All fluids flushed & changed?
02-11-04, 07:13 PM
#61
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I am not sure how I missed this thread - four pages long before I began to read it.
I think the operative word here is chemistry. Or rather the lack of understanding regarding chemistry. And maybe some simple physics.
For the fluid changes:
Engine oil wears out, but in the sense that its chemistry is changed by the addition of contaminents, and also by temperature and oxidation. The base hydrocarbon molecules change and the additive package, which may constitute over 20% of the volume of the oil in the bottle, is depleted. So contamination, depletion, and molecular change happen.
Wwest, at first you talk about re-cycled oil, and then later about re-refined. Both terms are used but the eco-freaks like re-cycled. In any event the oil is collected for its hydrocarbons, which are then re-distilled to create what is in essence, "new oil". As a oil company exec once told me, used engine oil is closer to new engine oil that crude oil is. The process is the same, the starting point different. Regardless, the re-cycled oil must meet SAE, API and ILSAC specs before it can be sold as warranty approved.
Auto transmissions also heat the oil, sometimes beyond the temps the engine oil encounters, and once again the chemistry of the oil is changed over time. Less contamination from outside sources takes place, but more particulates are introduced from the friction materials in the trans. It needs to be changed.
Brake fluid, as mentioned, is hygroscopic, and the water that enters is distributed by diffusion throughout the volume of the fluid. This lowers boiling point, causes a spongy pedal feel, and contributes to corrosion. Change the brake fluid.
Engine coolant must be changed, because the glycol, although buffered against reacting with the dissimilar metals in the engine, and combining with minerals in the water, will eventually lose its additive qualities. It needs to be changed, although, like oil, the glycol molecules can be recycled to produce new antifreeze.
The only fluid which is probably changed more frequently than needed is the differential oil, which has about the easiest job possible in the drivetrain. Temperatures are routinely low, there is little or no contamination, and very few particles are formed that aren't captured by the magnet. A 100k replacement interval is probably more than enough.
My fingers are tired now.
I think the operative word here is chemistry. Or rather the lack of understanding regarding chemistry. And maybe some simple physics.
For the fluid changes:
Engine oil wears out, but in the sense that its chemistry is changed by the addition of contaminents, and also by temperature and oxidation. The base hydrocarbon molecules change and the additive package, which may constitute over 20% of the volume of the oil in the bottle, is depleted. So contamination, depletion, and molecular change happen.
Wwest, at first you talk about re-cycled oil, and then later about re-refined. Both terms are used but the eco-freaks like re-cycled. In any event the oil is collected for its hydrocarbons, which are then re-distilled to create what is in essence, "new oil". As a oil company exec once told me, used engine oil is closer to new engine oil that crude oil is. The process is the same, the starting point different. Regardless, the re-cycled oil must meet SAE, API and ILSAC specs before it can be sold as warranty approved.
Auto transmissions also heat the oil, sometimes beyond the temps the engine oil encounters, and once again the chemistry of the oil is changed over time. Less contamination from outside sources takes place, but more particulates are introduced from the friction materials in the trans. It needs to be changed.
Brake fluid, as mentioned, is hygroscopic, and the water that enters is distributed by diffusion throughout the volume of the fluid. This lowers boiling point, causes a spongy pedal feel, and contributes to corrosion. Change the brake fluid.
Engine coolant must be changed, because the glycol, although buffered against reacting with the dissimilar metals in the engine, and combining with minerals in the water, will eventually lose its additive qualities. It needs to be changed, although, like oil, the glycol molecules can be recycled to produce new antifreeze.
The only fluid which is probably changed more frequently than needed is the differential oil, which has about the easiest job possible in the drivetrain. Temperatures are routinely low, there is little or no contamination, and very few particles are formed that aren't captured by the magnet. A 100k replacement interval is probably more than enough.
My fingers are tired now.
Last edited by SRK; 02-11-04 at 09:21 PM.
02-22-04, 03:26 PM
#63
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Here's my take on the service situation:
Oil and filter changes according to the Lexus spec - not the dealer spec. I might do this, or might let the dealer do this. I would never let a Jiffy Lube place touch any car that I own. Changing oil every 3000 miles when the mfg suggests 5500 is a waste of money. Check out the Consumer Reports oil change article that talks about the taxi test in NYC.
Transmission fluid change at somewhere between the Lexus regular and adverse driving spec. Transmission fluid changes are cheaper than a new transmission. I'd also change the filter along with the fluid. I did transmission fluid once. Never again. It's too much of a filthy job.
Differential - I've never changed the differential fluid on any car, and have never had any problems with the rear end. I'd only change it if it somehow became contaminated.
Brake Fluid - By the time bad brake fluid could corrode my master cylinder or caliper pistons, it will be time to replace them anyway. I wouldn't bother changing the fluid. I would make sure that the brake reservoir seal is in good shape, and would only use brand new brake fluid when adding to the system. It does pick up water if exposed to the environment. Unless you have a leak in the system, the brake fluid should not be exposed to the air very often.
Antifreeze - Go with the Lexus mfg spec - again, ignore the dealer's spec. Coolant supposedly loses anticorrosion capability. I usually flush and fill my coolant system every 3 -4 years if the coolant looks clean.
Power Steering: Skip it, unless it somehow got contaminated.
Air Filter: It's simple for an owner to monitor and replace dirty air filters. They're cheap if you buy them yourself. I gently shake them out every so often, and replace them every year.
Gas Filter - Every two years. Probably overkill, but they're cheaper than gunked up fuel injectors.
I do have a major problem paying a dealer to do something that I can't easily verify (check belts for wear, check fluids, check filters, etc). I've seen too many situations where a dealer promises to check a bunch of things during an oil change, and fails to deliver on any of them. Even though they're selling and servicing Lexus automobiles, they're still car dealers.
Oil and filter changes according to the Lexus spec - not the dealer spec. I might do this, or might let the dealer do this. I would never let a Jiffy Lube place touch any car that I own. Changing oil every 3000 miles when the mfg suggests 5500 is a waste of money. Check out the Consumer Reports oil change article that talks about the taxi test in NYC.
Transmission fluid change at somewhere between the Lexus regular and adverse driving spec. Transmission fluid changes are cheaper than a new transmission. I'd also change the filter along with the fluid. I did transmission fluid once. Never again. It's too much of a filthy job.
Differential - I've never changed the differential fluid on any car, and have never had any problems with the rear end. I'd only change it if it somehow became contaminated.
Brake Fluid - By the time bad brake fluid could corrode my master cylinder or caliper pistons, it will be time to replace them anyway. I wouldn't bother changing the fluid. I would make sure that the brake reservoir seal is in good shape, and would only use brand new brake fluid when adding to the system. It does pick up water if exposed to the environment. Unless you have a leak in the system, the brake fluid should not be exposed to the air very often.
Antifreeze - Go with the Lexus mfg spec - again, ignore the dealer's spec. Coolant supposedly loses anticorrosion capability. I usually flush and fill my coolant system every 3 -4 years if the coolant looks clean.
Power Steering: Skip it, unless it somehow got contaminated.
Air Filter: It's simple for an owner to monitor and replace dirty air filters. They're cheap if you buy them yourself. I gently shake them out every so often, and replace them every year.
Gas Filter - Every two years. Probably overkill, but they're cheaper than gunked up fuel injectors.
I do have a major problem paying a dealer to do something that I can't easily verify (check belts for wear, check fluids, check filters, etc). I've seen too many situations where a dealer promises to check a bunch of things during an oil change, and fails to deliver on any of them. Even though they're selling and servicing Lexus automobiles, they're still car dealers.
03-01-04, 11:39 AM
#65
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I'm glad you dug this thread up. I have learned a ton. 
I have a '97 LS and am about to have the timing belt, et al. done and have been wondering which fluids to take care of. Everything was done by dealer at 60K (previous owner) and am at 95k now. I'm basically just leaning towards just the tranny fluid now...
I have a '97 LS and am about to have the timing belt, et al. done and have been wondering which fluids to take care of. Everything was done by dealer at 60K (previous owner) and am at 95k now. I'm basically just leaning towards just the tranny fluid now...
03-01-04, 02:21 PM
#66
Brake Fluid
While Transmissions are clearly ( besides engines themselves ) the part that most easily cost justifies the judicious changing of fluids. There are other parts & systems where keeping fluids fresh just makes good sense.
Transmissions:
Best hint here is to do "drain & fills" at a rate that will keep your fluid nice and clean. Do this often enough and you do not have to worry about the more expensvie complete system flush. My guess would be that you Paddle Shifting GS Pilots need to be especially diligent. That option went away for a reason!!
Brakes:
Brake fluid is hygroscopic and wants to absorb water at all times , not simply when the top is off the master cylinder. As it absorbs more water it's boiling point drops. Not GOOD. Moreover, our ABS systems pulls in moisture at a much quicker rate due to the agitatation of the fluid.
I just switched to Ate Super Blue. Yes I know it is not the specified DOT rating recommended. It meets and exceeds what is required. Easy to justify since it should easily allow a 3 year service interval due to its high Dry/Wet boiling point. We are talking about BRAKES for Gods sake!! Cost me $40.00 or so last month. Safety & peace of mind for slightly more than the price of a tank of gas. No Brainer.
Power Steering Fluid:
In LS 400 's the PS Pump is a known weakspot. It is also not very cheap to purchase or replace. Ever priced a steering rack & hoses?? A search will reveal post on easy ways to change the fluid and to clean the filter screen.
Happy motoring, damon
Do your due diligence here , keep informed and don't let the dealer screw you!!
Transmissions:
Best hint here is to do "drain & fills" at a rate that will keep your fluid nice and clean. Do this often enough and you do not have to worry about the more expensvie complete system flush. My guess would be that you Paddle Shifting GS Pilots need to be especially diligent. That option went away for a reason!!
Brakes:
Brake fluid is hygroscopic and wants to absorb water at all times , not simply when the top is off the master cylinder. As it absorbs more water it's boiling point drops. Not GOOD. Moreover, our ABS systems pulls in moisture at a much quicker rate due to the agitatation of the fluid.
I just switched to Ate Super Blue. Yes I know it is not the specified DOT rating recommended. It meets and exceeds what is required. Easy to justify since it should easily allow a 3 year service interval due to its high Dry/Wet boiling point. We are talking about BRAKES for Gods sake!! Cost me $40.00 or so last month. Safety & peace of mind for slightly more than the price of a tank of gas. No Brainer.
Power Steering Fluid:
In LS 400 's the PS Pump is a known weakspot. It is also not very cheap to purchase or replace. Ever priced a steering rack & hoses?? A search will reveal post on easy ways to change the fluid and to clean the filter screen.
Happy motoring, damon
Do your due diligence here , keep informed and don't let the dealer screw you!!
03-01-04, 04:50 PM
#67
Racer
Dextron III is a fluid, not a tonic.....
You said it yourself- on the LS400 (and SC400, by the way) the power steering pump is a known weakspot. Hundreds, if not thousands of us have had to replace the PS pump on these cars- this forum is full of our posts.
If only it was that easy to cure that weakspot by changing the PS fluid, but that's not the case- if you got one of the bum PS pumps it's gonna fail no matter what you do.
If only it was that easy to cure that weakspot by changing the PS fluid, but that's not the case- if you got one of the bum PS pumps it's gonna fail no matter what you do.
03-01-04, 08:04 PM
#68
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WOW !!! ........... What is it about these cars, that they are so maintenance-intensive? Certainly, Tercel owners are not paying $1100 for five hours work at the Toyota store. Man-O-Man, I didn't spend $1100 total over the 265,000 miles operation on an Caprice Classic -- and the new owner drove it away, happy as a clam. Never had a car we didn't drive at least 150,000 miles, and often passed it on to a family memeber. I will definately buy another Lexus, but I'll never "buy" into their "over-the-top" maintenance requirements. It's too easy to get addicted to the excellent Lexus dealer network, and their offerings.
Bill
Bill
03-01-04, 11:37 PM
#69
PS Pump
Perry,
All I can tell you is my pump is on a 94 LS with 152,854
I'm pretty certain that fluid contamanation can hasten the cost you have incurred.
Never had a caliper lock up either, but when you do you pay for a new caliper , new pads , new sensor , & new rotor. + install. Don't even want to think what a new ABS unit would cost if that somehow went bad,
Fluids don't guarantee that this can't & won't happen. It's just a rather cheap form of insurance,
damon
BTW: I don't follow dealer service guidelines either. My Car has not seen one ( Lexus Dealer) in 2 1/2 years.
All I can tell you is my pump is on a 94 LS with 152,854
I'm pretty certain that fluid contamanation can hasten the cost you have incurred.
Never had a caliper lock up either, but when you do you pay for a new caliper , new pads , new sensor , & new rotor. + install. Don't even want to think what a new ABS unit would cost if that somehow went bad,
Fluids don't guarantee that this can't & won't happen. It's just a rather cheap form of insurance,
damon
BTW: I don't follow dealer service guidelines either. My Car has not seen one ( Lexus Dealer) in 2 1/2 years.
03-03-04, 12:17 AM
#70
Brake Fluid
All right let's totally beat this to death with an interesting fact filled Link:
This information was compiled by Gary Hackney and was edited for Volvo cars by S. Ringlee. .
To achieve a DOT rating, the fluid must meet both dry and wet boiling point specifications. In addition to DOT level, another important consideration in selecting a brake fluid is the presence of anti-corrosion additives, commonly found in street fluids but not in track fluids. Note that Volvo ABS-equipped cars must have brake fluids flushed every two years to remove moisture, renew additives, and prevent corrosion.
[From Hackney:] The "Estimated BP After 6-months" column is estimated based on a page I found that says brake fluid gains about 3.5% moisture per year, which is where the wet boiling point is measured. Assuming linear degradation this column is where you'd be. The last two columns may be confusing. They're the price per ounce, divided by the degrees F the fluid exceeds the dry or wet DOT spec; sort of a price for performance number where lower is better. Yeah, I'm an engineer. .
Link to comparison column:
http://www.swedishbricks.net/700900F...Comparison.htm
happy reading = safe motoring
damon
This information was compiled by Gary Hackney and was edited for Volvo cars by S. Ringlee. .
To achieve a DOT rating, the fluid must meet both dry and wet boiling point specifications. In addition to DOT level, another important consideration in selecting a brake fluid is the presence of anti-corrosion additives, commonly found in street fluids but not in track fluids. Note that Volvo ABS-equipped cars must have brake fluids flushed every two years to remove moisture, renew additives, and prevent corrosion.
[From Hackney:] The "Estimated BP After 6-months" column is estimated based on a page I found that says brake fluid gains about 3.5% moisture per year, which is where the wet boiling point is measured. Assuming linear degradation this column is where you'd be. The last two columns may be confusing. They're the price per ounce, divided by the degrees F the fluid exceeds the dry or wet DOT spec; sort of a price for performance number where lower is better. Yeah, I'm an engineer. .
Link to comparison column:
http://www.swedishbricks.net/700900F...Comparison.htm
happy reading = safe motoring
damon
Last edited by damon; 03-03-04 at 10:31 AM.
03-03-04, 06:04 AM
#71
How does this look???
LEXUS MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE
2004 Lexus ES 330
Every 4,000 Miles:
Oil and Oil Filter Change
Every 30,000 Miles:
Air Filter Change
Brake Fluid Change
Air Conditioner Filter Change
Every 60,000 Miles:
Coolant Change
Transmission/Differential Fluid Change
Power Steering Fluid Change
Battery Check/Change
Every 90,000 Miles:
Timing Belt Change
Water Pump Change
Hoses and Belts Check/Change
Every 120,000 Miles:
Spark Plugs Change/Tune Up
Every 3 Months:
Exterior High Quality Professional Wax Application
Every 1 Year:
Wiper Blade Inserts Change
LEXUS MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE
2004 Lexus ES 330
Every 4,000 Miles:
Oil and Oil Filter Change
Every 30,000 Miles:
Air Filter Change
Brake Fluid Change
Air Conditioner Filter Change
Every 60,000 Miles:
Coolant Change
Transmission/Differential Fluid Change
Power Steering Fluid Change
Battery Check/Change
Every 90,000 Miles:
Timing Belt Change
Water Pump Change
Hoses and Belts Check/Change
Every 120,000 Miles:
Spark Plugs Change/Tune Up
Every 3 Months:
Exterior High Quality Professional Wax Application
Every 1 Year:
Wiper Blade Inserts Change
03-04-04, 01:03 PM
#72
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I just got quoted from Lexus $125 to do the transmission oil change.He even told me there wasn't a filter to change and it only took 3-4 qts of fluid. How can this be $125???
Thanks,
Dean
Thanks,
Dean
03-04-04, 01:19 PM
#73
Racer
Supply and demand....
Because he chooses to charge that much and there are plenty of owners that are willing to pay that much for it. Such as those that lease their cars and deduct all maintenance costs as business expenses. If the car is already on the lift for other procedures, draining and refilling the ATF would only take a few additional moments- pretty profitable.
But as other posts mention, the ATF drain and refill process is straightforward so there's no need to go to a stealership and pay that much.
But as other posts mention, the ATF drain and refill process is straightforward so there's no need to go to a stealership and pay that much.
Last edited by PERRYinLA; 03-04-04 at 05:38 PM.
03-11-04, 09:52 AM
#74
believe it or not
Some jiffy lubes have this.
I get it done at a place called "sparkles lube and wash" in new york.
They use toyota type IV fluid for tranny and toyota brand diff fluid
Engine flush $50
Engine oil castrol gtx $28
Radiator flush and fill with toyota brand coolant $60
rear diferential oil change $43
front & rear brake bleed $45
power steering fluid flush and fill $40
T-Tech transmission fluid service and fill with toyota Type IV $140
fuel filter change $30
fuel injector cleaning $55
i get this done every year on my car which i drive about 20k miles/year
I get it done at a place called "sparkles lube and wash" in new york.
They use toyota type IV fluid for tranny and toyota brand diff fluid
Engine flush $50
Engine oil castrol gtx $28
Radiator flush and fill with toyota brand coolant $60
rear diferential oil change $43
front & rear brake bleed $45
power steering fluid flush and fill $40
T-Tech transmission fluid service and fill with toyota Type IV $140
fuel filter change $30
fuel injector cleaning $55
i get this done every year on my car which i drive about 20k miles/year