into it it was actually much harder to start from the colorado trans.
I think the length of the r154 and ar5 is probably very similar, I think its just the tripod on it is really long. but I would think it can be modified to work if the ones from the later r154 doesn't bolt onto it, but it could happen. For example in a solstice you can bolt a 2jzgte to the solstice trans in the stock position with stock 2jzgte motor mounts. coincidence?? or just alot of reused designs.
Yeah, I thought it would happen sooner or later but no ones taken the challenge. I may be up for it when I do my trans swap but I keep putting it off. Have to extend a shifter on a r154 anyways unless you get a soarer model so might as well do some custom shifter work. I have a feeling it will be close to the original trans mount as well, but its hard to tell someone does it.
05-04-13, 10:09 PM
#18
I took another look at the colorado MA5 trans, looks like it actually may be worth trying if the tail end is different because that type of driveshaft may not suffer from the same oil seal problem as the regular r154. so you would just need a custom driveshaft or see if we can find one that is the right length. it kind of looks funny not sure how it works on these but I found a pic of the trans.
See how it has the older type shifter also, looks like it will be short question is how much.
from this page with some more info on the trans http://lsxe36m3.com/2011/02/05/transmission-options/
r154 on top and w58 remote shifter on bottom from this thread https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...c400-swap.html
See how it has the older type shifter also, looks like it will be short question is how much.
from this page with some more info on the trans http://lsxe36m3.com/2011/02/05/transmission-options/
r154 on top and w58 remote shifter on bottom from this thread https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...c400-swap.html
Last edited by Ali SC3; 05-04-13 at 10:18 PM.
05-05-13, 09:41 AM
#20
Ali, the tail housings look very, very similar but what I read about an internal bearing not lining up correctly bothers me. That and I don't think it's possible to obtain an R154 tail housing from Toyota any longer.
The shifter position is totally unique to the Colorado transmission. That is going to require some custom welding and possibly even raising. The trouble that I see is that the shifter retaining plate doesn't have much material to weld with. It's very flat and has only four bolts. It is as if GM talked to Aisin with exacting specifications and asked them to find a new solution to the tail housing, output shaft and shifter retainer in the cheapest way possible. I'm not suggesting it isn't strong-- it just looks like it was made to exacting specifications for ONE vehicle application.
Contrast that with the R154 2WD transmission that was used in several high performance Toyotas and which made allowance to move the shifter location for each vehicle application if necessary.
I'm not trying to hurt this idea, just making observations.
The shifter position is totally unique to the Colorado transmission. That is going to require some custom welding and possibly even raising. The trouble that I see is that the shifter retaining plate doesn't have much material to weld with. It's very flat and has only four bolts. It is as if GM talked to Aisin with exacting specifications and asked them to find a new solution to the tail housing, output shaft and shifter retainer in the cheapest way possible. I'm not suggesting it isn't strong-- it just looks like it was made to exacting specifications for ONE vehicle application.
Contrast that with the R154 2WD transmission that was used in several high performance Toyotas and which made allowance to move the shifter location for each vehicle application if necessary.
I'm not trying to hurt this idea, just making observations.
05-05-13, 07:23 PM
#21
yeah, that makes sense to me, I really don't recognize the drive shaft configuration and it really doesn't look like its as strong as the bolt on or spline method. Also since there isn't a place to extend the housing, you would be stuck just trying to extend the shifter and it looks like it may be raised up alot.
So the solstice trans before the interim design change seems like the way to go.
So the solstice trans before the interim design change seems like the way to go.
05-05-13, 07:52 PM
#22
Yep. But with only three model years to go from I wonder how plentiful they actually are compared to MKIII Turbo R154's. The good news is, I guess, that even a 2005 to early 2007 non-turbo Solstice transmission will be the same thing so perhaps there won't be as much "performance tax" until people catch on.
05-13-13, 07:26 PM
#24
I'm pretty bummed-- I just missed out on two different MKIII R154's that were selling locally. Timing is everything I guess.
Anyway, I found this thread in case it is of help. It explains concisely what vehicles the AX15 came in. Apparently the Dodge Dakota V6 from 90-98 also had it as an option. We now know this isn't the right Aisin transmission we need but for the sake of being methodical about all information related to R154 variants...
http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/16317-r154-5-speed/
Interestingly, only 94-98 Jeep/Dodge AX-15's use a slave cylinder. The older versions use a hydraulic throwout bearing.
Anyway, I found this thread in case it is of help. It explains concisely what vehicles the AX15 came in. Apparently the Dodge Dakota V6 from 90-98 also had it as an option. We now know this isn't the right Aisin transmission we need but for the sake of being methodical about all information related to R154 variants...
http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/16317-r154-5-speed/
Interestingly, only 94-98 Jeep/Dodge AX-15's use a slave cylinder. The older versions use a hydraulic throwout bearing.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 05-13-13 at 07:30 PM.
07-14-13, 06:23 PM
#25
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bumping this thread to drop some knowledge on the AR-5 swap, I have it done to my car. Unfortunately some of the measurements will be skewed since its in a BMW M3.
Ive seen some of you getting mixed up on which one is spline and which has the guibo.
The colorado has a spline fitment and uses standard GM small truck spline (want to say its 27 spline but that is just a number that sticks out in the top of my head)
The solstice uses a guibo and bolts. Its not all bad since BMW people use it with good success under power, However you will have to add it as a constant maintenance item.
The colorado has shorter 1-3 gear that the r154 and a longer 5th. its not as tight as the ar5 in the solstice and the shift to 3 is kind of noticeable difference in acceleration but you wont suffer as much of a drop in 4th gear as the solstice trans.
The Bell housing swap is extremely straight forward since its the same bolt pattern and carries over.
You will need to modify the input shaft by: Read this slowly and multiple times. Taking the Beginning of the SPLINED section down to the RADIUS OF THE BEARING SURFACE a total of 5MM FROM THE START OF THE SPLINES and then chamfer the end of the splines
^that does not equate to taking a die grinder and simply cutting off the end of the input shaft. You will need to take off the input shaft ,which is a couple hours worth of work, and get the shaft ground down.
Souther grind down here in S.FL did mine but any precision grinder that can grind hardened tool steel can do it.
The tail shaft is easy and with the same design as mine can fit a mk3 supra since the lengths to the hole of the shifter is almost identical to the M3
This is it beside the R154 shifter to shifter. i only took a pics of the beginning but the phone that i had the pictures died in a tub full of transfluid before i got to upload them,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41592677@N05/8317419070/http://www.flickr.com/photos/41592677@N05/8317419070/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/41592677@N05/, on Flickr
inside of the shifter section of the AR5 isn't much, so you can cut the top of the tail housing bring it back to the r154's shifter position then make a rod as if it was the extension piece for the r154 shifter to place the cup in thr right position and fit the shifter.
This is a case of Measure 5 times and cut once with precision. I had it cut with a steadied band saw from a local exhaust builder for 20 dollars. Props to Manic tech as well for taking my paper drawings and measurements turning it into reality.
The pilot bearings is from a BMW M50
The PP and Flywheel and you can either get a clutch from an s10 (the 40 dollar organic held 290 lbs ft of tq before i took it out ) or just respline the center of the clutch of your choice
it more then likely takes more to modify the Colorado AR5 but the trans are more plentiful and cheaper as a result and you also get a splined shaft Plus do this modification once and you can just transfer your parts to the new ones. Also im 99.99% sure marlin crawler shifter forks will work with this.
My review of the trans: Shifts like butter from stop and go and racing. Also i doubt there is a short shifter on the market that is much shorter then these throws. 1st to 2nd gear is so smooth and fast from a launch that i have actually thought ive missed the gear because i never felt it go into 2nd.I actually think it throws its self into second gear from just pressing the clutch but still gives a very direct feel.
2nd and 3rd gear ratios are a bit spaced apart for my liking but it makes third a very versatile gear but if there are big turbo guys that are on the edge of there power band at all times they wont like 2nd to third gear. In 5th the car cruised very similar to an r154 i dropped maybe 100-200 rpm at 80 mph. ended up picking up 2-3 more mpg though on average which i think its a combo of the shorter gearing around town so not needing as much throttle for the same acceleration and the slight long 5th on the highway.
Dont let the numbers fool you though, the gearing makes a drastic difference and made the car feel substantially quicker and a lot more fun everywhere. I haven't pushed it for strength but its standing up to a supercharged LS7 in a solstice so i think its got the 1jz covered.
Went threw some headaches but considering i had a very small base of info to start from it wasn't that bad. I wanted to throw in a 350z transmission (which is up for sale now WITH SLIP YOKE if anyone wants it) but decided to stick with the ar5 because of ease. The ar5 is absolutely the R154 replacement if you willing to put some 1 time only work into it and for 300 dollars for a low miles one you can buy it, modify and end up at the same price as an r154 and enjoy better gearing to boot.
Ive seen some of you getting mixed up on which one is spline and which has the guibo.
The colorado has a spline fitment and uses standard GM small truck spline (want to say its 27 spline but that is just a number that sticks out in the top of my head)
The solstice uses a guibo and bolts. Its not all bad since BMW people use it with good success under power, However you will have to add it as a constant maintenance item.
The colorado has shorter 1-3 gear that the r154 and a longer 5th. its not as tight as the ar5 in the solstice and the shift to 3 is kind of noticeable difference in acceleration but you wont suffer as much of a drop in 4th gear as the solstice trans.
The Bell housing swap is extremely straight forward since its the same bolt pattern and carries over.
You will need to modify the input shaft by: Read this slowly and multiple times. Taking the Beginning of the SPLINED section down to the RADIUS OF THE BEARING SURFACE a total of 5MM FROM THE START OF THE SPLINES and then chamfer the end of the splines
^that does not equate to taking a die grinder and simply cutting off the end of the input shaft. You will need to take off the input shaft ,which is a couple hours worth of work, and get the shaft ground down.
Souther grind down here in S.FL did mine but any precision grinder that can grind hardened tool steel can do it.
The tail shaft is easy and with the same design as mine can fit a mk3 supra since the lengths to the hole of the shifter is almost identical to the M3
This is it beside the R154 shifter to shifter. i only took a pics of the beginning but the phone that i had the pictures died in a tub full of transfluid before i got to upload them,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41592677@N05/8317419070/http://www.flickr.com/photos/41592677@N05/8317419070/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/41592677@N05/, on Flickr
inside of the shifter section of the AR5 isn't much, so you can cut the top of the tail housing bring it back to the r154's shifter position then make a rod as if it was the extension piece for the r154 shifter to place the cup in thr right position and fit the shifter.
This is a case of Measure 5 times and cut once with precision. I had it cut with a steadied band saw from a local exhaust builder for 20 dollars. Props to Manic tech as well for taking my paper drawings and measurements turning it into reality.
The pilot bearings is from a BMW M50
The PP and Flywheel and you can either get a clutch from an s10 (the 40 dollar organic held 290 lbs ft of tq before i took it out ) or just respline the center of the clutch of your choice
it more then likely takes more to modify the Colorado AR5 but the trans are more plentiful and cheaper as a result and you also get a splined shaft Plus do this modification once and you can just transfer your parts to the new ones. Also im 99.99% sure marlin crawler shifter forks will work with this.
My review of the trans: Shifts like butter from stop and go and racing. Also i doubt there is a short shifter on the market that is much shorter then these throws. 1st to 2nd gear is so smooth and fast from a launch that i have actually thought ive missed the gear because i never felt it go into 2nd.I actually think it throws its self into second gear from just pressing the clutch but still gives a very direct feel.
2nd and 3rd gear ratios are a bit spaced apart for my liking but it makes third a very versatile gear but if there are big turbo guys that are on the edge of there power band at all times they wont like 2nd to third gear. In 5th the car cruised very similar to an r154 i dropped maybe 100-200 rpm at 80 mph. ended up picking up 2-3 more mpg though on average which i think its a combo of the shorter gearing around town so not needing as much throttle for the same acceleration and the slight long 5th on the highway.
Dont let the numbers fool you though, the gearing makes a drastic difference and made the car feel substantially quicker and a lot more fun everywhere. I haven't pushed it for strength but its standing up to a supercharged LS7 in a solstice so i think its got the 1jz covered.
Went threw some headaches but considering i had a very small base of info to start from it wasn't that bad. I wanted to throw in a 350z transmission (which is up for sale now WITH SLIP YOKE if anyone wants it) but decided to stick with the ar5 because of ease. The ar5 is absolutely the R154 replacement if you willing to put some 1 time only work into it and for 300 dollars for a low miles one you can buy it, modify and end up at the same price as an r154 and enjoy better gearing to boot.
07-14-13, 06:30 PM
#26
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Oh and Yes the bolt pattern for the tail housings are the same and NO it will not work just swapping tail housing on the colorado Ar5. The output shaft stick out the back. no idea if it will work on the solstice though but with no slip yoke section i doubt it will work.
07-14-13, 07:08 PM
#27
for some reason I thought it was the other way around from seeing that ball on the back of the colorado trans.
so does that part slide into it and its actually a spline? will a toyota shaft work and just need to shorten/lengthen you think?
I wish we had pictures of the tail housings of each trans. do you have any pics of the completed modification to the shifter on the colorado trans?
I still like the idea of using the ratios from the solstice, but shortening the shifter sounds harder than lengthening one making the colorado trans look better.
so does that part slide into it and its actually a spline? will a toyota shaft work and just need to shorten/lengthen you think?
I wish we had pictures of the tail housings of each trans. do you have any pics of the completed modification to the shifter on the colorado trans?
I still like the idea of using the ratios from the solstice, but shortening the shifter sounds harder than lengthening one making the colorado trans look better.
07-14-13, 08:10 PM
#28
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for some reason I thought it was the other way around from seeing that ball on the back of the colorado trans.
so does that part slide into it and its actually a spline? will a toyota shaft work and just need to shorten/lengthen you think?
I wish we had pictures of the tail housings of each trans. do you have any pics of the completed modification to the shifter on the colorado trans?
I still like the idea of using the ratios from the solstice, but shortening the shifter sounds harder than lengthening one making the colorado trans look better.
so does that part slide into it and its actually a spline? will a toyota shaft work and just need to shorten/lengthen you think?
I wish we had pictures of the tail housings of each trans. do you have any pics of the completed modification to the shifter on the colorado trans?
I still like the idea of using the ratios from the solstice, but shortening the shifter sounds harder than lengthening one making the colorado trans look better.
yeah it pushes straight in, i didnt think anything could fit in there either but its just an extremely tight dust shield. You can actually pop the whole thing out. I believe I sent the text to some before my phone took its bath so they might still have them. You cant use the toyota slip yoke its a gm small truck spline that is found a bunch of rwd gm vehicles. The driveshaft has be be shorten around 2 inches from what i remember.
07-22-13, 07:20 AM
#30
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No i definitely think its easier on the solstice but its a sacrifice of having less available transmissions and redoing a drive shaft set up for a guibo is all. you really cant go wrong either way, its comes down to what characteristics you want the car to have.