Distributor Delete Pics w/ 7m-gte CPS / vvti Coilpacks
10-17-12, 04:16 PM
#106
I don't understand what you are saying.
What's "Bad"?
Every manufacturer until COP was standard, used Waste spark on everything.
What the difference between waste sparking 3 coils firing on the exhaust stroke, and 6, when all of the injectors are independently controlled? There is no danger of backfiring, and the coils are igniting any left over combustion, increasing efficiency.
And the Turbo statement, guess what drives turbine wheels besides pressure?
Heat. Thermal energy. Even if it fired and ignited some fuel after the power stroke, it would create more thermal energy to drive the turbine wheel, isn't that what we want?
I'm going to do it, it worked for others on similar ECU setups, so why not?
What's "Bad"?
Every manufacturer until COP was standard, used Waste spark on everything.
What the difference between waste sparking 3 coils firing on the exhaust stroke, and 6, when all of the injectors are independently controlled? There is no danger of backfiring, and the coils are igniting any left over combustion, increasing efficiency.
And the Turbo statement, guess what drives turbine wheels besides pressure?
Heat. Thermal energy. Even if it fired and ignited some fuel after the power stroke, it would create more thermal energy to drive the turbine wheel, isn't that what we want?
I'm going to do it, it worked for others on similar ECU setups, so why not?
10-17-12, 05:00 PM
#107
The way I understood it is that you only ever do that on an n/a engine, which toyota rarely did anyways.
I thought firing on the exhaust stroke is not dangerous because the piston is in its proper location for that cylinder.
you are right that because of sequential ignition you can get away with it, but there is a reason why you only see it on n/a engines. quite often factory turbo ecu's will hit a solid 10 or richer in boost, at higher rpm's the fuel delivery can get a bit sloppy, and since you are igniting at times when the piston is no longer in a safe position, you have all the right conditions for something to go wrong. I agree with you that it will work, I am saying its not worth the risk for a tacho signal.
internally ignited coils are designed to be fired once every revolution because they are true coil on plug. firing g them 6 times more than they are designed to wont be better.
I completely agree with you that the car will run if you use a 2jzgte ecu because it has full sequential injection (1jz does not).
I just dont see the reason to give up full sequential cop ignition with really sweet coilpacks, just to keep the ge ignitor in the mix. you have 6 coils and the tt ecu fires 6 coils it seems like a perfect match to me
I thought firing on the exhaust stroke is not dangerous because the piston is in its proper location for that cylinder.
you are right that because of sequential ignition you can get away with it, but there is a reason why you only see it on n/a engines. quite often factory turbo ecu's will hit a solid 10 or richer in boost, at higher rpm's the fuel delivery can get a bit sloppy, and since you are igniting at times when the piston is no longer in a safe position, you have all the right conditions for something to go wrong. I agree with you that it will work, I am saying its not worth the risk for a tacho signal.
internally ignited coils are designed to be fired once every revolution because they are true coil on plug. firing g them 6 times more than they are designed to wont be better.
I completely agree with you that the car will run if you use a 2jzgte ecu because it has full sequential injection (1jz does not).
I just dont see the reason to give up full sequential cop ignition with really sweet coilpacks, just to keep the ge ignitor in the mix. you have 6 coils and the tt ecu fires 6 coils it seems like a perfect match to me
10-18-12, 05:06 AM
#108
I would be worth it to tie in independent coil on each of the channels, but for the sake of simplicity I am trying it on True batch mode, once things get serious I will make a sub-harness to each of the coils.
I need new coil clips anyways so It might come back out for this.
Take this into consideration: Would a Coil pack with ignitor lose more milliseconds between the wiring that connects them, or a COP firing twice as much through batch mode?
Either way this is interesting conversation!
10-18-12, 07:17 AM
#109
yeah gte ecu is a true coil on plug 6 channels of output. I just recommend the vvti setup because of its reliability, better spark, and because they fit under the stock intake.
its pretty well known that once you put an aem v1 on a gte car, the stock ignition takes a major hit because the aem v1 only runs waste spark, so it runs the 6 individual coils in batches of 2. one would think its not a big deal, but because these coils are set up for true COP, the dwell times and other factors come in to play that do not agree with being fired twice. I would imagine they wouldn't even work right fired 6 times.
the aem v1 instructions actually tell you to idle properly you have to greatly increase the air fuel ratio (>12:1) to run super rich, gap down the plugs, and also raise your idle rpm. its in the aem ems 1100 instructions.
the reason the vvti ones work so well is because they are designed to be fired twice, which means also the respective ignitor knows this and accounts for charging the coil properly, but with internally ignited coils you cannot bypass the built in ignitor or swap out for another one.
you will have the best spark energy when you rewire them individually, and that may be even better than vvti coils, but I can guarantee firing them every spark event will give you really low spark energy, and you may overheat the coils, they won't have any time to dissipate the heat.
If you wanted to do something really fancy, you could wire the igt through the distribuytor and it would deal out the IGT to the appropriate cylinder, but Its a crazy idea I came up with and I don't know if a low voltage signal can jump the rotor to the cap like the spark is designed to.. and then all the mess of making cables.. really not worth the experiment even.
its pretty well known that once you put an aem v1 on a gte car, the stock ignition takes a major hit because the aem v1 only runs waste spark, so it runs the 6 individual coils in batches of 2. one would think its not a big deal, but because these coils are set up for true COP, the dwell times and other factors come in to play that do not agree with being fired twice. I would imagine they wouldn't even work right fired 6 times.
the aem v1 instructions actually tell you to idle properly you have to greatly increase the air fuel ratio (>12:1) to run super rich, gap down the plugs, and also raise your idle rpm. its in the aem ems 1100 instructions.
the reason the vvti ones work so well is because they are designed to be fired twice, which means also the respective ignitor knows this and accounts for charging the coil properly, but with internally ignited coils you cannot bypass the built in ignitor or swap out for another one.
you will have the best spark energy when you rewire them individually, and that may be even better than vvti coils, but I can guarantee firing them every spark event will give you really low spark energy, and you may overheat the coils, they won't have any time to dissipate the heat.
If you wanted to do something really fancy, you could wire the igt through the distribuytor and it would deal out the IGT to the appropriate cylinder, but Its a crazy idea I came up with and I don't know if a low voltage signal can jump the rotor to the cap like the spark is designed to.. and then all the mess of making cables.. really not worth the experiment even.
10-18-12, 07:32 AM
#110
the reason the vvti ones work so well is because they are designed to be fired twice, which means also the respective ignitor knows this and accounts for charging the coil properly. But with internally ignited coils you cannot bypass the built in ignitor or swap out for another one.
There is nothing special about this design, as well as the DS2 "Knowing" how to charge the coil.
It does this with a very steady and common 12+v supply similar to the GTE one, except it's been compacted in design but not function.
These newer coils are better in every way, but they facilitate my setup the best so it's not good for everyone.
I just don't believe that decreasing the coil energy distribution by dividing the load through individual coils, is worse then the 3 channel batch Camry coil VVti design.
It all theory at this point but I will verify. I am close.
10-18-12, 08:52 AM
#111
lol alright man, i wish you good luck but you were warned. I have personally seen waste spark on the 6 gte coils, where they fire twice as fast, and let me tell you it isn't pretty, they can hardly idle on the stock tune. where is omar he has done it before he will tell you the same thing. the 1 stock 2jzge coil does a much better job hands down. this is why DLI became so relied upon in the 2jz world, but if they had been smarter they would have realized that they could have just gone vvti coils instead, like all the mk3 guys figured out many years ago when they had to also worry about getting rid of multiplex ignition, which was really the weak link there.
just curious, what engine is that diagram from, because I haven't seen a toyota ignition system that badly designed before. almost always when they have both a G1 and a G2 cam trigger, they use sequential or semi sequential ignition.
**edit** I just realized its not a toyota diagram because you can see the stock coil in the corner there, so this is someones mod, so It cannot really be said that toyota ever released a system like this.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I love to debate and learn new things but you won't budge me on this one. I don't think its safe.
if you do wire them up individually, try tapping the IGF for the tacho wire, it should drive the tach just fine from what I have read, then there is no need to keep an external ignitor in the mix at all.
just curious, what engine is that diagram from, because I haven't seen a toyota ignition system that badly designed before. almost always when they have both a G1 and a G2 cam trigger, they use sequential or semi sequential ignition.
**edit** I just realized its not a toyota diagram because you can see the stock coil in the corner there, so this is someones mod, so It cannot really be said that toyota ever released a system like this.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I love to debate and learn new things but you won't budge me on this one. I don't think its safe.
if you do wire them up individually, try tapping the IGF for the tacho wire, it should drive the tach just fine from what I have read, then there is no need to keep an external ignitor in the mix at all.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 10-18-12 at 09:02 AM.
I knew you would come around sooner or later but I don't understand why the 2jzge ignitor still there. you really don't need it at all. did you try it the other way curious to hear how it worked?
10-31-12, 12:32 PM
#116
looks good then, yeah these coils in sequential is where they would really shine.
if the reliability proves to be better than the gte coils, which people say they are then these will be right up there with the vvti coils in my book.
hopefully the tach should work from the IGF.
if the reliability proves to be better than the gte coils, which people say they are then these will be right up there with the vvti coils in my book.
hopefully the tach should work from the IGF.
01-29-13, 03:00 AM
#117
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I'm in the process of deleting my dizzy, cos my s372 turbo will not clear. Jus wondering Ali have you tested with lq9 coil packs?? I know a lot of the supraforums are all into that jw if you tryed it would like to know. (I kinda didn't read all the pages so if its been brought up my bad)
01-29-13, 07:18 AM
#118
quicksc4 likes the lq9 coils and they are good coils to go with except they are internally ignited and don't put out an IGF signal like the stock gte ecu expects, so you either need to be running a standalone, or have some sort of trick way to wire it up to the stock gte ecu which I am not sure how to do without testing it.
01-29-13, 11:01 AM
#119
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quicksc4 likes the lq9 coils and they are good coils to go with except they are internally ignited and don't put out an IGF signal like the stock gte ecu expects, so you either need to be running a standalone, or have some sort of trick way to wire it up to the stock gte ecu which I am not sure how to do without testing it.
