GTE Swap vs NA-T for 600+whp
11-27-11, 08:11 AM
#16
stock bottom end is good for much more than 600hp.
over stock hp levels, you actually do not want oil squirters in the block.
The GTE was really designed very well to be reliable in its factory form. that doesnt mean that you can double or triple the stock hp and say the oil squirters are still a good thing. Go read on the DSM forums maybe.
With more and more boost the temps get so high that its actually better not to squirt much colder oil onto a burning hot piston as the quick contrast can weaken it. its sort of like getting glass really hot, then putting it under cold water, the contrast alone can crack/break the glass, but if you heat it slowly or cool it slowly to the same extreme temperatures, nothing happens to the glass.
the pistons are forged and can withstand those temperatures anyways, what they cannot stand is the sudden temperature changes from the oil squirters. the oil pressure is better used elsewhere, and oil temps will probably be better off as well.
over stock hp levels, you actually do not want oil squirters in the block.
The GTE was really designed very well to be reliable in its factory form. that doesnt mean that you can double or triple the stock hp and say the oil squirters are still a good thing. Go read on the DSM forums maybe.
With more and more boost the temps get so high that its actually better not to squirt much colder oil onto a burning hot piston as the quick contrast can weaken it. its sort of like getting glass really hot, then putting it under cold water, the contrast alone can crack/break the glass, but if you heat it slowly or cool it slowly to the same extreme temperatures, nothing happens to the glass.
the pistons are forged and can withstand those temperatures anyways, what they cannot stand is the sudden temperature changes from the oil squirters. the oil pressure is better used elsewhere, and oil temps will probably be better off as well.
11-27-11, 12:28 PM
#19
gte & na-t
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Op You want na-t with 600rwhp on pump gas, R154 and all the goodies ! It seems to me like you have done some of your homework .
Talk to the member "Lexforlife" he has a very nice setup , you can actually just copy his setup and go from there.
No BL 2.5 mm headgasket will be needed if you want a responsive and vicious setup , TT headgasket will do fine with an EMS and the Right supporting mods.
I had a 600hp na-t last year and if you plain on driving that car everyday depending on what clutch you buy , but you will more than likely have a crankwalk, broken a couple R154s, Broken pressure plates trust me on this.I am telling you from experience not what i've heard.
Just giving you a heads up on what you are getting yourself into
600rwhp is cake on na-t setups if you don't cheap out on the most important parts that's needed.
Talk to the member "Lexforlife" he has a very nice setup , you can actually just copy his setup and go from there.
No BL 2.5 mm headgasket will be needed if you want a responsive and vicious setup , TT headgasket will do fine with an EMS and the Right supporting mods.
I had a 600hp na-t last year and if you plain on driving that car everyday depending on what clutch you buy , but you will more than likely have a crankwalk, broken a couple R154s, Broken pressure plates trust me on this.I am telling you from experience not what i've heard.
Just giving you a heads up on what you are getting yourself into
600rwhp is cake on na-t setups if you don't cheap out on the most important parts that's needed.
11-27-11, 08:08 PM
#20
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Op You want na-t with 600rwhp on pump gas, R154 and all the goodies ! It seems to me like you have done some of your homework .
Talk to the member "Lexforlife" he has a very nice setup , you can actually just copy his setup and go from there.
No BL 2.5 mm headgasket will be needed if you want a responsive and vicious setup , TT headgasket will do fine with an EMS and the Right supporting mods.
I had a 600hp na-t last year and if you plain on driving that car everyday depending on what clutch you buy , but you will more than likely have a crankwalk, broken a couple R154s, Broken pressure plates trust me on this.I am telling you from experience not what i've heard.
Just giving you a heads up on what you are getting yourself into
600rwhp is cake on na-t setups if you don't cheap out on the most important parts that's needed.
Talk to the member "Lexforlife" he has a very nice setup , you can actually just copy his setup and go from there.
No BL 2.5 mm headgasket will be needed if you want a responsive and vicious setup , TT headgasket will do fine with an EMS and the Right supporting mods.
I had a 600hp na-t last year and if you plain on driving that car everyday depending on what clutch you buy , but you will more than likely have a crankwalk, broken a couple R154s, Broken pressure plates trust me on this.I am telling you from experience not what i've heard.
Just giving you a heads up on what you are getting yourself into
600rwhp is cake on na-t setups if you don't cheap out on the most important parts that's needed.
Thanks for the tip on Lexforlife, Looks like a great model to follow.
It looks like the TT HG will be good too, nice. Thanks for the tip about problems I would probably see daily driving it. In that case I might plan on finding a cheaper daily while I build this one, you're the only one who brought it up
I'm thinking of installing the TT HG, and head studs in one go, then the r154, and then the turbo conversion being the next mod afterwords, then the fuel system. How does this sound to you guys? I'm saving little by little on a students budget so, it'd be good to be able install everything over a period of time rather than all at once.
As for manifolds, we should be able to use most things made for Supra Conversions, correct?
11-27-11, 08:23 PM
#21
Haha I've been trying to do my homework. I'm 16 so what I don't know right now I try to make up with research.
Thanks for the tip on Lexforlife, Looks like a great model to follow.
It looks like the TT HG will be good too, nice. Thanks for the tip about problems I would probably see daily driving it. In that case I might plan on finding a cheaper daily while I build this one, you're the only one who brought it up
I'm thinking of installing the TT HG, and head studs in one go, then the r154, and then the turbo conversion being the next mod afterwords, then the fuel system. How does this sound to you guys? I'm saving little by little on a students budget so, it'd be good to be able install everything over a period of time rather than all at once.
As for manifolds, we should be able to use most things made for Supra Conversions, correct?
Thanks for the tip on Lexforlife, Looks like a great model to follow.
It looks like the TT HG will be good too, nice. Thanks for the tip about problems I would probably see daily driving it. In that case I might plan on finding a cheaper daily while I build this one, you're the only one who brought it up
I'm thinking of installing the TT HG, and head studs in one go, then the r154, and then the turbo conversion being the next mod afterwords, then the fuel system. How does this sound to you guys? I'm saving little by little on a students budget so, it'd be good to be able install everything over a period of time rather than all at once.
As for manifolds, we should be able to use most things made for Supra Conversions, correct?
You will need to make sure you buy a manifold for the GE motor....the GTE turbo manifolds are different so those won't work with a GE head. A few options for the GE are: eBay manifold, BoostLogic manifold, DriftMotion (Which I've been told is basically eBay manifold), Full-Race (This is probably the best quality...but at over $1500 it's pricey). There are more too, but those are the common ones that I found when researching and they were the ones I was considering.
11-28-11, 08:37 PM
#22
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That sounds like a good plan of attack...I'd probably personally do the R154 conversion first...then save up for the turbo conversion/supporting mods and do that at once.....you can't do the turbo without the fuel system being upgraded and then you will also need some sort of tuning tool....it's a viscous cycle...lol.
You will need to make sure you buy a manifold for the GE motor....the GTE turbo manifolds are different so those won't work with a GE head. A few options for the GE are: eBay manifold, BoostLogic manifold, DriftMotion (Which I've been told is basically eBay manifold), Full-Race (This is probably the best quality...but at over $1500 it's pricey). There are more too, but those are the common ones that I found when researching and they were the ones I was considering.
You will need to make sure you buy a manifold for the GE motor....the GTE turbo manifolds are different so those won't work with a GE head. A few options for the GE are: eBay manifold, BoostLogic manifold, DriftMotion (Which I've been told is basically eBay manifold), Full-Race (This is probably the best quality...but at over $1500 it's pricey). There are more too, but those are the common ones that I found when researching and they were the ones I was considering.
Again, any advice is welcome
Edit: Found this cool little chart. Does look like it's for an EVO but it looks like parallel is the way to go whether you're doing dual in-tank, dual external, or one of each. But if anyone has any personal experience with these I would love to know their experiences with them, if they were overall difficult, etc.
Last edited by Moula; 11-29-11 at 03:53 AM.
12-05-11, 09:07 PM
#23
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These is some good advice in this thread . If you're looking for a R154, try to get a Toyota Soarer R154 (same year) as they are direct fit in our SC300 cars and I put a small tutorial with pics on http://www.clubna-t.com. I think the main determining factor for you should be motor health. Compare the compression / leak down #'s of both motors (your 2jz-ge and jdm 2jz-gte) and whichever has better health should be the best way to go in my opinion. Good luck and enjoy the outcome in a safe manner!
. If you're looking for a R154, try to get a Toyota Soarer R154 (same year) as they are direct fit in our SC300 cars and I put a small tutorial with pics on http://www.clubna-t.com. I think the main determining factor for you should be motor health. Compare the compression / leak down #'s of both motors (your 2jz-ge and jdm 2jz-gte) and whichever has better health should be the best way to go in my opinion. Good luck and enjoy the outcome in a safe manner!
12-05-11, 10:22 PM
#24
it is common knowledge if you are going single turbo, it is cheaper to just use your GE motor, and you will gain more power because with a TT headgasket on a ge your compression ratio will be a little higher than a gte, which is a good thing especially with a standalone, which you can afford right away compared to a swap.
Thanks for the input guys. Confirmed my research I did last night, going with NA-T.
As for the head gasket, I believe someone said a stock TT headgasket would be good, they're 1.3mm correct? which would give me a compression of about 9.2:1. would 9.2:1 be better than 8.5:1 with a 2.5mm boost logic head gasket?
As for the head gasket, I believe someone said a stock TT headgasket would be good, they're 1.3mm correct? which would give me a compression of about 9.2:1. would 9.2:1 be better than 8.5:1 with a 2.5mm boost logic head gasket?
stock bottom end is good for much more than 600hp.
over stock hp levels, you actually do not want oil squirters in the block.
The GTE was really designed very well to be reliable in its factory form. that doesnt mean that you can double or triple the stock hp and say the oil squirters are still a good thing. Go read on the DSM forums maybe.
With more and more boost the temps get so high that its actually better not to squirt much colder oil onto a burning hot piston as the quick contrast can weaken it. its sort of like getting glass really hot, then putting it under cold water, the contrast alone can crack/break the glass, but if you heat it slowly or cool it slowly to the same extreme temperatures, nothing happens to the glass.
the pistons are forged and can withstand those temperatures anyways, what they cannot stand is the sudden temperature changes from the oil squirters. the oil pressure is better used elsewhere, and oil temps will probably be better off as well.
over stock hp levels, you actually do not want oil squirters in the block.
The GTE was really designed very well to be reliable in its factory form. that doesnt mean that you can double or triple the stock hp and say the oil squirters are still a good thing. Go read on the DSM forums maybe.
With more and more boost the temps get so high that its actually better not to squirt much colder oil onto a burning hot piston as the quick contrast can weaken it. its sort of like getting glass really hot, then putting it under cold water, the contrast alone can crack/break the glass, but if you heat it slowly or cool it slowly to the same extreme temperatures, nothing happens to the glass.
the pistons are forged and can withstand those temperatures anyways, what they cannot stand is the sudden temperature changes from the oil squirters. the oil pressure is better used elsewhere, and oil temps will probably be better off as well.
OP- sorry not to hijack ur thread but im just in the same research stage as you. Even enduring the whole student budget and babysteps as you. I think if you wanna go bit by bit, do tranny then standalone, then turbo(and friend mods) as last step.. should split the cost up into 3 managable portions. Thats my plan atleast.. but im not going 600 hp so no tranny for me. Can the W58 handle 400whp?
12-05-11, 10:52 PM
#25
Higher compression is always better, but also is more prone to detonation (hence the part about the standalone, where good tuning comes into play).
Oil squirters are good for cooling the pistons... to a point.... As Ali said, people delete them frequently, in their quest for "MOAR POWAR!!!!!1111one".
Oil squirters are good for cooling the pistons... to a point.... As Ali said, people delete them frequently, in their quest for "MOAR POWAR!!!!!1111one".
12-06-11, 12:16 AM
#26
Ok i get that concept.. So with higher engine compression(9.5:1), lower boost levels are required to achieve the balance of a lower compression(8:1)? With my sc, 400 hp daily driver goal is in mind, would the extra penny for squirters be worth it?
Thanks for answers btw!
Thanks for answers btw!
12-06-11, 06:03 AM
#27
gte & na-t
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oIL squiters doesn't add any power and bone stock ge will do just fine.
Higher Compression is better if you have the right supporting mods ( E85,Standalone,Great tuner) otherwise don't try it because it will detonate.
Higher more power at a lower psi level compare to 8.5.1 which is the gte compression or someone using the BL 2.5mm headgasket.
Ethanol and methanol can take significantly higher compression ratios than gasoline. Racing engines burning methanol and ethanol fuel often incorporate a CR of 14.5-16:1.
On my first na-t setup on my lowest boost setting which was 14 psi my car made 476rwhp on pump gas 93 and 469wtq using the stock tt headgasket with AEM EMS.
For 4/500rwhp the stock tt denso pump will do it , i did it on a single Walbro 2 years ago with the stock fuel lines, rail, stock fpr.
I used walbro because that's what everyone was using but i'll never use it again because it's not the best flowing pump out there and i didn't know much about pumps at that time.
Manifold ,
ebay manifold will work fine but make sure you clean the slags out of the manifold and that will do it. Now depending on what turbo you are running you must choose the right manifold.
I used an xs power manifold on my pte billet 6765 with 81AR it worked great, now with the same manifold but a different turbo BW Turbo will not fit i spend about $800 modifying that manifold ! i first thought it needed a slight modification but it didn't work like that.
If i would known this from the get go i would have kept my BL na-t manifold .
turbo
You got pay to play i don't like cheap a** turbo spend $300 and buy a real deal and you will be happy with it.
Now how to choose the right turbo for your application.
POWER:
Think in horsepower not boost.
Boost is just a number that you will have to run on your engine to make a certain horsepower.
How much power do you want to make? Be realistic, the more accurate that you are, the better tuned your forced induction system will be.
Can your vehicle (not just the engine, but the entire setup) handle such power?
Remember the turbocharger is generally not the weakest link.
Forged pistons, connecting rods, head studs, etc.
“As much as possible” is not a goal.
INTENDED USAGE:
What are you using the vehicle for?
Race or street use?
The way that you will be using the vehicle dramatically changes the sizing of the turbocharger and intercooler needs.
Your choice of transmission type and gearing will greatly affect the performance and characteristics of the turbocharger, keep this in mind.
PACKAGING:
Will the turbocharger(s) fit in your vehicles space constraints? Consider using differently sized compressor housings to more easily fit a given location.
REMEMBER TO CHOOSE WISELY:
Most street/autocross/drift enthusiasts will prefer a smaller turbocharger due to its fast response. A turbo system equipped with a smaller turbocharger is generally considered more fun to drive. The tradeoff is the final power output of the setup. On another note, dedicated track cars are aimed for peak power over boost response. There’s no doubt track cars spend more time in the upper RPM than average street cars. So, a small sacrifice in boost response is offset by the huge power potential. Larger frame turbochargers are preferred by track car owners due to their maximum power capacity. For most street applications the best solution for selecting turbine wheels and turbine housings, is to choose the smallest wheel diameter available that meets the horsepower level wanted.
It is also important to remember that response/spool-up time is greatly affected by turbine wheel diameter and turbine housing A/R. The A/R sizing can be used as a tool to fine tune the response range in the RPM band. The smaller the A/R, the faster the turbocharger will be able to spool up from the increase in exhaust gas velocity entering the turbine housing. Backpressure has become a major tuning issue associated with high performance turbocharged engines and the turbine wheel and turbine housing A/R are both critical to maximizing the performance of the turbo system. Backpressure is the pressure that the exhaust gas generates trying to enter into the turbine housing inlet. If backpressure becomes too great (a 2:1 ratio), the exhaust gases can not escape the cylinder head and can possibly cause major tuning, performance and durability issues. It is important to try to keep the backpressure to boost pressure ratio as low as possible and should be no greater than 1.5:1 for best performance (Example: 15 psi of boost to 22.5 psi of backpressure).
Higher Compression is better if you have the right supporting mods ( E85,Standalone,Great tuner) otherwise don't try it because it will detonate.
Higher more power at a lower psi level compare to 8.5.1 which is the gte compression or someone using the BL 2.5mm headgasket.
Ethanol and methanol can take significantly higher compression ratios than gasoline. Racing engines burning methanol and ethanol fuel often incorporate a CR of 14.5-16:1.
On my first na-t setup on my lowest boost setting which was 14 psi my car made 476rwhp on pump gas 93 and 469wtq using the stock tt headgasket with AEM EMS.
For 4/500rwhp the stock tt denso pump will do it , i did it on a single Walbro 2 years ago with the stock fuel lines, rail, stock fpr.
I used walbro because that's what everyone was using but i'll never use it again because it's not the best flowing pump out there and i didn't know much about pumps at that time.
Manifold ,
ebay manifold will work fine but make sure you clean the slags out of the manifold and that will do it. Now depending on what turbo you are running you must choose the right manifold.
I used an xs power manifold on my pte billet 6765 with 81AR it worked great, now with the same manifold but a different turbo BW Turbo will not fit i spend about $800 modifying that manifold ! i first thought it needed a slight modification but it didn't work like that.
If i would known this from the get go i would have kept my BL na-t manifold .
turbo
You got pay to play i don't like cheap a** turbo spend $300 and buy a real deal and you will be happy with it.
Now how to choose the right turbo for your application.
POWER:
Think in horsepower not boost.
Boost is just a number that you will have to run on your engine to make a certain horsepower.
How much power do you want to make? Be realistic, the more accurate that you are, the better tuned your forced induction system will be.
Can your vehicle (not just the engine, but the entire setup) handle such power?
Remember the turbocharger is generally not the weakest link.
Forged pistons, connecting rods, head studs, etc.
“As much as possible” is not a goal.
INTENDED USAGE:
What are you using the vehicle for?
Race or street use?
The way that you will be using the vehicle dramatically changes the sizing of the turbocharger and intercooler needs.
Your choice of transmission type and gearing will greatly affect the performance and characteristics of the turbocharger, keep this in mind.
PACKAGING:
Will the turbocharger(s) fit in your vehicles space constraints? Consider using differently sized compressor housings to more easily fit a given location.
REMEMBER TO CHOOSE WISELY:
Most street/autocross/drift enthusiasts will prefer a smaller turbocharger due to its fast response. A turbo system equipped with a smaller turbocharger is generally considered more fun to drive. The tradeoff is the final power output of the setup. On another note, dedicated track cars are aimed for peak power over boost response. There’s no doubt track cars spend more time in the upper RPM than average street cars. So, a small sacrifice in boost response is offset by the huge power potential. Larger frame turbochargers are preferred by track car owners due to their maximum power capacity. For most street applications the best solution for selecting turbine wheels and turbine housings, is to choose the smallest wheel diameter available that meets the horsepower level wanted.
It is also important to remember that response/spool-up time is greatly affected by turbine wheel diameter and turbine housing A/R. The A/R sizing can be used as a tool to fine tune the response range in the RPM band. The smaller the A/R, the faster the turbocharger will be able to spool up from the increase in exhaust gas velocity entering the turbine housing. Backpressure has become a major tuning issue associated with high performance turbocharged engines and the turbine wheel and turbine housing A/R are both critical to maximizing the performance of the turbo system. Backpressure is the pressure that the exhaust gas generates trying to enter into the turbine housing inlet. If backpressure becomes too great (a 2:1 ratio), the exhaust gases can not escape the cylinder head and can possibly cause major tuning, performance and durability issues. It is important to try to keep the backpressure to boost pressure ratio as low as possible and should be no greater than 1.5:1 for best performance (Example: 15 psi of boost to 22.5 psi of backpressure).
12-06-11, 09:21 AM
#28
There are so many different ways to build a 2jz for each hp goal, Its hard say which is best.
You have to decide on your hp goal (short and longterm) and what you want to do with the car, regular driving, drag, drift, etc.
If you are shooting for 600hp, you can do that with a TT headgasket (~9.2:1)all day on a na-t setup.
If you want 3-400hp, you could pull that off on the stock compression ratio, but poeple like the added safety of the TT headgasket.
lowering your compression is all about safety on pump gas, but some take it too far and end up loosing power in the end.
The more boost you run, the longer it takes to spool, and the less efficient your turbo becomes.
So while your engine can support more power at 8.5:1 compression, the rest of your setup will have to work much harder to get you there and will not spool as quickly as if you have higher compression.
I see alot of people who have average 500hp goals and people tell them they have to use a 2.5mm headgasket to match GTE compression or open up their motor at great costs to install TT pistons and a TT headgasket. The fact is, you don't have to do that at all. You will have much more fun and make more power with just a TT headgasket and you can save that extra money for something you actually need.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 12-06-11 at 09:30 AM.
12-09-11, 03:02 AM
#29
Well i know oil squirters dont add hp, but do they make a reliability difference? worth the extra penny for a daily driver running 400hp?
Honestly if high hp was obtainable on a N/A with a students wallet, I would stay non turbo just for the responsiveness. SO, I'm gonna try the higher compression, stock gasket to start with.
Now im just wondering about ethonal, I was kinda looking to avoid it. I was wondering how would it be if i ran it on nonoxygenated gasoline(ethonal free unleaded)? I guess i could ask my tuner when i get there but thats a far way away and wanna learn more/get more opinions haha.
I'm not gonna cheap out on this by anymeans.. AEM management and new turbo for sure. But I would like to try the not gonna change it if its not broken(or needed) bit too. So if 400hp is possible from stock fuel pump and head gasket, then i'll take that route. But now injectors, do stock n/a ones suffice or would u need bigger?
Honestly if high hp was obtainable on a N/A with a students wallet, I would stay non turbo just for the responsiveness. SO, I'm gonna try the higher compression, stock gasket to start with.
Now im just wondering about ethonal, I was kinda looking to avoid it. I was wondering how would it be if i ran it on nonoxygenated gasoline(ethonal free unleaded)? I guess i could ask my tuner when i get there but thats a far way away and wanna learn more/get more opinions haha.
I'm not gonna cheap out on this by anymeans.. AEM management and new turbo for sure. But I would like to try the not gonna change it if its not broken(or needed) bit too. So if 400hp is possible from stock fuel pump and head gasket, then i'll take that route. But now injectors, do stock n/a ones suffice or would u need bigger?
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