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you have my attention ive been wondering about this myself. clutch flywheel combo would have to be figured out, and im sure just a custom bellhousing wouldnt be too hard to find.
you have my attention ive been wondering about this myself. clutch flywheel combo would have to be figured out, and im sure just a custom bellhousing wouldnt be too hard to find.
The problem I find with the T56 is while transmission gearing is better suited toward a V8 (less of a close ratio box) the actual gear ratios are suited for a large displacement V8.
For a 1UZ you would want the a T56 with a 3.36 (preferably) or 2.97 1st gear over the more common 2.66.
The biggest problem I see is the amount of money required for the custom bell-housing / adapter plate, driveshaft and most likely flywheel. Even if you did get it all running a stock '98 1UZ-FE VVT-i with the A650E would be faster. I think driving a standard/manual transmission vehicle is fun but what's the point if it's still slow. Plenty of Honda's come in stick.
This is why I'd opt for the W59 if possible. I generally cruise on the highways at around 75-80, which would put me over 3000 RPM on everything except the 3.27 or the 3.62. The W59 is nice because its got short gears designed for a truck. If you couple it with a less aggressive differential like the 3.27, it keeps the highway revs low while still keeping 1st and 2nd gear acceleration very snappy. Can anyone give me some honest input on the W59. Is it compatible? Is it reliable?
W59s came in 2wd and 4wd Tacomas with the 2.4/2.7 2/3rz. IIRC. I have one in in my solid axle swapped Taco with nearly 200k on the odo and I'm on the second clutch.
Supposedly the R series transmissions are quite a bit stronger.
Some guy on Race Dezert dropped a 1uzfe in his formerly 3rz powered Taco. Results were pleasing to say the least. I'll see if I can find the link.
The problem I find with the T56 is while transmission gearing is better suited toward a V8 (less of a close ratio box) the actual gear ratios are suited for a large displacement V8.
For a 1UZ you would want the a T56 with a 3.36 (preferably) or 2.97 1st gear over the more common 2.66.
The biggest problem I see is the amount of money required for the custom bell-housing / adapter plate, driveshaft and most likely flywheel. Even if you did get it all running a stock '98 1UZ-FE VVT-i with the A650E would be faster. I think driving a standard/manual transmission vehicle is fun but what's the point if it's still slow. Plenty of Honda's come in stick.
I'm not sure about it being faster stock. Mine ran 14's fully stock with a W58 at the same trap speed as the VVTI SC400's run.
EDIT: Looking at curb weights it also appears that the VVTI SC400 is around 300lbs heavier than my '93 before I shed weight with the swap to a W58. So that coupled with very reduced drive-train loss would make sense. Manual VVTI 1UZ would be sick. Those things pull to 7000 nicely.
out of that I would say maybe 10-15hp is the intake, VVT-i may only add 1-3hp for your peak power so I'd say the rest is reduced loss.
I think the VVT-i accounts for more than just 1-3 HP. For instance, on my first car, the 8th gen Corolla, vvt-i was installed for the year 2000 model without any other changes. The engine, transmission, and drivetrain were all keep the same as previous years. Engine power went from 120 to 125 HP, and torque from 122 to 126. Based on that, at least 1/3 of the gains between 1997 and 98 came from valve timing alone. Don't forget, this was also a time before SAE certified ratings. Prior to 2006, automakers could rate their engines without factoring in drivetrain loss.
Transmissions aren't the only factor in the equation when rating a car on dynos. Running a more aggressive differential with the same transmission can skew dyno results and give an engine "more power" because that power's rated at the wheels, not the crank. Scotturnot was able to dyno his car at 230 rwhp and 247 ft-lbs with his original 4-spd autobox. I think a good part of that was because he was running a 4.27 lsd
I considered the A650E, but if I was going to stay automatic, I might as well go for the bells and whistles, the A761E from the SC430. Its essentially the same as the A650E, but with a 6th higher gear which allows it to be coupled with a more aggressive differential. I assume its compatible to hook up with the 1UZ. What is the drivetrain loss like on the newer automatic trannys?
I'm wondering about the A650E, has anyone bolted a NON-VVTI 1UZFE to one? I know MattStarr has a build thread where he says he plans to run one with a 4.27 rear out of an SC300, but I have not seen any updates on it. I'm wondering if it is a plug and play swap. I've been reading alot and trying to decide what direction to go with my SC. So far I'm pretty sure I want to do the 4.7L block with 10:1 compression with kelford cams, and wolf ems. Not sure what tranny & diff combo to run with it though. If possible an A650E, lextreme tc, 3.27 diff with LSD sounds pretty awesome to me. Sorry Brendon not trying to jack your thread...
I think the VVT-i accounts for more than just 1-3 HP. For instance, on my first car, the 8th gen Corolla, vvt-i was installed for the year 2000 model without any other changes. The engine, transmission, and drivetrain were all keep the same as previous years. Engine power went from 120 to 125 HP, and torque from 122 to 126. Based on that, at least 1/3 of the gains between 1997 and 98 came from valve timing alone. Don't forget, this was also a time before SAE certified ratings. Prior to 2006, automakers could rate their engines without factoring in drivetrain loss.
Transmissions aren't the only factor in the equation when rating a car on dynos. Running a more aggressive differential with the same transmission can skew dyno results and give an engine "more power" because that power's rated at the wheels, not the crank. Scotturnot was able to dyno his car at 230 rwhp and 247 ft-lbs with his original 4-spd autobox. I think a good part of that was because he was running a 4.27 lsd
Well for the 1JZ-GTE VVT-i the horsepower output remained the same so I was going with that but that might have been because of the gentlemen's agreement.
Some of the GS400 people have mentioned traction loss when switching to the Supra Turbo Auto differential.
Originally Posted by VanillaSC
I'm wondering about the A650E, has anyone bolted a NON-VVTI 1UZFE to one? I know MattStarr has a build thread where he says he plans to run one with a 4.27 rear out of an SC300, but I have not seen any updates on it. I'm wondering if it is a plug and play swap. I've been reading alot and trying to decide what direction to go with my SC. So far I'm pretty sure I want to do the 4.7L block with 10:1 compression with kelford cams, and wolf ems. Not sure what tranny & diff combo to run with it though. If possible an A650E, lextreme tc, 3.27 diff with LSD sounds pretty awesome to me. Sorry Brendon not trying to jack your thread...
The problem with the A650E is also it's great advantage. It is a 5 speed transmission. What ECU can control it?
The best combination I can think off is a 1UZ-FE VVT-i Head, 2UZ-FE block, 1UZ-FE VVT-i A650E transmission, 1UZ-FE VVT-i ECU (& transponder key), some kind of piggyback to tune for the new A/F ratio. The cost would be VERY high for the gains you would get.
Originally Posted by BartleDoo
Manual VVTI 1UZ would be sick.
Possibly If the right transmission was found. Look at the gearing I posted above. A W58 or R154 swap would most likely hurt your performance.
Possibly If the right transmission was found. Look at the gearing I posted above. A W58 or R154 swap would most likely hurt your performance.
No way man. The short gearing would be perfect. With a good exhaust and the rev limit raised those engines build power to 7000 and would make perfect use of short gearing. Like I said, if my stock '93 with no maf (leaving me with only 10 degrees of timing advance maximum) with just a W58 swap could run nearly the same exact 1/4 e.t. and trap speed as a stock 98+ SC400, then the VVTI model should easily run in the high 13's with a good exhaust and a W58/R154 given the reduced drivetrain loss.
EDIT: Just realized that the gearing of the A650E is actually shorter than the W58 surprisingly. I still think it would be faster with either W58/R154.
Well for the 1JZ-GTE VVT-i the horsepower output remained the same so I was going with that but that might have been because of the gentlemen's agreement.
Some of the GS400 people have mentioned traction loss when switching to the Supra Turbo Auto differential.
The problem with the A650E is also it's great advantage. It is a 5 speed transmission. What ECU can control it?
The best combination I can think off is a 1UZ-FE VVT-i Head, 2UZ-FE block, 1UZ-FE VVT-i A650E transmission, 1UZ-FE VVT-i ECU (& transponder key), some kind of piggyback to tune for the new A/F ratio. The cost would be VERY high for the gains you would get.
Possibly If the right transmission was found. Look at the gearing I posted above. A W58 or R154 swap would most likely hurt your performance.
I understand where you're going about the vvt-i doing little the improve the JZ series, but I think that has more to do with the engine's design. After all, when the 2JZ was coupled to the A650E in the IS300, its HP rating didn't jump. In fact, the IS300 was rated at less power than the SC300. The 2JZ-GE was just very aggressively designed and made a ton of power for a 3.0L of its time. Consider the following list of similar sized 6 cyl's Toyota released in the last 20 years:
2JZ-GE - Debut in 1991 with 225 HP, no valve timing or direct injection
1MZ-FE - Debut in 1994 with 210 HP, at its height with vvt-i
3GR-FSE - Debut in 2006 with 245 HP, dual VVT-i and direct injection
The 3GR-FSE, same size as the 2JZ, 15 years newer even with all the modern equipment, still barely made more power than the 2JZ. another case in point is the 1JZ-FSE. No that's no typo; Toyota actually made a direct injection JZ engine for their domestic market. What was the result? It actually made LESS power than the non-DI non-vvti 1JZ-GE.
I guess the thing to take into consideration is engine design. Most Toyota engines, including the UZ, were designed to be efficient and economical. That's part of the reason why the 2JZ guzzles as much gas as the 1UZ. The more economical and less aggressively designed engines respond better to valve timing. That's just my 2 cents.
I understand where you're going about the vvt-i doing little the improve the JZ series, but I think that has more to do with the engine's design. After all, when the 2JZ was coupled to the A650E in the IS300, its HP rating didn't jump. In fact, the IS300 was rated at less power than the SC300. The 2JZ-GE was just very aggressively designed and made a ton of power for a 3.0L of its time. Consider the following list of similar sized 6 cyl's Toyota released in the last 20 years:
2JZ-GE - Debut in 1991 with 225 HP, no valve timing or direct injection
1MZ-FE - Debut in 1994 with 210 HP, at its height with vvt-i
3GR-FSE - Debut in 2006 with 245 HP, dual VVT-i and direct injection
The 3GR-FSE, same size as the 2JZ, 15 years newer even with all the modern equipment, still barely made more power than the 2JZ. another case in point is the 1JZ-FSE. No that's no typo; Toyota actually made a direct injection JZ engine for their domestic market. What was the result? It actually made LESS power than the non-DI non-vvti 1JZ-GE.
I guess the thing to take into consideration is engine design. Most Toyota engines, including the UZ, were designed to be efficient and economical. That's part of the reason why the 2JZ guzzles as much gas as the 1UZ. The more economical and less aggressively designed engines respond better to valve timing. That's just my 2 cents.
Not at all. VVT-i helped the JZ series a lot in the area under the curve. Those numbers aren't accurate. The 2JZ-GE with no vvt-i is proven to dyno around 180hp. The 1UZ-FE with no VVT-i is proven to dyno around 210hp. Modern (performance) engines even if rated at close hp range usually dyno much closer to it than older vehicles and usually have a better power-band.
Efficient and economical aren't words I would use to describe the 1UZ. I'd say it's more accurate to say Toyota tried taming the naturally unbalanced V8 to give a smoother more luxurious ride. With the VVT-i it's clear Toyota realized some of the design elements were obviously flawed and revised the 1UZ making it more powerful.
I've been looking at options for converting the SC400 (1UZ, not 2JZ) to manual. As of now, it seems the only real swaps people have done are the W58 (most popular), R154 (less common), and the V160 (Scotturnot is the only one I heard who's done this swap). The problem I'm facing is finding a tranny-differential combo that works for me. I'm looking to improve acceleration, but without sacrificing fuel efficiency and wear-and-tear on the highway (i.e. running at a higher rpm).
This severely restricts the W58. Because of the W58's gearing, the rear diff would have to be 3.53 or less to keep the highway RPM equal to or less than the SC400's stock 4-spd A340E. This restricts the W58 almost exclusively to the 3.27 diff found in the Supra turbo and the 98-00 SC400. With a W58-3.27 diff combo, 1st gear would be 2% taller than stock, making launches off the line slower. Also, 2nd gear would be almost no improvement over the A340E. The would make this swap less somewhat fruitless.
The R154 is more more flexible. Running the Supra's 3.76 diff behind it would keep the highway gearing almost the same as stock, while giving an 11% improvement in 1st gear. The problem with this combo is 2nd gear would be 4% taller than than stock, which would hurt my mid-range acceleration (from about 40-80 MPH). This combo would probably be worse than the W58 because most acceleration/races occur in this range.
The V160 is by far the best overall. Coupled with the 3.27 diff, it improves across the board. 1st gear improves by almost 14%, 2nd gear improves by a whopping 29%, and highway cruising RPM's actually drop by over 7%. The problem is the V160 is VERY expensive compared to the other trannys, and it would require custom fabrication to hook it up to the 1UZ due to the lack of support.
Because of all these problems, I've been looking into the less common R155 and W59, trannys used in the RWD Toyota Tacoma. Their gearing is much more suitable for my desired result. Being trannys designed for trucks, they have very short 1st and 2nd gears to put more torque to the ground. Even when coupled to a 3.27 diff, they improve 1st and 2nd gear acceleration significantly. The R155 improves in 3rd gear over stock by 20%, giving it a further boost for races beyond the 100 mph mark. Highway cruising wise, the W59 remains close to stock and the R155 actually reduces RPMs by about 4%. Has anyone ever considered these two trannys? I know there are a bunch of kits out there for hooking up the 1UZ to the W58. Would it work with the W59?
While i understand you feel the w58 would be too long, but the w59(mated to all 4cyl 4runners surfs tacomas and tundras/2rz and 3rz) mated to my 3rz 2.7l i4 makes me feel like it is much too short in first in my 96 4runner, really you can hardly accelerate or let lose the *** end without poppin off redline, great for offroad but its not what you want for something as powerful. Unless you are gunna be crawlin your sc you dont want the w59, most who tune the 3rz switch to a w58 for better gearing.
ijust got my 93 sc400 and i hate auto trans and i need to know every this that i will need in order to do a manual trans swap and if you live close buy i and have done this i could use some poniters thanks so much
stock v8 4.0 i love her but she needs to be manual
I was thinking about doing the KA24DE swap instead of the r154 because it is alot cheaper and i heard the trans is strong. My goal is to just make my 98 sc400 manual, how would you rate the ride compared to the r154? Hearing KA24DE has a hard ride?
I'm not sure about it being faster stock. Mine ran 14's fully stock with a W58 at the same trap speed as the VVTI SC400's run.
EDIT: Looking at curb weights it also appears that the VVTI SC400 is around 300lbs heavier than my '93 before I shed weight with the swap to a W58. So that coupled with very reduced drive-train loss would make sense. Manual VVTI 1UZ would be sick. Those things pull to 7000 nicely.
BartleDoo,
So you noticed that you accelerated faster after swapping to the W58 from the 4spd Automatic?
What diff do you have?
I know that depending on what you diff you have will greatly affect acceleration. I can't seem to find a general consensus on what most people are using.
For those running r154 trans on there 1uz sc400, what flywheel and clutch did you go with? Website recommendations or company recommendations is appreciated. I have 98 sc400, stock working on manual swap and also have the supra auto tt trd lsd
ive been wondering about this myself. clutch flywheel combo would have to be figured out, and im sure just a custom bellhousing wouldnt be too hard to find.
04-26-11, 02:26 AM
