Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

I had gotten another working Motorola 2.5 bar map sensor... problem is I still have the 440's installed, so while the car will now start it pretty much dies immediately from being way too lean 16-17+ afr. Believe it or not that is a good sign as it wouldn't start before.

since you have larger injectors I would say give it a try, its like under $20 shipped online. just be carefull installing cause they are very fragile. if you touch power to the wrong pin, its TOAST. be sure to get the pigtail or a computer connector that will fit, make the connections on the pigtail, and plug it in at the end.

also if you plug in that connector upside down just 1 time, guess what... its TOAST.
its a good map sensor but it has absolutely no circuit protection for things like reversed leads/voltage, but then again they are under $20 so the 2 that I fried was just a learning lesson.. now I know better.

only thing I can think of is you might want more than 540cc, but its close enough that I would say give it a shot. if the ecu can hold an idle, the o2 sensor should take care of the rest. with stock size injectors it was reading like 16-17 lean off the gauge and it wouldn't hold anything... this is on a cold start where it is normally 10-11:1, so the voltage level is much different than a gte sensor but possibly doable with larger injectors.

let us know how it goes and if you need any help with it just post it up and I will help out, I have messed with enough of those to have an idea. I was going to try them with 550 and 660 injectors but never got to it as I bought a map ecu that I can pretty much just enter the values. if the Motorola even does work, it will only be good for a certain range of injector, which might be good for some but not everyone.

kind of like the mk3 supra guys who use a larger lexus v8 maf and go from 330-440cc injectors. not for everyone but a surprisingly large amount of people did use that setup at some point.
Ahh the good old days when we had to innovate. now its like a hobby for those who don't want to have a tuner on speed dial.

nuturf87

So what your saying Ali, is that in other words 550cc and Aristo ecu with a 2.5 map(Motorola or other) will idle and drive the car without the need of an SAFC? keeping in mind not to exceed 20 psi. I think that 14-18 psi will be my ballpark choice for a DD. I feel like this is a stupid question because you have like a 100 page thread on this lol but im in the process of a new project and would like to run the gte ecu as a budget turbo management. I was also thinking just buying high z 440cc to be a straight forward plug n play with the gte ecu. But I know that then im gonna be kicking myself in the head for not going with bigger injectors when i'm limited (550cc). Has anybody ran 525cc injectors with a aristo ecu? I would think its less % fuel increase compared to the 550cc making it idle and run better?

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

To this day I have never gotten a 2jzgte ecu to work with the motorola map sensor, it just doesnt like the values its seeing from that map sensor.
It was a good theory but to get it to work would take more work than using a 2jz map sensor and a piggyback, or what I do is I don't even have a 2jz map sensor anymore I just run a map ecu that replaces the 2jz map sensor.

the 440cc will work plug and play on the JDM ecu.

the 550's will idle and drive and do what your n/a car did, but with a very rich fuel mixture though you will smell if and it will be hurting your engine over time being that rich. it wont boost well most of the time cause there is too much fuel, but if you get a simple safc or map ecu and put that on there it will drive pretty much as if you had the 440's but you will have more fuel overhead in boost to work with in the future.

if you can live with 400 for a while go 440cc its the least complicated and works plug and play.
if you will need more later a piggyback is not difficult to install and you will need one eventually anyways so then just get 550's and a piggyback you prefer on the JDM ecu and it should run great.

I just recently switched to 550's and it started and drove with no piggyback just very rich and lost power, but after I got the map ecu on there It drives like it used to again, a touch richer but that actually seems to help out the performance aspect of things.

I thought about the 525 also, but I think any amount over 440 you will want to be able to pull fuel and then you might as well have the proven 550's. 525 isn't enough in my book to be worth not having the stock 440's in for, but then again I haven't tried it maybe you might like it. I can only share what I have actually done and make some guesses but I think 500+ you would want a piggyback, and the nice thing about those also is when you lower the map signal to compensate for larger injectors, you raise the psi where boost cut happens on a safc, and on a map ecu you can actually set the boost cut to whatever psi you want it to boost cut at. like at this elevation mine was going to 16-17 psi on the factory ecu (around 14-15 at sea level normally), so in the map ecu I just set it to go over boost cut at 20 psi cause my boost is usually around 17-18 so having it at 20 lets me run what I want and still have the factory overboost protection (think hot downwpipe or hot wastegate dump tube melts your line going to your wastegate and all of a sudden the boost will spike hard).

Its annoying sometimes to hit boost cut, but when you can set it where you want to, its actually a ncie feature. I used to have the boost failsafe set to like 4 psi above my regular boost even when I was on the aem ems. I am not a fan of completely disabling it like the greddy boost cut controller does, cause when you do that the only thing stopping you from spiking to 30 psi in a few seconds and blowing the headgasket or motor is how fast you can lift your right foot, and its usually buried to the floor at 18 psi. I ran into a spiking problem one time on my vehicle when I had the boost controller set for the stock intake and winter to a certain psi, and ran it in summer on a ffim without readjusting it and it after boosting I got quite a surprise the boost dial was like normal to 18 where it just shot past 20 like no other, I didn't even know what happened but I can tell you that the gte ecu cut power as soon as it crossed 20 and the boost gauge immediately fell back down. I am a fan of a user settable boost cut, so that and the fact that when using a map ecu you don't need to have a 2jz map sensor, makes the map ecu the piggyback of choice for me with this mod. currently I am on the JDM 6 speed supra ecu and map ecu v1 re-flashed for high altitude with 550's

the guys over at map ecu are Very tech savvy also, when I was setting mine up at 5200ft elevation (Denver is the mile high city after all), I read 2 psi lower than everyone else and I needed one more row lower of vacuum cells then sea level cars (especially if I drive to the mountains) cause the map sensor was reading so low at idle it was literally off the chart, so they actually sent me the procedure to reflash the map ecu, and the took away the largest boost cell 35 psi or something and gave me another vacuum row. In my opinion thats above and beyond for such an old piggyback system. that was literally my only issue, without the extra vacuum cell I couldn't pull more fuel at idle at such a high altitude, but now I think I can drive across the country and would be fine at any altitude. I actually wonder why they just didn't have it at first like that, I guess they think all of us in the mountains drive carb'd busses or something.

CatManD3W

iTrader: (18)

So with a map ecu.....you can set the boost cut to what you want....i.e it bypasses stock ECU boost/fuel cut

I have Aristo 2jzgte ECU and I am looking to upgrade to ID725 injectors.....and run 20psi....I am in the process of currently collecting parts to upgrade my fuel system.....

Which Map ECU do you guys usually run 2 or 3?

I also heard that you should go higher than double the stock injectors....i.e 440s........and the biggest would be 880.....is this true?

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

Yes on the map ecu you can set the boost cut to whatever you want. its not techncically listed as a "feature" until the v3, but even the v1 and v2 can do it. all you need is a v1 with this ecu. if it was a non turbo ecu where you need to pull timing and look at coolant and all that silly stuff the stupid GE ecu cannot do, then I would say definately get a v3, but the gte ecu only needs a v1. a v3 would work fine though, only reason for me to get one would be the wifi features it has and I think you can view things on a screen on the car. v1 is very simple it has none of that stuff, but it does the corrections, it does the user settable boost cut, and it has outputs you can set to go off at a certain psi for like water/meth injection or nos or whatever you feel like sticking a relay on.

basically when you are looking at the main map in the map ecu, the numbers there correspond to a voltage the stock map sensor puts out, and somewhere over 3600 on the map ecu 1 is the voltage for boost cut.
so what I do is wherever I want to boost lets say to 18 psi, I leave the cell for 18 psi under or at 3600 (adjusting for air fuel ratio). the next row lets say 21 psi you set to be a large number like 4200 which is over the voltage for boost cut, so when you get halfway between where you have 3600 and 4200 it will boost cut like around 20 psi.

here is a upload of my current map ecu file you can see where I have it set to boost cut somewhere between 17.5 and 20 psi
This map wont work for everyone cause I am at high elevation so dont copy it cell for cell.
like normally at sea level, the number in the column for 0 rpm's would be the same number in the row for 0 psi, cause when engine is off at 0 rpm's outside air at sea level is 0 psi.
you notice on mine the 0 rpm column has a number very close to the -5.1 in/hg line value, and that is because up here at 5200ft, with the engine off my map sensor reads -5.1 in /hg, so if you were to use this at sea level your numbers would be different for the 0 rpm column at the least and should be close to what is in the 0 psi line.


I originally arrived at these values by using the stock 2jz map sensor on the gte ecu and installing the map ecu in learn mode, and after it had enough samples I was able to fill in the rest of the chart. the nice thing about JDM map sensor GTE ecu's is that the numbers on a given row do not change with rpm at all, they only change with pressure, so its easier to fill in. this makes sense cause the map sensor does not care what rpm you are at, it will tell the ecu only what the pressure it sees is.

if you were to look at the map ecu basemap for a usdm ecu which has a maf, you would see that the numbers are all over the place on a given row and do vary with rpm cause maf's measure total "airflow". I think this is partly why the US ecu is so much more touchy then the jdm one when it comes to using on na-t.

CatManD3W

iTrader: (18)

Thanks Ali good to know.....could you see a problem with doing id1000's on map ecu and Aristo ECU....

nuturf87

[QUOTE=Ali SC3;9114300]To this day I have never gotten a 2jzgte ecu to work with the motorola map sensor, it just doesnt like the values its seeing from that map sensor.
It was a good theory but to get it to work would take more work than using a 2jz map sensor and a piggyback, or what I do is I don't even have a 2jz map sensor anymore I just run a map ecu that replaces the 2jz map sensor.

the 440cc will work plug and play on the JDM ecu.

the 550's will idle and drive and do what your n/a car did, but with a very rich fuel mixture though you will smell if and it will be hurting your engine over time being that rich. it wont boost well most of the time cause there is too much fuel, but if you get a simple safc or map ecu and put that on there it will drive pretty much as if you had the 440's but you will have more fuel overhead in boost to work with in the future.

if you can live with 400 for a while go 440cc its the least complicated and works plug and play.
if you will need more later a piggyback is not difficult to install and you will need one eventually anyways so then just get 550's and a piggyback you prefer on the JDM ecu and it should run great.

I just recently switched to 550's and it started and drove with no piggyback just very rich and lost power, but after I got the map ecu on there It drives like it used to again, a touch richer but that actually seems to help out the performance aspect of things.

I thought about the 525 also, but I think any amount over 440 you will want to be able to pull fuel and then you might as well have the proven 550's. 525 isn't enough in my book to be worth not having the stock 440's in for, but then again I haven't tried it maybe you might like it. I can only share what I have actually done and make some guesses but I think 500+ you would want a piggyback, and the nice thing about those also is when you lower the map signal to compensate for larger injectors, you raise the psi where boost cut happens on a safc, and on a map ecu you can actually set the boost cut to whatever psi you want it to boost cut at. like at this elevation mine was going to 16-17 psi on the factory ecu (around 14-15 at sea level normally), so in the map ecu I just set it to go over boost cut at 20 psi cause my boost is usually around 17-18 so having it at 20 lets me run what I want and still have the factory overboost protection (think hot downwpipe or hot wastegate dump tube melts your line going to your wastegate and all of a sudden the boost will spike hard).

Its annoying sometimes to hit boost cut, but when you can set it where you want to, its actually a ncie feature. I used to have the boost failsafe set to like 4 psi above my regular boost even when I was on the aem ems. I am not a fan of completely disabling it like the greddy boost cut controller does, cause when you do that the only thing stopping you from spiking to 30 psi in a few seconds and blowing the headgasket or motor is how fast you can lift your right foot, and its usually buried to the floor at 18 psi. I ran into a spiking problem one time on my vehicle when I had the boost controller set for the stock intake and winter to a certain psi, and ran it in summer on a ffim without readjusting it and it after boosting I got quite a surprise the boost dial was like normal to 18 where it just shot past 20 like no other, I didn't even know what happened but I can tell you that the gte ecu cut power as soon as it crossed 20 and the boost gauge immediately fell back down. I am a fan of a user settable boost cut, so that and the fact that when using a map ecu you don't need to have a 2jz map sensor, makes the map ecu the piggyback of choice for me with this mod. currently I am on the JDM 6 speed supra ecu and map ecu v1 re-flashed for high altitude with 550's

the guys over at map ecu are Very tech savvy also, when I was setting mine up at 5200ft elevation (Denver is the mile high city after all), I read 2 psi lower than everyone else and I needed one more row lower of vacuum cells then sea level cars (especially if I drive to the mountains) cause the map sensor was reading so low at idle it was literally off the chart, so they actually sent me the procedure to reflash the map ecu, and the took away the largest boost cell 35 psi or something and gave me another vacuum row. In my opinion thats above and beyond for such an old piggyback system. that was literally my only issue, without the extra vacuum cell I couldn't pull more fuel at idle at such a high altitude, but now I think I can drive across the country and would be fine at any altitude. I actually wonder why they just didn't have it at first like that, I guess they think all of us in the mountains drive carb'd

Lol. Its good for business. They got to keep the money making the world go round. I guess its just a reason to add more features or sell products. But thx for your thorough response and time ali. Very true about boost cut controller. Too risky not having a failsafe. I would want that extra piece of mind. I may pull trigger for 550's, map ecu, and aristo ecu instead. In this case the fuel control is the only thing needed to run the 550's with map ecu?

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

Yes I could see a problem those injectors are more than double the original size. I have heard of people doing it but then again I have heard people say how great their car is on the stock ecu, so I take it with like a mountain of salt. If there was any piggyback to make it work though it would be the map ecu. you can try it and let us know maybe being the newer style ID's it might work out somehow but I personally was thinking 550 is the sweet spot for good drive ability still. 660 is probably good too but haven't tried it. you might run really rich in cold start but it shuld even itself out when warm even without 1000's, timing with 1000's your guess is as good as mine but staring to think the gte ecu handles timing and fueling more seperately than I originally thought cause I picked up no detonation going to 550's in fact that partial throttle knock issue I had from the pistons all being carbon'd up cleared up completely from the extra touch of fuel the 550's give after correction, at least for a little bit until they get really carbon'd up not sure.

Yeah all you need is a JDM 2jzgte ecu (supra or aristo), the 550cc injectors, and the map ecu to comensate for the injectors. the map ecu replaces the factory map sensor so you wont need to buy a 2jzgte map sensor., you will still need an intake air temp sensor and the ignition mods that are in the tt ecu mod to get the ecu to run, its pretty easy route to have a nice running turbo vehicle that can lay down 500hp. apparently 400hp wasn't enough for me but 500 I am pretty happy with on the street. any more and I would get into too much trouble and would have to take that to the track.

CatManD3W

iTrader: (18)

Thanks Ali....I think I will stick with ID 725.....

Also from what I have read the max psi I would be able to run without a modded JDM ECU would be 18 psi.....above that level I heard that timing will become an issue

Above 18 psi could be achieved with say a JDM Mines 2jzgte ECU.....

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

Haven't heard that before I thought some people run alot more that that on the stock JDM ecu after setting it up correctly, but I guess it depends on the turbo and your compression as well, a s366 probably makes a little more power at 18 psi than my turbo does so I wouldn't go by a psi more like a power number but I haven't had any issues with timing, seems to be spot on actually you basically get what the ecu has in it for 14 psi and the timing doesn't seem to be agressive at all if na-t's are running it without tt headgaskets even. But with most things there is likely a "safe" limit I just didn't think it was that low cause I hear about setups with high hp numbers on the jdm ecu's w/gte motors and they don't have the mines usually just a piggyback.

I thought the mines ecu's was more aggressive in timing, not less aggressive but I don't know much about it. that would be neat if it was less aggressive in boost, but the timing seems to be alright on my end I worry more about keeping the afr's rich but I haven't pushed it that far I guess. 18 psi over here on 91 octane at 5200 feet elevation, not ideal at all but it never skips a beat, but I guess at sea level that is more like 16 psi.

Ideally one should log the knock parameters, but I never got that logging thing to work on obd1.

One interesting thing to note also is that some people on the map ecu forum have reported successfully used the map ecu with very large injectors to run the 2jz off of e85 on the jdm ecu.
so you could use ID1000cc injectors with e85 and actually have it work out pretty well, and the stock o2 sensor will even home in on the correct lamda values.
The neat part about that is even if you advance the timing more than wanted with pump gas, the e85 will just eat it all up and give you more power.
But if you want to run pump gas, then you might have the issues as said above or it might work alright, that is new territory for sure.

It is nice to know if I wanted to lets say right now fill my whole tank with e85, I could use the map ecu to adjust for that, although my pump and whole fuel setup probably wont be up to par, you have to set your fuel system up to flow a bunch more on e85 in boost so I wouldn't do it unless the fuel system can handle it. probably dual pumps, larger feed line, and an inline filter at a minimum.

CatManD3W

iTrader: (18)

That was my main reason for wanting to do id1000's to run e85.......the 725's would run out at around 550hp on e85

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

well if you are running e85 or a mix then I would think it could work nicely, and you could hit that 6-700hp mark likely on the 1000's.