KC95SC400

iTrader: (3)

As some of you know, I've changed intake setups half a dozen times or more. Never really been 100% happy with anything. Well, got another hair up my butt this past weekend.

Anyway, just orderd a dual nozzle water / meth kit. I plan on using a nozzle right before the supercharger intake (suction side) and one somewhere in the intake (pressure side) before the IAT sensor. Also, I plan on using the washer fluid tank to hold the fluid.

Any thoughts?

Bought from these guys BTW alcoholinjectionsystems.com

KC

UZZ30-SC4

I wouldnt run water into the turbine, asking for trouble down the road.

KC95SC400

iTrader: (3)

Any more info on saying this?

It does appear to be an area of debate between kit manufactures. Most say not to do it and a few say its no problem.

I found info on several different forums about some outstanding results by spraying suction side, in the short term. Haven't found much long term info.

I think it should be fine as long as a good mix is being used. The water / meth should evaporate pretty much instantly when making contact with the blades / housing.

KC

2.5tsoarer

iTrader: (3)

If the water mix is properly atomized it wont be an issue.

SC400TT

iTrader: (4)

KC, you want excellent atomization of the spray, and most all manufacturers recommend the nozzles be placed a minimum of 6" away from the intake, so that you get a thorough mix of air and fluid before it gets inside your intake. I would heed this recommendation. I also did so in my set up. In fact, I think I went 8 inches from the throttle body.

I also decided against using my windshield washer fluid tank because I want to run a 50/50 mix of water/methanol, and I don't want to use that as my windshield washer fluid. You can find tons of tanks made of polished stainless on ebay for $40 to $50, and that would be better to have a dedicated reservoir.

Ryan

UZZ30-SC4

As 2.5Tsoarer said, as long as the mix atomizes you should be ok, but even if you atomize you dont get rid of the moisture, its still there. Problem being that the extra moisture added into the suction side of the turbine will degrade its mechanical performance quicker than it would at normal humidity.

If i was personally doing a setup like this, i would keep the moisture on the pressure side.


But i wouldnt do a setup like this though, just like i say for Nitrous, bottle feeding is for babies...so is meth, nothing against you brother, just a general opinion.

ZSC3

iTrader: (1)

I also will be running the AIS methanol injection. 2JZGE pt61 NA-T. Pretty excited about running methanol/water.

2.5tsoarer

iTrader: (3)

Did this happen to you ?

The cold compressor side of a turbo has nothing exposed that you be damaged by a well atomized mix of water and methanol. < advice from experience not hearsay.

btw the only part of a turbo referred to as turbine is the exhaust side which in this case is not a factor

spin all 4

Given that the point to the water/alchy injection is to have some of the water vaporize in the intake track lowering intake temperatures, I would recommend only spraying after the super charger.

I bet if he contacts Vortech they tell him to not run the setup pre supercharger.

If you run it pre s/c, there's a chance of water puddling in the intercooler.


There's no need to run it pre supercharger, these systems work so well 6-8" from the TB you'll love it.

I was able to run 2-3 lbs more boost on pump gas with the alchy/water injection on my typhoon. In fact, I have an aquamist kit just sitting here waiting to go on my next boosted car.

SC400TT

iTrader: (4)

Aquamist, yeah baby!!

KC95SC400

iTrader: (3)

Man you guys are such downers! Joking! I value any feedback.

Couple things I want to go over and a few comments that caught my eye that need responding to.

First, my purpose for going water / meth is hopefully to make more power. Also, I hadn't mentioned it on the first post, but I am planning on taking out the intercooler. I have never really been happy with the intercooler, both drivability and response is MUCH better without it. I may run the piping through the engine bay or I might just stick in a straight pipe and leave the piping where it is. There's nothing wrong with the current route but going through the engine bay would be a bit shorter.

Now on the more power theory. The only change that I had made between the first two times I was on the dyno was the intercooler. I don't know the exact numbers but I actually made about 5rwhp and 15rwtq more WITHOUT the intercooler. This is despite the IAT temps being about 70 degrees higher. I also had about 1.5 psi more boost without the intercooler which I’m sure partially explains the better power. So my theory is: loose the intercooler and gain some boost while at the same time have a nice and cool (possibly cooler) intake charge. Should be worth some rw power.

Now on to pre supercharger injection. This is what I read that first turned me on to the idea. http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html

As I said, it does seem to be an area of debate. I am willing to give it a shot going by some of the positive results I have found through searching Google. Here is a good example - http://www.hyundai-forums.com/t26613...-injection.htm

A quick list of positives, negatives and some other stuff. There is more to it but this is off the top of my head.

Positives – Pre compressor injection changes the compressor map, for the better. Makes it act like a bigger unit and greatly increases the efficiency. Reduces the intake charge temps at the source of heat and of course, provides a much denser charge.

Negatives – Is potentially bad for the compressor itself. I have found out that methanol is actually pretty corrosive to aluminum.

Other stuff – Should be fine if done right. Some things to consider are: Methanol is better for pre compressor use due to the fact that it evaporates much easier than water and it weighs less. Less impact on the compressor. Good atomization is a must and the use of a small nozzle is needed to keep from over saturating the air. The trick is to have enough methanol and a fine enough mist so that the injected fluid evaporates as soon as it enters the air stream. Should also be noted that a centrifugal supercharger does not spin at near the speeds of a turbo, this equalls less impact damage.


I'm not sure why you say this. I sorta understand with Nitrous but meth injection doesn't really add power per say. The potential power increase comes from a cooler / denser intake charge. It's basically just another form of intercooling. It also has quite a few other benefits.

The short list: Effectively increases the octane of any given fuel making it near impossible to detonate. Water vapor makes the fuel harder to burn which is really what "octane" is, resistance to burning. This allows for more timing. Steam cleans the engine eliminating carbon build-up. The methanol does burn and can allow for less fuel to be used to get the same AFR.

Google "windshield washer fluid msds". Washer fluid is basically water and methanol! The lower the freeze rating the higher the methanol content. -20 washer fluid contains about 35% methanol by weight. In fact, if you do some searching, many people use washer fluid as their fluid for injection. It's cheap and easy to get!

That's it for now!

KC

SC400TT

iTrader: (4)

KC, what were the dimensions of your intercooler? Frequently, people think more or larger is better. Not necessarily the case with Intercoolers. If you go too big, you will get too much pressure drop, which will cause you to lose power. I am willing to bet that if you had a smaller Intercooler, you may have gotten better results.

Secondly, I know that washer fluid is a mixture of water and alcohol/methanol. I still don't want it for my mix. I don't want the dyes that are in the mix, nor do I want the lower concentrations in most washer fluids. I will use RO or distilled water and methanol, mixed at a 50/50 concentration. Just my preferance.

Thanks,

Ryan

KC95SC400

iTrader: (3)

Way too big for sure, 21x10x3. I'm sure it would be better with a smaller unit. But, I have been pondering wm injection for a while now and decided I would give it a shot rather than trying a smaller intercooler.


Just thought maybe you didn't know, I didn't know about it untill last night myself.

Where do you plan on getting your methanol?

KC

SC400TT

iTrader: (4)

KC, no worries man. Probably the performance shop. I trust the quality and purity there.

Yeah, that FMIC is way too big for your application. I do agree that you do not need an FMIC if you run Water/Meth injection. Should go pretty well. I am curious to see how you do with the pre-injection of the mist. Be sure to do it right, as methanol is highly corrosive to aluminum, as you mentioned.

Ryan

2jzlex

iTrader: (3)

First off, don't compare meth and NOS. Kinda different lol.

Meth isn't gonna do jack for you unless you retune for it. But, meth when tuned is safer when NOS isn't, regardless of how it's injected, tuned or not. Meth burns as fuel, and your fuel will have to be adjusted according the mixture you decide to run, the nozzle size, etc. Same thing with lowering your intake temps and raising octane, all depends on mixture, nozzle size, form of delivery yada yada yada. So keep this in mind when you go to retune. I wasn't a fan of meth either, a certain someone (***) turned me onto it. Hi Tres!

I have a writeup on here KC of a dual nozzle meth install. Now the reason for this, is atomization. Your dual nozzle setup doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, no offense. I really can't see any benefit to running pre compressor, and would be very cautious if you decide to do so. You run the risks of what others have described plus some. Either way there's alot of potential in methanol injection and as long as you take the precations against some kind of failure it's a very safe way to go despite what alot of people think that *cough* don't know what they're doing *cough*. Get that thing running right and turn up the boost.