Suneet

Hey guys,

Well I took the reccomendation to go to Exact for service and I did so. I got all my fluids changed, serpentine belt changed, and new tires mounted. Car felt good when I got it back yesterday evening (wed night), but I was stuck in traffic so I never drove the car above 50 mph. Later at night I got up to 75 and started to feel some violent vibrations... I figured the tires were out of balance, (from what I learned at the Custom alignment seminar.. ) and called John up today. He was pretty surprised to hear that! So I took my car back today.

First thing the other mechanic went and took my car for a spin. I think his name is Steve. He brought my car back and said he felt no vibration, but told me my brakes vibrate and made it seem as if thats what I thought the problem was. I told him no, its different, I know I have warped rotors.. they're getting replaced soon too So we took the car on the freeway while he was driving and he finally felt it, but when he felt it he thought it was all kidns of other things: told me I had messed up axles, maybe my rotors were causing it, maybe my brake pads.. I wasn't buying it.

Took the car back to Exact, and John put it on the lift and we "drove" it simulated, and the rear shook violently. So we took the rear wheels off and put them on the balancer.. (Hunter DSP 9000).. Wow, they were WAY Off! John thought my wheels were bent or something.. but that didn't make any sense to me, becuase I never had this problem with my previous tires.

So John rebalances the wheel and it takes an INSANE amount of weight to do it. Close to 10 oz per wheel or something like that. The inside of the wheel literally had weights pasted on it everywhere. The other rear wheel wasn't as bad, but it was still out of alignment. I was with him when the machine said that both wheels were perfectly balanced now.

So we put the wheels back on the car, John drives my car and we go for a test drive on the freeway. Car feels fine! I'm excited. I drive to Berkeley, and on my way back.. the vibrations get pretty bad again. So bad that my legs are all tingly from feeling the vibrations in the pedals.

So I'm lost. John's theory is that when he first mountd the tires, they have to lubricate them, so when I started driving, the tires actually shifted on the wheels, throwing them off balance. He confirmed this by noticing that the valve stem had moved considerable away from the yellow dot on the tire where he mounted it. He said to keep easy on the tires. So on my drive to Berkeley I did just that.. never went full throttle, and there was so much traffic, it didn't matter.

So now what do I do? I guess I can call John again tomorrow and bug him.. but I don't feel like its the right thing to do:

1) I feel bad about it since he's so busy with other cars. And even though he was very busy today, he did give up almost 2 hrs of his time to rebalance the tires himself with me watching, and he took the time to test drive my car
2) I didn't like it when that other mechanic was telling me that the problem was all these other things.. It was way to early to even say anythign about the problem.. it just made me feel like I was making my problem up or something like that. I don't know, I just didn't feel great about that.


I'm thinking of just taking the car to custom alignment.. The car is definitely due for an alignment anyways, so I think I'll get that done, and then they can try and rebalance the wheels.. I hope that will solve the problem. Do I need new wheels? My first reaction to all this was how would these problems show up with just changing the tires? For example I know my alignment sucks but I didn't have this problem with my old BALDING Turanzas.. And lets say my wheels were bent.. how can you explain both my rear wheels being bent but not my fronts... and even if they were, wouldn't I of had this problem with the old tires?

Also, for the record, with my old tires, the wheel weights were mountd on the outside of the wheel, and with these new tires John used the stick weights on the inside of the wheel.

And I still don't have a window.. Car looks like a POS right now w/o a door panel, window.. or back seats..

Suneet

I dropped the car off at Custom Alignment today. I spoke with Joe, the guy who led our workshop when we were there.. great guy. Right away just from looking at the wheel he could tell it was some sort of balance problem, and he told me there is no reason why there should be so much weight on the wheel.. then you're just balancing weights, not the wheel.

They don't have time to do an alignment today, but they will remount each tire and rebalance all 4 wheels. I hope that solves the problem.

menech

Sorry to hear about the wheel problems at Exact

Hopefully Custom Alignment will get you all sorted out, they are a great shop and after getting over the sticker stock you realize that the price premium is being well used.

shiwen

Suneet,

I vaguely remember some stories about the lubricant causing tires to slip on the wheels, thus unbalancing. Something about the generic tire lubricant for mounting causing problems with certain wheels. Also, there was some other type of material that still lubricated enough for the mount but not enough to allow slippage. I'm sure that Custom will have you in great shape shortly. Try some searches on vibration to find the threads I'm referencing if you'd like.

Shiloh

RMMGS4

iTrader: (5)

Suneet,
it might be better to get the issue resolved and then tell us the story once all the facts and conclusions are known.

Right now we are seeing a blow by blow account and that could lead to all sorts of discussions and theories. What someone feels and what someone doesn't feel. Then there are the multitude of legitimate possible causes, brake rotors, other suspension issues. These all could be contributors that exacerbate the problem, all may help when fixed, but your originating cause of the problem is probably something else. Just as with any failure analysis, there is a logical way to proceed with finding the root cause of the problem.

I think the reading will be less convoluted for all of us if you find out the root cause and then re-cap the end result and findings.

Going through all the opinions from John, then cA then reporting it back here, is inconclusive and leads people to wonder if they know what they are doing.

Your title alone is quite biased in inferring that the vibration problem is more caused by Exact than the quality of the tires you purchased.

"New tires and now the car vibrates like crazy.. my experiences at Exact" That does not sound like a fair and un-biased title if you ask me.

If you expect that all new tires are no-brainer vibration free, I got news for ya. Please read on.

You know I am an engineer and resolving technical problem issues is my profession, but understand there are lay people here that will read and take your reports and deduce all sort of assumptions. Some of those assumptions may be negative, which may not be a warranted deduction, especially since the true problem and cause has not been identified or proven.

While you are in the process of resolving this issue there will be a lot of guessing theories that need to tested, verified, confirmed valid or ruled out. All the possibilities need to be explored and logically ruled out one by one. This is a Perfectly Normal process of finding problem issues, but again I am afraid the Lay Person will mis-take these as negative actions somehow.

Please continue to pursue with cA and Exact and let us know the final analysis and conclusion when you have it. I would prefer you give us the full report good, bad or indifferent, but I suggest you do so once you know the final results.

In the mean time, I will tell you that there are certain brands of tires out there that will have excess amounts of rubber, causing a mis-balance situation.

The DSP9000 DOES NOT have the road force balance capability, so for John at Exact the excessive weight is due to the machine telling him that's the best it can do to designate where to put weight and how much.

It sounds like you need the DSP9700 which does road force balance and is the only machine that can resolve excessive mis-balance due to the production related anomalies of your tire.

In 90+% of the cases a standard balance will do and using a 9000 is fine, for those with severe tire balance problems then a 9700 is the only way to go.

So I don't want to be too presumptuous on diagnosing your problem, but assuming the balance is resolved with the Hunter 9700, I need to point out that the root cause of the problem is the poor production process contol of the tire, not a problem with the installer(s).

In worse cases you can actually return the tire as being defective, because that's basically what we are talking here.

Last item. As I am saying now and I have been saying forever on these forums, for problem issues with businessses you patronize, please give the shop an opportunity to resolve any problems and reconcile them. If you are not satisfied with the end results, we want to hear about it. That holds for our sponsors on CL or otherwise. This is not said just for Exact but any business.

I think the JonBenet case in the news is a perfect example of publicizing a case against John Karr, before he has an opportunity to have a fair trial. Like it or not he deserves a fair and un-baised trial of his peers.

When it comes to comments on these forums about vendors, I suggest that people present a fair assessment of their problem issues and be too judgemental until all the facts and final conclusions are known.

In the end, I don't know if it is the tires or if it is a problem that Exact may have induced. Regardless, we all want to know the final results which will only serve to correct this issue in the future.

Keep us posted and give me a call if you have any questions.

Suneet

Well the guys at Custom alignment did a great job. My vibration problem is fixed. Joe took care of everything for me, and on very short notice (they are super busy!), so I was very appreciative. And I made use of that gift certificate I won that day

Glen: I'm sorry if my post seemed presumptious. That was not my intent at all. I was merely sharing my story and my experiences. I still think very highly of John and Exact motorsports and I still will be taking my car there again! I was just mentioning my story becuase he was as baffled by it as I was. I also mentioned in the story how nice it was that John took the time, even though he was EXTREMELY busy, to test drive my car, and to try and fix my problem the second I drove there.

As I said before, I was with him when he balanced the wheel.. and sure enough, the machine said it was perfectly balanced! So my intention was to just inform people that sometimes even that Hunter 9000 is not adequte, and even when it tells you you have a perfect balance.. you can get terrible results!

At CA they used the 9700 and now the car feels great. Unfortunately they did not have time for an alignment, so I will be getting that done elsewhere today, and then the car should feel even better.

All in all, it was just an annoying experience. But I thanked John and Sandy numerous times for doing all they could, and I never thought originally that it was a problem with the installers... I was with John when he did it and I saw it myself (not that I needed to.. I trust him).

The purpose of this thread really was just to share my experiences. I was pretty confident that the issue was a tire balancing one, but I was just talking about my first time going to both of these shops and I commend all parties involved for trying to resolve my issue.

From now on, I'll def be taking all my tires to CA, and I'll be getting all my maintenance done at Exact.. So I'm all taken care of.

Suneet

Glen, I'm terribly sorry if you felt my comments were critical of Exact. That was not my intent at all. I was merely sharing my story in an unbiased way. Hence I posted in the NorCal forum, and the intent of the story was not to convey a negative image, but rather a positive one. Like I said above, John did all he could to resolve the problem, and its a weird problem that not many people have, so I wanted to inform everyone of that as well and the steps we went through.

You are absoultely correct about negative publicity and that was in no ways my intent. I felt that I spoke solidly of Exact the whole time, perhaps some of my frustration with the issue led me to use a somber tone throughout the post, causing someone to believe that I was complaining. But that was not what I was trying to do. I was just sharing my first time experience, (without attaching a good OR a bad). But I still commended Exact. as well as CA

I believe the only negative thing I said above was that I didn't like the way the other mechanic was saying things to me. But I think this happens to me often, becuase I'm young. People don't take you seriously. And I look even younger than I am. And thats just a feeling that I got from him, I can't recall exactly what he said, so I was just describing that feeling. Perhaps I was wrong in perceiving it that way, but I did. I didn't take offense to it, and it wont stop me from going there again, but it was part of the experience that day.

RMMGS4

iTrader: (5)

Suneet,
it is only because I know that though you are young in age, the maturity and professionalisim are there and I respect that.

I think that when people post their experiences it is human nature to somewhat vent frustrations and some other instances I have seen people outright slam a vendor in frustration and not even go back to the vendor to try and reconcile it in the first place.

I know your intentions are well meaning, and at the same time I use it as a learning tool for everyone when it comes to giving advice positive or negative.

Again I know you are happy with Exact, but like I said the tone of your title let me have an idea on what you were feeling at the time of your post. So without mentioning names I'm sure you have seen others post with very strong feelings on a subject and then later on find themselves regretting what they say. In your case, no apologies required and like I said, my comments are there to educate and grow the knowledge base of the community.

So in closing, Exact should probably look into getting a 9700 or atleast be cognicant of the fact that balance problems with new tires or severe vibration issues should be referred to Custom Alignment.

On the other hand, I would like to point out that for several years I have seen threads on other CL forums where people change half their car and in one case trash their current tires and wheels in order to resolve their vibration problem. In other cases I see how people report a fix to a vibration problem by changing rotors, bushings, etc. when in actuality those fixes are just a result of the originating cause. All they have done is put a bandaid on the true cause.

In your case Suneet, you were blessed with attending the Custom Alignment Seminar, you listened and learned and to your credit, you resolved your problem the right way. I will estimate that 80% of the vibration problems out there that have to do with a change in tires/wheels have to do with balance. So many people balance on a machine that IS NOT a 9700. This is partly why i point out that Exact is not lone in not having a 9700 at their premisis. At around $10k not many shops do have it.

So on with the story. There are many outside the bay area who will balance their tires several times do an alignement and not realize that their true problem is not using a 9700 for their balancing.

I can't save the world but we can help out the locals here who attend meets such as you and learn a thing here and there at meets such as the one hosted by Custom Alignment each year.

shiwen

sometimes even the best brands of tires are far from perfect. i have a good friend who even went through custom to fix his ride and it really just came down to bad tires. custom could only take it so far. it's good to hear that in your case they were able to do enough.

the few stories I've read on cl about exact and problem solving really speaks volumes about how much they care and want to do right for their customers. it's too bad all businesses in the bay area don't have the kind of customer service that john and sandy provide.

and here's a link to a story i was referencing about the lube causing tires to slip on certain wheels..

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...n+balance+lube

mikequity

Just got some HID installs and Spoiler Installs done at Exact, and am happy to chime in about how fast, courteous, professional and helpful they are there.

My car's only a few months old so I don't have any tire issues yet, but where can I learn about potential tire problems as some seem to be referring to in earlier posts. Is there some kind of seminar I can sign up for somewhere?

-mike

rominl

iTrader: (4)

man....... so long, and didn't bother to read all (yawn.... )

anyway, i just want to say, (and it's not against anyone or with anyone, just from an objective point of view). if we really want to get fair on everyone and everything, then over 70% of the threads on CL have to be deleted. everyone has their freedom to post here (under rules), and to certain extend there could be emotions or not. it's not up to any of us to judge whether something is fair or not. if it's some other shops out there not exact, i am sure the content would have been so different here.

in the end, i guess i am saying it's pointless to spend so much time to go over just the title. whoever reads that and makes any conclusion from there, personally i can care less about their contributions here. everyone who reads the posts understand suneet's concern and experience.

to me the conclusion i drew was that exact has been very helpful and accomodate, and although in this incident they couldn't fix the problem, but they did their best. and from my past experience with them, i know they would continue to improve if they know what their problem was.

at this point, my question to suneet is, could CA tell you the exact problem behind and why the previous setup failed and the tire actually "rotate" and "shifted" around the wheel? i think that's the ultimate information that everyone wants to know, including exact.

personally i am not sure if it's just the machine? and even so, i remember joe said, it's not just about the machine as well, it's also about how good the tech is to use the machine to get the job done.

the subject, it's just a subject

EXACT

Hi, Suneet! Thanks goodness you have your tires fixed at CA. John & I were surprise when you call to complain your car vibrated badly again. We never encounter this kind of problem before. We apoligized for your inconvenience & frustration. As for what Steve said what might caused the vibration are still need to check & confirm, he just give you some examples what may be causing the problem also. Thank you for your understanding at the end, we are trying our best to resolve any problems that arise. We will look into a new balance machine if problem ever occur again.

Thank you Glen for your info what might cause the tires to off balance & your suggestion for 9700 balance machine will solve the problem. Thank you.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

how awesome it is to have te vendor checking the forum constantly and provide humble and positive response to members. it's great that sandy you come over and understand the issue, i am sure john is already looking into solutions!

JspecSC3

iTrader: (4)

If the wheels are new with new tires and they require so much weight to be taped on so it can zero out, then I suggest that you just get them road force balanced. I believe those Hunter balancers can do the trick. The reason your rear vibrates so much might be because the tire is not fully round. If it is off by 10 oz and the wheel is not bent then it is the tire. Just have them remount it on the the wheel and road match it. It lowers the amount of weight needed to zero out the wheel dramatically.

RMMGS4

iTrader: (5)

Yes Roger, your right.

That's pretty much what Suneet did and I suggested to use the 9700 instead of the 9000.

Good to see people here being knowledgeable about the values of road force balancing.