cm0nkey

After the ball joints failed on my GS I decided to mail Lexus about the issue, I am sure they are well aware of it.

My car had all services done by Lexus Svc centers at 10k, 60k, 90k, 120k, and was inspected at 139,903 by Lexus - at no point did the ball joints get replaced or recommended to be replaced. The failure was just a few thousand miles later at 142k.

Anyway, I was curious to see if anyone else had ever called or mailed Lexus Corporate before and what the response was.

When I hear back I will let you know what they tell me.

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

you got a tech that was being lazy and just didn't check them

I replace ball joints on all kinds of cars and trucks on a daily basis... probably the worst is the ford trucks - I've recommended them on trucks with as low as 25,000 miles (recommendation for a small amount of play), and according to MAP guidelines, with a large amount of play, they are a "required" replacement - on a truck with just 30,000 miles...

your complaint should be with the service department of your dealership, and their lack of a thorough inspection, if anything...

cm0nkey

Understood,

Seems like I got several lazy techs in a row or something. The problem is I dont know which lexus dealership did the work, the service history did not tell me that.

Maybe someone can tell from this:

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

wow, that does suck... to pass a 128 point inspection, and then just after, have a ball joint fail like that... not typical at all...

edit: if you look at the service history, it was 35000 miles between times lexus looked at it, so, the only one that should have caught it is whoever did the 120k service and the pre-owned inspection, which, looking at RO numbers, appears to be the same dealership... potentially whoever you bought the car from...

UDel

I called Lexus corporate once and sent them a letter about my door lock actuator failure. Even though the car had only 47K miles and was just 2 or 3 months past warranty they said too bad they are not covering it nor even paying part of it because it was a woping 2 or 3 months past warranty even after making me go to the dealership and varifying the issue, they were absolutely worthless, really turned me off to Lexus. They even said it was not a problem with the GS or other cars and just a isolated incident unique to my car, yeah right, I wonder what is going through their heads when the have all these orders for door lock actuators and all the complaints they receive.

Meanwhile every time my parents have had even a slight issue with their Acuras, Acura always made sure they were happy, even after their warranty was up. Recently my mom had a code for emissions in which they said the egr valve was clogged with carbon deposits and wanted over $200 to fix. I researched the code/issue and found out the problem and that their was a fix that was warrantied to 80K miles that included adding a metal tube in a hole to stop it from clogging up. I told my mom to call them up and complain that the egr valve could be a emissions issue which is covered to 150K miles on Acuras and they decided to fully reimburse her for the repair and pay for it even though that particular issue was warrantied to 80K miles and she has almost 100K miles. That is taking care of your customers and why my parents and I have a very high opinion of Acrua.

I am going to call, email, and write Lexus about the prematurely failing balljoint problems with 2nd Gen GSs as every GS owner should do but I expect nothing from them and the same it is out of warranty so it is your problem and we are not going to address it and ignore it even though the lower ball joints were not properly designed and failing prematurely and failures can lead to potentially fatal accidents and thousands of dollars worth of damage, they will probrably say again that it is just a isolated problem and not a widespread issue. I guess it will take media coverage of a serious accident before they finally address the issue.

GRAND_LS 4

iTrader: (2)

sad, but it will take a few deaths before eyes start to roll at Lexus corp.

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

You guys act like the GS400 is the only car in the world that a ball joint has failed on...

I have cars towed to my shop with ball joints that have fallen apart on a somewhat regular basis...

Everything from Fords (the worst probably) to Chevys to Hondas to you name it....

Every manufacturer has inspection intervals for ball joints, as it is definitely a safety issue, and IS a wearable item... How long are they supposed to last??? 30k? 60k? 100k?

the OP's lasted 140k miles... not bad for a wearable part on a car... I have personally had customers with loose ball joints on cars / trucks with LESS than 30K miles... obviously still under warranty... Some vehicles require more than just shaking the wheel up and down to find a bad ball joint - due to suspension design, many ball joints require to be loaded to be checked properly, and then, the proper way is to put a pry bar under the wheel/tire and pry up, not shake the wheel up and down...

I just looked it up, and Lexus requires the ball joints/dust boots be inspected at EVERY oil change, EVERY 5,000 MILES...

Ball joints do not just pop out without being loose for a long time prior...


As far as the emissions issue with the Acura, all car manufacturers are more than happy to take care of emissions problems, especially if there is a TSB listed for its repair, at least all of the cases I've dealt with...

UDel

Every mechanic I took my Lexus too that was not a Lexus/Toyota mechanic gave me a strange look when I asked them to check my ball joints because they thought that was an odd request on a car with under 200K miles. They all said ball joints are generally supposed to last the lifetime of the car and it is extremely rare to have them replaced even under 300K miles unless the car is raced and abused, driven off road in rocky terrain, is extremely heavy and overloaded. They said they hardly ever see ball joint failures on regular passenger cars and usaully can narrow it down to why they went-abuse, hitting curb, no properly installed, etc and they also said usaully they don't cause a bunch of serious damage when they go. I told them there was a issue with Lexus GS balljoints and they were shocked when I said many go out at 100K and even less and they said that is not normal and balljoints should not be failing anywhere near 100K miles. Our family has owned Hondas, Acuras, Oldmobiles, Datsuns/Nissans, Pontiacs, Mercedes, and put well over 100K miles and over 200K miles on a few and have never had any kind of ball joint issue nor heard of others having one. I had a Mitsu Eclipse with 170K miles and even though a ton of things went bad I never had any kind of ball joint issue nor was warned about replacing them. I rarely hear about ball joint issues and if so they are isolated except for the 2nd Gen GS's and older Tundras/4 runners.

For ball joints to just be failing for no real reason around 100K miles at the frequency they are on the GS is a problem and a design defect that needs to be addressed and unfortunately it is not being addressed. Other cars may have some isolated incidents but nothing like what is happening with the 2nd Gen GS.

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

ASE certified for 2 years, in the mechanical business for 8, tires for 10... I've seen and replaced hundreds of ball joints on vehicles...

There is a good chance that the vehicles you owned had ball joint issues, just no one was paying close enough attention to actually know it. 300K miles on a set of ball joints? um, no... I mean, sure, possibly, but that they are all supposed to last that long??? absolutely not...

in fact, if you would like proof, I'll take pictures daily of how many cars we recommend ball joints on due to looseness... I would bet its 2-3 cars a day...

as I stated earlier, some vehicles have specific ball joint testing procedures that are more than the lift it up and shake it... here's another thing - did you know many vehicles have wear indicators on their ball joints?

I'd still like to know why all vehicle manufacturers recommend checking ball joints as early as 5000 miles if they are supposed to last the lifetime of the vehicle... man, who told you that?

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

here's some references other than myself:

http://www.performanceoiltechnology....elongevity.htm
" 1. Ball Joints: these always seem to be a problem with me. Every single vehicle I have owned has required ball joints at a fairly low mileage. I become quite upset when I remove the OEM parts and find they are either frozen and do not move or are extremely loose. The failed ball joints resulted in sloppy or erratic steering, alignment problems and excessive tire wear. The problem I have found is that the original ball joints do not come with grease fittings. There are supposed to be “sealed for life”, however I find that is hardly the case. I do not replace them with the manufacturers parts because the same thing is bound to happen again. I have always purchased NAPA’s premium quality ball joints designed for severe duty fleet use that come with grease fittings. Since I began doing this on every vehicle I have never had another ball joint failure. I periodically grease the ball joints with AMSOIL Heavy-Duty Synthetic NLGI #2, GC/LB moly-based grease."

here's a link that says anywhere from 25k to 200k, just like my original post:
http://autorepair.about.com/library/faqs/bl952c.htm
"A. That is a little tough to answer. I have seen ball joints last 200,000 miles and I have seen ball joints go bad after 25,000 miles. A lot depends on the conditions the vehicle operates under."

on a hyundai forum:
http://www.hyundai-forums.com/t8038-...oints-last.htm
regarding a car with 43,000 miles:
your ball joints are covered for 5yr/60,000 miles.there have been issues with the ball joints on santa fes.some last longer than others.im a hyundai tech and have seen both, ball joints go bad earlier than yours and later.

this person clearly has an issue with ball joints:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_should_the_lower_ball_joints_last_on_a_98_Chevy_blazer_can't_get_more_than_a_year_out_of_a_set
"How long should the lower ball joints last on a 98 Chevy blazer can't get more than a year out of a set?"

Ford trucks - less than 50k miles, two different owners:
http://www.topix.com/forum/autos/for...DVLEKSIR1JMV0J
Capt T wrote:
Bought new F250 FX 4x4 in mid 2004. Has 39,000 miles on it and the dealer wants $1,250 for new upper and lower, right and left Ball Joints. This is an outrage. This Truck is PAMPERED, not a work truck. Ford REFUSES to help.
Never ever ever buy a Ford Truck again. Toyota would not fail at 140,000 miles
So much for a 35,000 mile warantee on Ford. Now I know why. Thats as long as they can last.

I feel your pain!! I have a 2004 4x4 f250 crew with 50,000 miles and my ball joints are done as well. Had a local garage start the job but only let them do one side after they hammered the f#@k out of my rotor / hub which had too be replaced along with my wheel bearings. Anyway long story short I'm pissed and not going to buy a $39,000.00 truck that's a piece of sh#t after the 36,000 mile warrenty is up.

heres one - 56k kilometers:
http://www.f150online.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65594
"how long should the upper ball joint last..I own a 1999 f150 supercab flairside and I just had the upper ball joints replaced at 56000 km"

heres yet another automotive information page:

When To Replace Ball Joints
http://www.aa1car.com/library/ball_joints.htm
"Ball joints may last 70,000 to 150,000 miles or more. Their lifespan depends on usage, road conditions and exposure to road splash and salt. If a joint is worn, it has reached the end of its service life and should be replaced. Worn ball joints can be dangerous and should be replaced. But should only the worn joint be replaced or should the other ball joints be replaced, too? The Motorist Assurance Program (MAP) guidelines say replacement is only required for a joint that is worn beyond factory specifications. Even so, many experts recommend replacing both joints (both uppers, both lowers, or all four). Doing so may actually be more convenient and less expensive in the long run than replacing individual joints as each wears out."

last one I care to post, I found hundreds:
http://www.autoqna.com/Maintenance-R...autoqna-3.html
Question:
My mechanic says I need new ball joints for my S-10, does anyone know how long they last---as should I get the lifetime warranty or the 1yr warranty on the parts? The labor is the most expensive part.

Answer:
Blondi. I regularly service my dad's 98 4wd S-10. Its got 26,500 the upper joints are greasable but the bottoms are not at least their not according to my recollection. What happens is the top joints are somewhat difficult to get the grease gun properly because it gets buried in road dirt, sand and mud. It's best to remove the front tires and carefully clean the grease fitting. Add at two full strokes of grease and you'll be OK . I dodged your original question. With 3,000 mile grease intervals they should last forever. However they give up the ghost quickly if they're not greased regularly. Reason being truck joints work in a very harsh environment. Alwaye use either TRW or Moog parts. Forget the quick box store junk. alot longer when you don't hit curbs ball joints generally last about 3/4 yrs even those so called lifetimers First there is no standard for ball joints life. It depends on many factors. Second are they offering you a lifetime warranty on labor?
If yes how much more are they charging you for that? Keep in mind that if they use a good quality part they should last as long as the first ones so will you have the vehicle that long? They are usually good for 100k +/- miles under normal driving conditions. They use to last years. Since 1974 cars just don't last. Now new ones have aluminum suspension parts. Now that's a joke. It all depends on the driver. 100000K how long a ball joint lasts depends on how well it's been mantained.,..do you get the front end greased???..if there still OE (original equipment) there aren't any grease fittings...sounds like you purchasing your ball joints at auto zone.....the warranty is not the question the quality of the part is more important...the best brand to buy is MOOG.....

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

one last one:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/how_...32.html?page=1

It started as a clicking noise as you backed out of the drive. Just a mild tap through the steering wheel. Sometimes it's not even there. But as the mileage builds over the next few weeks, the click gets bigger. Then it starts to morph into a thump as you go over potholes. A thump that turns into a shimmy. You jack up the front end and shake the wheels side to side--no problem. You shake them up and down. Big problem. There's a half-inch of slop on one wheel, though the other is tight. The diagnosis: You've got a bad ball joint.

NOTHING IS FOREVER
Front suspension parts eventually wear out, but this sudden onset of slop in your ball joint probably means a lubrication failure. But wait! you say. My ball joints are sealed--there's no grease fitting to pump fresh lubricant into. They're Lubed For Life, like it says right here in the owner's manual.

Exactly.

You've just discovered the true life span of a permanently lubed suspension joint. The lubrication finally dries out, water intrudes inside the boot covering the moving parts, and rust and abrasive road dirt turn a ball joint or tie rod end into a loosey-goosey accident waiting to happen. Do not delay in repairing a failing ball joint or tie rod end. When it fails, the wheel involved will try to part company with your vehicle, and not quite succeed in doing so. This will precipitate two unfortunate events: loss of control at some speed, and considerable damage to the rest of the vehicle.

Och

iTrader: (3)

You guys are whining about ball joints on the GS, which is like $60 for a pair, and 30 minutes labor, and no wheel alignment required, so total cost is around $100.

Try replacing ball joints on other cars, lets say a Honda, where you will have to take apart half of suspension and require wheel alignment, costing you about $600 all together.

Just suck it up and keep you ball joints inspected, and replace if they are loose.

P.S.

The balljoints issue is really blown out of proportions with the GS. On my old GS300 I replaced them with almost 130K on the clock, and my mechanic said they were still quite OK. And on my GS430 I replaced them with 80K on, and they barely had any play at all. And I drive in NYC, which has some of the worst roads in USA. But then again, I run stock 17" tires, and if you're driving with 20's or more, then you should expect to replace ball joints and other suspension parts more often.

cm0nkey

Lame.....

Lexus got my letter which included many pictures and the defective ball joint.
They had a rep call me and ask what they could do to resolve the problem.

I asked for 2 things, Bodywork on the damaged fender & new ABS sensors.

The rep asked me to take the car to my local dealer to get a quote on these items, which I did.

Fender = 900ish
2 new ABS sensors = 1000ish (What a ripoff)


So I provided the estimates to Lexus to them as requested, today they called back and said they will not be helping because they cannot be sure the accident was due to the ball joint!!

Weak, I sent them their busted POS ball joint back, they have photos.. its pretty dang obvious what happened.


I expect they will not charge me the $100 drop off fee at the dealer as I requested they at least cover that for waisting my time.

If they weren't going to do anything in the first place why did I need to get the quotes?

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

I'm tellin ya, Lexus corporate is not the ones to go after, the dealership is...

when they do a vehicle inspection, it's a legally binding document as to the true condition of the car...

VVT-i

I don't see how Lexus corp can do anything about your car since it's out of warranty and high mileages.If you're an original and deal with the dealership then you can go back to them and complaint about the incident.