Is Rotor Turning/Resurfacing a Scam?
08-21-07, 06:57 PM
#1
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Is Rotor Turning/Resurfacing a Scam?
When my dealer says I need new Brake Pads, they usually tell me I need the complete "Brake Job" which includes resurfacing/turning the rotors. I usually tell them to forget about the resurfacing/turning and just put the brake pads on. One time they implied it was dangerous and a safety issue and tried to scare me and said "we won't do that" - and I said fine I'll take my business elsewhere. I said "what's the worst that can happen?" and they admittedly sheepishly said "well uh, it will squeal". Finally they agreed to do it but warned me "If it squeals, we won't be responsible." I said "Fine, I'll take my chances." Of course, everything was OK and no squeal/problems. I now have 53k on my car and everything is still fine. at maybe 100k or more i may get them turned, but this business of getting them turned at every brake pad replacement I think is a SCAM for more $$$$$$$ for the dealer. What are your thoughts?
08-21-07, 07:33 PM
#2
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No scam. As your brake pads wear down they ultimately glaze the surface of the rotor, thus reducing braking capability. On glazed rotors brake fade can become a big issue, especially on larger vehicles and/or high performance driving. As for resurfacing it also "trues" the surface of the rotor creating a completely flat surface for braking. Warped rotors can cause severe vibration during braking. When you opt not to turn rotors, you put the dealership/mechanic in a very compromising position. Factors that are compromised include integrity of repair(squeal), liability(brake fade), among other factors. As far as all this goes, you own a Lexus. How can you complain about $$$ and accuse the dealership of scamming you when you own a vehicle that was well over 30K when new?
08-21-07, 07:41 PM
#3
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>How can you complain about $$$ and accuse the dealership of scamming you when you own a vehicle that was well over 30K when new?
1. dealers are in the business of making money and they will take every opportunity to do so at the customer's expense- see any "dealer recommended maintenance schedules".
2. just because i happened to buy a car over $30k does not mean that I am required to passively bend over and let the dealer stick me in the rear and pick my pockets.
3. i don't mind spending money for legitimate maintenance, but i will not allow myself to get fleeced.
1. dealers are in the business of making money and they will take every opportunity to do so at the customer's expense- see any "dealer recommended maintenance schedules".
2. just because i happened to buy a car over $30k does not mean that I am required to passively bend over and let the dealer stick me in the rear and pick my pockets.
3. i don't mind spending money for legitimate maintenance, but i will not allow myself to get fleeced.
08-21-07, 08:41 PM
#5
The first time one steps on the brake. Brake pads material is transferred on the new surface and make the rotor "untrue". Glazing happens, vibration happens when there is uneven deposit of pad material, why would one cut a even surfaced rotor is beyond me.
Dealer always try to make you to pay for services that you don't need. There is no secret, cut the rotor will benefit them short term (service $) and long term (quicker replacement of rotor, more service & part $).
Dealer always try to make you to pay for services that you don't need. There is no secret, cut the rotor will benefit them short term (service $) and long term (quicker replacement of rotor, more service & part $).
08-21-07, 09:01 PM
#6
they actually charge money for turning rotors? any time a customer comes in for a brake job, we include turning the rotors as part of the deal... On most cars, it should be done - most rotors have some pretty decent grooving and it needs to be done...
If the rotors are thick enough and are fairly flat with no noticeable warping, then fine, slap some pads on, however, you will find that if you don't turn the rotors and they are grooved in the slightest, then you will get grinding, accelerated pad wear and squealing...
If the rotors are thick enough and are fairly flat with no noticeable warping, then fine, slap some pads on, however, you will find that if you don't turn the rotors and they are grooved in the slightest, then you will get grinding, accelerated pad wear and squealing...
08-21-07, 10:07 PM
#7
I have never in my life done a brake job, and not turned the rotors.
How are pads supposed to properly bed into the rotors, if the rotor doesnt have a clean and true surface? You will never get the best performance out of your brakes, unless you turn the rotors.
Scam? I doubt it... the cost of resurfacing/turning a rotor isnt exactly expensive, nor does it take a lot of time.
How are pads supposed to properly bed into the rotors, if the rotor doesnt have a clean and true surface? You will never get the best performance out of your brakes, unless you turn the rotors.
Scam? I doubt it... the cost of resurfacing/turning a rotor isnt exactly expensive, nor does it take a lot of time.
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08-22-07, 03:11 AM
#8
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I remember reading an article here saying that it's better to replace the rotors than turning them. Even if you've turned them, the performance would still not be the same as the new ones.
08-22-07, 09:02 AM
#9
Les in Dallas
08-22-07, 10:51 AM
#12
The true even surface on the rotor is a surface layer of even transfered pad material.
99% of mechanics just cut the rotor and unaware that proper pad bed-in process needs to take place to prevent furture warping. As a result, customers come back with more brake vibration later because of what of what is happening in this picture
I recommend an excellent white paper by StopTech on Warped Brake Disc Myth
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml
Few excerpts on the topic of uneven deposit, pad bed-in, and cutting rotors.
99% of mechanics just cut the rotor and unaware that proper pad bed-in process needs to take place to prevent furture warping. As a result, customers come back with more brake vibration later because of what of what is happening in this picture
I recommend an excellent white paper by StopTech on Warped Brake Disc Myth
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml
Few excerpts on the topic of uneven deposit, pad bed-in, and cutting rotors.
When disc brakes for high performance cars arrived on the scene we began to hear of "warped brake discs" on road going cars, with the same analyses and diagnoses. Typically, the discs are resurfaced to cure the problem and, equally typically, after a relatively short time the roughness or vibration comes back. Brake roughness has caused a significant number of cars to be bought back by their manufacturers under the "lemon laws". This has been going on for decades now - and, like most things that we have cast in stone, the diagnoses are wrong.
In fact every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a racing car or a street car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures
With adherent friction, some of the pad material diffuses across the interface between the pad and the disc and forms a very thin, uniform layer of pad material on the surface of the disc. As the friction surfaces of both disc and pad then comprise basically the same material, material can now cross the interface in both directions and the bonds break and reform. In fact, with adherent friction between pad and disc, the bonds between pad material and the deposits on the disc are transient in nature - they are continually being broken and some of them are continually reforming.
The only fix for extensive uneven deposits involves dismounting the discs and having them Blanchard ground - not expensive, but inconvenient at best. A newly ground disc will require the same sort of bedding in process as a new disc. The trouble with this procedure is that if the grinding does not remove all of the cementite inclusions, as the disc wears the hard cementite will stand proud of the relatively soft disc and the thermal spiral starts over again. Unfortunately, the cementite is invisible to the naked eyes.
Last edited by TunedRX300; 08-22-07 at 10:59 AM.
08-22-07, 12:43 PM
#13
It is definitely possible to warp a rotor...
I have seen it with my own eyes... Ford E350 cargo van, an Enterprise rental vehicle... runout was .100 on both front rotors... you can't tell me a tenth of an inch of material was transferred from the pad to the rotor to build it up that much... on our lathe, you could watch the whole rotor wobble - that is not pad transfer - that is downright rotor warpage.... HOWEVER, most times you have a wobble or pedal pulsation, you can attribute it to rotor hot spots and uneven pad transfer... In the situation above and also with hot spots, the rotors need to be replaced...
As MGS4 mentioned, replacing rotors with every brake pad replacement would ultimately be the best, but is not economically available to everyone. Certain vehicles do not have serviceable rotors at all, some BMW's, some Mercedes, and others have non-serviceable rotors, which basically means replace them every time you replace pads...
I have seen it with my own eyes... Ford E350 cargo van, an Enterprise rental vehicle... runout was .100 on both front rotors... you can't tell me a tenth of an inch of material was transferred from the pad to the rotor to build it up that much... on our lathe, you could watch the whole rotor wobble - that is not pad transfer - that is downright rotor warpage.... HOWEVER, most times you have a wobble or pedal pulsation, you can attribute it to rotor hot spots and uneven pad transfer... In the situation above and also with hot spots, the rotors need to be replaced...
As MGS4 mentioned, replacing rotors with every brake pad replacement would ultimately be the best, but is not economically available to everyone. Certain vehicles do not have serviceable rotors at all, some BMW's, some Mercedes, and others have non-serviceable rotors, which basically means replace them every time you replace pads...
08-22-07, 02:14 PM
#14
Circle back to the original poster's question, if driver do not feel vibration, which is what most people care regardless of cause, why cut rotors unnecessarily? All the shops that I encounters charges $ to cut rotor.
I don't see shops recommendate changing oxygen sensors before they die, or changing trannies before they slip. Gekko was able to get >53K of trouble free miles without cutting rotors. Obviously there was no warping to begin with. Why cutting an even surface that works perfectly fine?
I don't see shops recommendate changing oxygen sensors before they die, or changing trannies before they slip. Gekko was able to get >53K of trouble free miles without cutting rotors. Obviously there was no warping to begin with. Why cutting an even surface that works perfectly fine?
08-22-07, 06:54 PM
#15
Circle back to the original poster's question, if driver do not feel vibration, which is what most people care regardless of cause, why cut rotors unnecessarily? All the shops that I encounters charges $ to cut rotor.
I don't see shops recommendate changing oxygen sensors before they die, or changing trannies before they slip. Gekko was able to get >53K of trouble free miles without cutting rotors. Obviously there was no warping to begin with. Why cutting an even surface that works perfectly fine?
I don't see shops recommendate changing oxygen sensors before they die, or changing trannies before they slip. Gekko was able to get >53K of trouble free miles without cutting rotors. Obviously there was no warping to begin with. Why cutting an even surface that works perfectly fine?
The problem is that rarely ever are rotors in good enough shape to not turn.... My most recent brake job was just a pad slap (no turning of rotors), and everything is fine - I did, however, scrub the rotor surface with an aluminum oxide sanding disc... there were no grooves in the rotors however.... now, if there were grooves, then I would have turned them or replaced them... it's subjective - every car and every situation will be different...