The root of all my problems? (97 ES 300)
10-20-04, 09:08 AM
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The root of all my problems?
short version Scottsdale Lexus thinks the problem may be with my catalytic converter or, less likely, the O2 sensor after the cat. I don't know who I should blame -- if anyone? perhaps just myself? -- dealership in Indianapolis that missed this problem twice or the used-car dealership where I bought the car and had an O2 sensor and new cat. installed at.
--
I can't believe I'm continuing to post about this, my apologies for inundating you guys with constant posts about it...
I have a 1997 ES 300. I bought it used in March, 2004, with 119k miles from a local used-car shop in Indianapolis for $4000 cash and a $5400 loan that I successfully paid off over the summer. After I bought it, I took it to the Indianapolis Lexus dealership and had them do a 30-point inspection. They told me that the O2 sensor after the catalytic converter needed to be replaced, that my power steering pump was leaking ($750 estimate), that my valve cover gaskets were leaking ($575 estimate) and that my catalytic converter was plugged ($1800 estimate). Shortly after I bought it, the CHECK ENGINE LIGHT (CEL) came on. I immediately took it back where I bought it and was told the catalytic converter was the problem, along with the front oxygen sensor. I ordered a catalytic converter and oxygen sensor online and had them shipped to the store, where they installed them both on my car.
I think I ordered the catalytic converter from www.catalyticonverters.com -- I need to check my credit card statements. I don't remember where the O2 sensor came from... maybe the used-car dealership. I may have things mixed around; I may have bought the O2 sensor online and had it shipped to the used-car place, and bought the catalytic converter from them -- I don't remember.
I thought I was free from problems. I drove out to Phoenix with my dad. The CEL came on once or twice, briefly, in April and early May. The light went away after a few miles, but I began to be nervous. Different events occurred... my CEL would come on, I would go to Autozone to have it checked and cleared. The TRACTION OFF light would also illuminate if I accelerated rapidly and made a sharp turn, and it would stay on -- but only if the CEL was also already on.
In early August, I went to a Lexus dealership in Indianapolis to have the CEL looked at. They told me it was because of Bank One Sensor One, put in a new sensor, cleared the codes, and charged me $302.88. I was skeptical that it was fixed, so I drove around and, sure enough, it came back on. That same night. I called them and took in the car, The next day, they replaced the "heated sub-sensor," and cleared the code. I was still skeptical, but drove the 1700 miles to Phoenix without a problem. In fact, everything was fine until early September when it blinked on again. ARGH I HATE THIS DAMN LIGHT. Heh.
I went to the Scottsdale Lexus dealership after it came on and they told me they wanted $109, an hour's labor, to check it out. I was like, uh, I'll go see what it means at Autozone for free. They said, Fine, that's understandable. I went to Autozone, and sure enough, it was P0420 - related to catalytic efficiency. I went home the next week and talked to the Indianapolis dealership. I was told that it was ridiculous that Scottsdale wanted to charge me for it, but to go ahead and pay it and I would be reimbursed.
My service manager, a very nice lady, said that she would take care of me and that if I felt things weren't going right, to call Lexus USA and they would set things in order. Fast-forward to today, October 20, when the CEL is back on and I had time to take it in. I agreed to the $109 and left (not with a loaner, because I'm 19 -- ARGH). I came back because I forgot my house keys on my car keyring. While there, I spoke with the shop foreman, Kirby, a very nice fellow and quite knowledgeable. He had several questions for me about the car. He said there was some rust on the exhaust system, something they almost never see out in Phoenix. He thinks that is almost definitely the problem, that it is operating inefficiently. He says it could be the oxygen sensor after the catalytic converter, but that is much less likely. He says that all of the oxygen sensors have been replaced recently and that they're all new and in good shape. Besides the cat. being bad, he suggested that an abrasive cleaner of some sort could have gotten on a sensor, fouling it up. I told him that I once put a bottle of STP Fuel Injector cleaner in, hoping to fix it, but he dismissed that as not able to cause the problems. I told him I used mostly 87 and 89 octane, and he said that wouldn't cause things either. He said that the computer told him I was going 37 mph when the CEL clicked on, and was probably when I was braking, so the exhaust system was releasing lots of exhaust and overwhelming the cat./O2 sensor.
I asked him if it could be the charcoal canister and he said No, that's before the cat. He thinks it's either the cat. or after the cat.
I had the car for a week in Indianapolis in March, then took it out to Arizona... it's been in really warm weather the whole time, so I don't know why this rust developed. Perhaps it was already on the catalytic converter?
I asked him who I should blame: the used-car place for putting bad crap on (he said they installed it all properly, though) or my dealership for not spotting the problem twice before? I mentioned to him and my service manager at Scottsdale that I read about a TSB regarding emissions and a settlement by Toyota/Lexus regarding emissions, good for 14 years or 150,000 miles and asked if that applied, and they both said, Yes.
So... I'm waiting to hear back from Kirby as to what the problem exactly is. Ideally, it will be something that the Toyota settlement completely covers, and I will be reimbursed $109 by my dealership, making this cost-free. Hah. I think I'll have to wait to hear from him before I proceed, but what will be the next step? Call up the used-car place (they really were nice guys and seemed accomodating afterwards)? Call up my dealership in Indianapolis? Call up Lexus USA? I don't have buckets of money lying around, so if this is over $200 or $300, I don't think I'll be able to get it done right now.
--
I can't believe I'm continuing to post about this, my apologies for inundating you guys with constant posts about it...
I have a 1997 ES 300. I bought it used in March, 2004, with 119k miles from a local used-car shop in Indianapolis for $4000 cash and a $5400 loan that I successfully paid off over the summer. After I bought it, I took it to the Indianapolis Lexus dealership and had them do a 30-point inspection. They told me that the O2 sensor after the catalytic converter needed to be replaced, that my power steering pump was leaking ($750 estimate), that my valve cover gaskets were leaking ($575 estimate) and that my catalytic converter was plugged ($1800 estimate). Shortly after I bought it, the CHECK ENGINE LIGHT (CEL) came on. I immediately took it back where I bought it and was told the catalytic converter was the problem, along with the front oxygen sensor. I ordered a catalytic converter and oxygen sensor online and had them shipped to the store, where they installed them both on my car.
I think I ordered the catalytic converter from www.catalyticonverters.com -- I need to check my credit card statements. I don't remember where the O2 sensor came from... maybe the used-car dealership. I may have things mixed around; I may have bought the O2 sensor online and had it shipped to the used-car place, and bought the catalytic converter from them -- I don't remember.
I thought I was free from problems. I drove out to Phoenix with my dad. The CEL came on once or twice, briefly, in April and early May. The light went away after a few miles, but I began to be nervous. Different events occurred... my CEL would come on, I would go to Autozone to have it checked and cleared. The TRACTION OFF light would also illuminate if I accelerated rapidly and made a sharp turn, and it would stay on -- but only if the CEL was also already on.
In early August, I went to a Lexus dealership in Indianapolis to have the CEL looked at. They told me it was because of Bank One Sensor One, put in a new sensor, cleared the codes, and charged me $302.88. I was skeptical that it was fixed, so I drove around and, sure enough, it came back on. That same night. I called them and took in the car, The next day, they replaced the "heated sub-sensor," and cleared the code. I was still skeptical, but drove the 1700 miles to Phoenix without a problem. In fact, everything was fine until early September when it blinked on again. ARGH I HATE THIS DAMN LIGHT. Heh.
I went to the Scottsdale Lexus dealership after it came on and they told me they wanted $109, an hour's labor, to check it out. I was like, uh, I'll go see what it means at Autozone for free. They said, Fine, that's understandable. I went to Autozone, and sure enough, it was P0420 - related to catalytic efficiency. I went home the next week and talked to the Indianapolis dealership. I was told that it was ridiculous that Scottsdale wanted to charge me for it, but to go ahead and pay it and I would be reimbursed.
My service manager, a very nice lady, said that she would take care of me and that if I felt things weren't going right, to call Lexus USA and they would set things in order. Fast-forward to today, October 20, when the CEL is back on and I had time to take it in. I agreed to the $109 and left (not with a loaner, because I'm 19 -- ARGH). I came back because I forgot my house keys on my car keyring. While there, I spoke with the shop foreman, Kirby, a very nice fellow and quite knowledgeable. He had several questions for me about the car. He said there was some rust on the exhaust system, something they almost never see out in Phoenix. He thinks that is almost definitely the problem, that it is operating inefficiently. He says it could be the oxygen sensor after the catalytic converter, but that is much less likely. He says that all of the oxygen sensors have been replaced recently and that they're all new and in good shape. Besides the cat. being bad, he suggested that an abrasive cleaner of some sort could have gotten on a sensor, fouling it up. I told him that I once put a bottle of STP Fuel Injector cleaner in, hoping to fix it, but he dismissed that as not able to cause the problems. I told him I used mostly 87 and 89 octane, and he said that wouldn't cause things either. He said that the computer told him I was going 37 mph when the CEL clicked on, and was probably when I was braking, so the exhaust system was releasing lots of exhaust and overwhelming the cat./O2 sensor.
I asked him if it could be the charcoal canister and he said No, that's before the cat. He thinks it's either the cat. or after the cat.
I had the car for a week in Indianapolis in March, then took it out to Arizona... it's been in really warm weather the whole time, so I don't know why this rust developed. Perhaps it was already on the catalytic converter?
I asked him who I should blame: the used-car place for putting bad crap on (he said they installed it all properly, though) or my dealership for not spotting the problem twice before? I mentioned to him and my service manager at Scottsdale that I read about a TSB regarding emissions and a settlement by Toyota/Lexus regarding emissions, good for 14 years or 150,000 miles and asked if that applied, and they both said, Yes.
So... I'm waiting to hear back from Kirby as to what the problem exactly is. Ideally, it will be something that the Toyota settlement completely covers, and I will be reimbursed $109 by my dealership, making this cost-free. Hah. I think I'll have to wait to hear from him before I proceed, but what will be the next step? Call up the used-car place (they really were nice guys and seemed accomodating afterwards)? Call up my dealership in Indianapolis? Call up Lexus USA? I don't have buckets of money lying around, so if this is over $200 or $300, I don't think I'll be able to get it done right now.
10-21-04, 12:01 PM
#2
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Sounds to me like you bought a 1997 ES300 for a cheap price ($4000) from a
used car dealer (who likely paid only $2500 - $3000 for it) and no written
service history. You said you were only 19, but did it ever occur to you
WHY the original owner was willing to sell a 7 year old luxury car for only
$2500 -$3000 to a used car dealer? The only reasonble answer is that
the original owner knew the car was in heavily worn mechanical condition due
to years of neglected maintenance and possibly from an aggressive, abusive
driving and therefore wasn't worth a respectable price.
Example: It would have taken alot of neglected maintenance and / or abusive
driving for the former owner to plug up your catalytic converter after only
119K miles.
Anyway, getting the check engine light to go off and stay off may
be a long, expensive, complicated task because of the cars' neglected service
history and the fact that aftermarket replacement sensors
and catalytic converter were used to try and correct the problem.
If you're only 19 it may not occur to you yet that the only way
to experience the legendary reliability / durability of a Toyota / Lexus
is to buy one that has received all it's scheduled maintenance on
time using genuine Toyota / Lexus replacement parts. Autozone / Pep
Boys carry only imitation quality parts which compromise the reliability
and durability of Asian cars.
If I was in your shoes, I'd sell your Lexus for a cheap price like the
former owner did and buy a
10-15 year old one owner /middle aged or older owner Corolla that
has extensive preventive maintenance service records.
That way you know you'll be buying reliable transportation. Such
cars are not usually found on dealer lots, but in private party
ads in the newspaper.
used car dealer (who likely paid only $2500 - $3000 for it) and no written
service history. You said you were only 19, but did it ever occur to you
WHY the original owner was willing to sell a 7 year old luxury car for only
$2500 -$3000 to a used car dealer? The only reasonble answer is that
the original owner knew the car was in heavily worn mechanical condition due
to years of neglected maintenance and possibly from an aggressive, abusive
driving and therefore wasn't worth a respectable price.
Example: It would have taken alot of neglected maintenance and / or abusive
driving for the former owner to plug up your catalytic converter after only
119K miles.
Anyway, getting the check engine light to go off and stay off may
be a long, expensive, complicated task because of the cars' neglected service
history and the fact that aftermarket replacement sensors
and catalytic converter were used to try and correct the problem.
If you're only 19 it may not occur to you yet that the only way
to experience the legendary reliability / durability of a Toyota / Lexus
is to buy one that has received all it's scheduled maintenance on
time using genuine Toyota / Lexus replacement parts. Autozone / Pep
Boys carry only imitation quality parts which compromise the reliability
and durability of Asian cars.
If I was in your shoes, I'd sell your Lexus for a cheap price like the
former owner did and buy a
10-15 year old one owner /middle aged or older owner Corolla that
has extensive preventive maintenance service records.
That way you know you'll be buying reliable transportation. Such
cars are not usually found on dealer lots, but in private party
ads in the newspaper.
10-21-04, 01:45 PM
#4
Lexus Test Driver
Yeah, Zach man you are doing a good job keeping up with the maintenance, holding the mechanics to their promises, and not always just doing what the Lexus dealer tells you. I thing everything you have done has been the right thing to do given the circumstances and I can understand your frustration with the check engine light.
The $100 to pull the codes is stupid, but they are supposed to apply that towars the repair if you choose to have it done at the dealer. I stopped going to the dealer; I hate that sort of entrapment. Sometimes you have no choice if you want a quality repair.
I bet the exhaust system might have been replaced before; do you know if your car has ever been rear-ended?
Look at the exhaust system yourself and see where the rust is, don't always take the dealership at their word. Is it before the cat? after the cat? on the cat? What else do you see? Post up a pic or two if you can.
Let us know.
Bodyshops don't always use stainless steel or any kind of rust repelling agents when they replace an exhaust. I have a Civic with a 2 year old muffler that is COVERED in rust for this reason.
The $100 to pull the codes is stupid, but they are supposed to apply that towars the repair if you choose to have it done at the dealer. I stopped going to the dealer; I hate that sort of entrapment. Sometimes you have no choice if you want a quality repair.
I bet the exhaust system might have been replaced before; do you know if your car has ever been rear-ended?
Look at the exhaust system yourself and see where the rust is, don't always take the dealership at their word. Is it before the cat? after the cat? on the cat? What else do you see? Post up a pic or two if you can.
Let us know.
Bodyshops don't always use stainless steel or any kind of rust repelling agents when they replace an exhaust. I have a Civic with a 2 year old muffler that is COVERED in rust for this reason.
10-21-04, 05:00 PM
#5
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Thanks for the posts guys.
Pianoman: I don't know if the car has ever been in a rear-end accident. Carfax came up clean, but I know the limitations that service has. When I was at the Scottsdale dealership, I spoke with the shop foreman for fifteen or twenty minutes. The car was up on the jacks and we looked at the entire underbody. It was in great shape; a testament, he said, to the thorough rust prevention coatings that Lexus did. He pointed out the catalytic converter and said it looked a bit old... I told him I'd driven 15,000 miles since getting it and he said, Oh, that explains it. The rust was after the catalytic converter, before the muffler... just a tiny bit and he said it was because rust proofing chemicals can't operate on that piece of the exhaust because it gets so hot.
He also pointed out the valve rear gasket leaking and I saw it... bit of sludge dripping off it. There hasn't been anything on my driveway, so I think it's alright... for now. I asked him about the engine sludge problem and he said that if I was at 135,000 miles, I was well past the danger zone for that and didn't need to worry about it.
I'm going to continue to drive the car, obviously -- I need an oil change in 400 miles or so. I'm going to drive a little more conservatively; even though I'm a 19-year-old white male, I do drive pretty defensively and my laidback personality enables me to take things a little slower than most. But the CEL will have to stay on, maybe I'll just have it reset when I have an important passenger
Pianoman: I don't know if the car has ever been in a rear-end accident. Carfax came up clean, but I know the limitations that service has. When I was at the Scottsdale dealership, I spoke with the shop foreman for fifteen or twenty minutes. The car was up on the jacks and we looked at the entire underbody. It was in great shape; a testament, he said, to the thorough rust prevention coatings that Lexus did. He pointed out the catalytic converter and said it looked a bit old... I told him I'd driven 15,000 miles since getting it and he said, Oh, that explains it. The rust was after the catalytic converter, before the muffler... just a tiny bit and he said it was because rust proofing chemicals can't operate on that piece of the exhaust because it gets so hot.
He also pointed out the valve rear gasket leaking and I saw it... bit of sludge dripping off it. There hasn't been anything on my driveway, so I think it's alright... for now. I asked him about the engine sludge problem and he said that if I was at 135,000 miles, I was well past the danger zone for that and didn't need to worry about it.
I'm going to continue to drive the car, obviously -- I need an oil change in 400 miles or so. I'm going to drive a little more conservatively; even though I'm a 19-year-old white male, I do drive pretty defensively and my laidback personality enables me to take things a little slower than most. But the CEL will have to stay on, maybe I'll just have it reset when I have an important passenger
10-22-04, 09:03 AM
#6
Lexus Test Driver
Well I'm glad to hear that you do not have a major rust problem with the exhaust.
If rust in that area is commonplace I do not see why that would trigger the CEL, but I suppose it is possible.
Perhaps it is that 02 sensor after the cat that you mentioned. Too bad the only thing you can really do is keep replacing emission components until the problem goes away.
What is the valve rear gasket? Is that the same as the rear main seal? I've had that leaking for three or four years now. Getting it fixed soon, though. Gotta make the $$$
If rust in that area is commonplace I do not see why that would trigger the CEL, but I suppose it is possible.
Perhaps it is that 02 sensor after the cat that you mentioned. Too bad the only thing you can really do is keep replacing emission components until the problem goes away.
What is the valve rear gasket? Is that the same as the rear main seal? I've had that leaking for three or four years now. Getting it fixed soon, though. Gotta make the $$$
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