Got to see and sit in a 2016 LX today...
12-10-15, 03:00 PM
#16
Racer
did you have a 15 or 16 LX, because I really think the 8 speed cant seem to find the right gear when you hit the gas from a rolling position. My first gx had that too, but 2nd gx is a heck of lot more responsive.
12-10-15, 04:03 PM
#17
i have always said the lexus 8 speed is too conservative and during pick up it has trouble looking for gears. that was the case in my ls460, a problem even in isf, and even now with my gs (8 speed) i can feel the problem over the 6pd version. so that's why i said i wouldn't be surprised if it again becomes a problem for the lx. my hope was that the lager displacement / torque of the 570 engine would help but maybe that's not the case
i reviewed the 2014 gx and 2015 lx i believe. i have yet to review the 16 lx
i reviewed the 2014 gx and 2015 lx i believe. i have yet to review the 16 lx
12-10-15, 09:39 PM
#18
Racer
Ashamed, lexus screwed up the tranny in this. Engine has absolutely no power it feels when hitting the gas when going 30-40 mph. A definite step back from the 6 speed in the GX.
Likely a deal breaker for me. I will test it again when I get closer to making a decision.
Likely a deal breaker for me. I will test it again when I get closer to making a decision.
Last edited by T4Fun; 12-10-15 at 09:42 PM.
12-11-15, 08:19 AM
#19
Interestingly enough on the diesel LX, which NA does not get, Lexus opted to leave the 6-speed tranny unchanged.
12-11-15, 08:12 PM
#20
I am eager to drive this thing. I am currently in a 2016 RX350 loaner (more on this later) and in looking at the interior have kept on wondering about implementation of the new Lexus themes in the LX.
In terms of the transmission, in principle, there is no reason an 8-speed should drive poorly relative to a 6-speed, never mind offer "less power". In fact, in theory (yet again!), having additional gears available should enable the engine to spend more time in its sweet spot (from a torque perspective). Thus, it should pull more steadily and linearly.
Of course, this assumes that the transmission can mechanically respond/shift crisply and quickly enough and that the powertrain calibration that ultimately shifts it is appropriate in responding to throttle position and many other conditions. This is where I remember having hiccups with the LS460 (my only 8-speed-equipped vehicle ever). The car would hesitate, get confused when downshifting, there were delays, etc. While this was much improved with a calibration update, it never disappeared. Was it the fault of the 8-speed box (vis-a-vis a hypothetical 6-speed on the LS460)? Well, I guess so, to the extent that the hardware could not be made to behave as needed.
On the LX, the 5.7 is obviously not a supercharged powerhouse a la Range Rover. However, it does put out plenty of torque, and despite the weight difference, it pulls much harder than the GX460 - I remember my test drive like it was yesterday. If the 2016 LX is feeling sluggish as T4Fun experienced (especially if this also happens in Sport S+ mode), I see a calibration update in the near future. Lexus releases these all the time - sometimes published in TSIBs and other times not, and if this initial 8-speed version is behaving as you describe enough to be noticeable by most drivers, I can't imagine they won't address it.
I can't argue against the information presented here (and in other forums/threads) about the 8-speed vs. 6-speed GS350, as I have no practical basis for it. I've driven 3rd and 4th Gen GS350s (6-speed) and would love to be able to compare to 8-speed cars at some point. However, going back to my RX loaner, this baby has an 8-speed transmission. Between this thread and some of the GS threads, this thought has been very much on my mind. I must say that, thus far, I have been very impressed with the power delivery, linearity and smoothness, both in absolute terms AND relative to its 6-speed predecessor. This feels, overall, like a better powertrain. Having said this, the one thing I would like to test more thoroughly is downshifting behavior. In the few opportunities I've had thus far, it has seemed to find the gear it needs and it goes, instead of hunting or going from 6 to 3 via 5 and 4 (if you will), but I haven't tested it enough to ascertain this.
It will be interesting to see where this goes with Lexus. I have definitely not given up on 8-speeds and am still a fan, but I can see that there is still work to be done and can't dismiss all these observations across multiple vehicles. The new RX, thus far, does seem to be an encouraging data point... and more on that later.
In terms of the transmission, in principle, there is no reason an 8-speed should drive poorly relative to a 6-speed, never mind offer "less power". In fact, in theory (yet again!), having additional gears available should enable the engine to spend more time in its sweet spot (from a torque perspective). Thus, it should pull more steadily and linearly.
Of course, this assumes that the transmission can mechanically respond/shift crisply and quickly enough and that the powertrain calibration that ultimately shifts it is appropriate in responding to throttle position and many other conditions. This is where I remember having hiccups with the LS460 (my only 8-speed-equipped vehicle ever). The car would hesitate, get confused when downshifting, there were delays, etc. While this was much improved with a calibration update, it never disappeared. Was it the fault of the 8-speed box (vis-a-vis a hypothetical 6-speed on the LS460)? Well, I guess so, to the extent that the hardware could not be made to behave as needed.
On the LX, the 5.7 is obviously not a supercharged powerhouse a la Range Rover. However, it does put out plenty of torque, and despite the weight difference, it pulls much harder than the GX460 - I remember my test drive like it was yesterday. If the 2016 LX is feeling sluggish as T4Fun experienced (especially if this also happens in Sport S+ mode), I see a calibration update in the near future. Lexus releases these all the time - sometimes published in TSIBs and other times not, and if this initial 8-speed version is behaving as you describe enough to be noticeable by most drivers, I can't imagine they won't address it.
I can't argue against the information presented here (and in other forums/threads) about the 8-speed vs. 6-speed GS350, as I have no practical basis for it. I've driven 3rd and 4th Gen GS350s (6-speed) and would love to be able to compare to 8-speed cars at some point. However, going back to my RX loaner, this baby has an 8-speed transmission. Between this thread and some of the GS threads, this thought has been very much on my mind. I must say that, thus far, I have been very impressed with the power delivery, linearity and smoothness, both in absolute terms AND relative to its 6-speed predecessor. This feels, overall, like a better powertrain. Having said this, the one thing I would like to test more thoroughly is downshifting behavior. In the few opportunities I've had thus far, it has seemed to find the gear it needs and it goes, instead of hunting or going from 6 to 3 via 5 and 4 (if you will), but I haven't tested it enough to ascertain this.
It will be interesting to see where this goes with Lexus. I have definitely not given up on 8-speeds and am still a fan, but I can see that there is still work to be done and can't dismiss all these observations across multiple vehicles. The new RX, thus far, does seem to be an encouraging data point... and more on that later.
Last edited by caha14; 12-11-15 at 08:24 PM.
12-11-15, 10:07 PM
#21
Racer
im wondering does lexus use same 8 speed tranny in all models with variability to fit the engine and torque and drivetrain.
does it use one similar to RCF? seems rcf tranny is a excellent.
"
Lexus RC F Engine and Transmission
The V8 engine in the RC F makes 467 horsepower, but I have driven cars with more power and equally good handling on this track in the past. The new Corvette Stingray and Mercedes SLS AMG come to mind. What the Lexus can do better than any track-worthy car I have ever driven is make sure that the driver gets the horsepower exactly when needed. The transmission gets all the credit.
The system that Lexus uses is an 8- speed sport direct shift transmission with a torque converter that fully locks in gears 2 through 8 when driven in manual mode. Interestingly, the real fun is not in manual mode, but in automatic mode. In this mode, Lexus’s transmission uses AI-SHIFT control. This is an artificial intelligence shifting mode. The transmission is fed information from the G sensor in the vehicle. It knows that when you brake you will want to have the transmission downshift. It also can tell from how firmly you are braking how quickly that downshift should take place and how many gears to drop down."
does it use one similar to RCF? seems rcf tranny is a excellent.
"
Lexus RC F Engine and Transmission
The V8 engine in the RC F makes 467 horsepower, but I have driven cars with more power and equally good handling on this track in the past. The new Corvette Stingray and Mercedes SLS AMG come to mind. What the Lexus can do better than any track-worthy car I have ever driven is make sure that the driver gets the horsepower exactly when needed. The transmission gets all the credit.
The system that Lexus uses is an 8- speed sport direct shift transmission with a torque converter that fully locks in gears 2 through 8 when driven in manual mode. Interestingly, the real fun is not in manual mode, but in automatic mode. In this mode, Lexus’s transmission uses AI-SHIFT control. This is an artificial intelligence shifting mode. The transmission is fed information from the G sensor in the vehicle. It knows that when you brake you will want to have the transmission downshift. It also can tell from how firmly you are braking how quickly that downshift should take place and how many gears to drop down."
12-12-15, 06:45 AM
#22
im wondering does lexus use same 8 speed tranny in all models with variability to fit the engine and torque and drivetrain.
does it use one similar to RCF? seems rcf tranny is a excellent.
"
Lexus RC F Engine and Transmission
The V8 engine in the RC F makes 467 horsepower, but I have driven cars with more power and equally good handling on this track in the past. The new Corvette Stingray and Mercedes SLS AMG come to mind. What the Lexus can do better than any track-worthy car I have ever driven is make sure that the driver gets the horsepower exactly when needed. The transmission gets all the credit.
The system that Lexus uses is an 8- speed sport direct shift transmission with a torque converter that fully locks in gears 2 through 8 when driven in manual mode. Interestingly, the real fun is not in manual mode, but in automatic mode. In this mode, Lexus’s transmission uses AI-SHIFT control. This is an artificial intelligence shifting mode. The transmission is fed information from the G sensor in the vehicle. It knows that when you brake you will want to have the transmission downshift. It also can tell from how firmly you are braking how quickly that downshift should take place and how many gears to drop down."
does it use one similar to RCF? seems rcf tranny is a excellent.
"
Lexus RC F Engine and Transmission
The V8 engine in the RC F makes 467 horsepower, but I have driven cars with more power and equally good handling on this track in the past. The new Corvette Stingray and Mercedes SLS AMG come to mind. What the Lexus can do better than any track-worthy car I have ever driven is make sure that the driver gets the horsepower exactly when needed. The transmission gets all the credit.
The system that Lexus uses is an 8- speed sport direct shift transmission with a torque converter that fully locks in gears 2 through 8 when driven in manual mode. Interestingly, the real fun is not in manual mode, but in automatic mode. In this mode, Lexus’s transmission uses AI-SHIFT control. This is an artificial intelligence shifting mode. The transmission is fed information from the G sensor in the vehicle. It knows that when you brake you will want to have the transmission downshift. It also can tell from how firmly you are braking how quickly that downshift should take place and how many gears to drop down."
I imagine there may be some common architectural elements across RWD-based car platforms (GS, RC, LS, IS), but in the case of the RC-F, I'd expect some enhancements, just based on your post.
Of course, much of what you quote above is all about the "brains" operating the transmission, but these controls need the hardware to respond accordingly, handle the torque, etc. (as you pointed out), so I would expect RC-F transmission to be pretty unique. As I understand it, it responds almost as crisply as a dual-clutch tranny without being so.
LS and GS 8-speeds are more likely to be similar. LX I would expect to be over-engineered.
RX 8-speed is a transaxle, since it's a FWD-based vehicle, so not part of this (even though I keep bringing it up, LOL).
12-12-15, 07:08 AM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
The issue is the 8 speed coupled with logic that maximizes fuel economy. The RC-F is not tuned that way.
I've noticed an issue in ALL transmissions since the era of the new CAFE standards. Used to be any automatic trans shifted pretty well, but the 5 speed in my 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee was terrible, really tall gear ratios to maximize economy. I had the same car in with the new 8 speed in 2014, and it was better but still not great. The additional gears helps them not have to have such tall ratios but still, the shift logic doesn't want to downshift because downshifting uses fuel.
I think in a lot of ways were just going to have to get used to this.
I've noticed an issue in ALL transmissions since the era of the new CAFE standards. Used to be any automatic trans shifted pretty well, but the 5 speed in my 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee was terrible, really tall gear ratios to maximize economy. I had the same car in with the new 8 speed in 2014, and it was better but still not great. The additional gears helps them not have to have such tall ratios but still, the shift logic doesn't want to downshift because downshifting uses fuel.
I think in a lot of ways were just going to have to get used to this.
12-12-15, 07:16 AM
#24
Dropped my LS460 off at the dealer for the 10k service and they had a nice new LX sitting out front. Car was nebula grey (same as my LS) with the cabernet interior. My only experience with cabernet is in the 4GS F Sport but it transitions to luxury very well...its very rich, unusual...like it.
I was never a huge fan of the LX, I always figured if I were going to spend that kind of money on an SUV I'd get a Range Rover, but I gotta say...I loved what they have done with the 2016 refresh. The new front end looks great in person, at least on this color, all the trim changes are excellent as well, this one had the 21" wheels, loved them. Inside quality is excellent, seat materials, dash materials, everywhere are very good...love the new layout inside, the nav screen doesn't look tacked on as it does in the new RX...very nice.
If I were leasing, I would still struggle with this vs a Range Rover, to buy though this would be my first choice. I briefly considered doing a big SUV this time and drove the Range Rover, Escalade, LX, MB GL, etc....had this been out I might have gotten this.
I'll try and see if I can take it for a spin when I go back to get mine tomorrow. Enjoy them guys!
I was never a huge fan of the LX, I always figured if I were going to spend that kind of money on an SUV I'd get a Range Rover, but I gotta say...I loved what they have done with the 2016 refresh. The new front end looks great in person, at least on this color, all the trim changes are excellent as well, this one had the 21" wheels, loved them. Inside quality is excellent, seat materials, dash materials, everywhere are very good...love the new layout inside, the nav screen doesn't look tacked on as it does in the new RX...very nice.
If I were leasing, I would still struggle with this vs a Range Rover, to buy though this would be my first choice. I briefly considered doing a big SUV this time and drove the Range Rover, Escalade, LX, MB GL, etc....had this been out I might have gotten this.
I'll try and see if I can take it for a spin when I go back to get mine tomorrow. Enjoy them guys!
This is encouraging, especially your observations on layout, materials and overall fit/quality. It also confirms much of what I've gathered from photos and the "themes" I alluded to earlier that I've picked up on from the interior of the new RX I'm currently driving - a different animal, for sure, but between the photos of the LX and the cues from the RX, I get a general sense of where they went. Personally, I've always appreciated the cabernet color and can't wait to see it in person on the LX.
Until the 2016 LX was released, there were many reasons I would not consider replacing our 2010 with a new one. With this update, they've addressed the majority of them (related to technology and features), except for one: the drivetrain. Yes, the 8-speed is a change (and the jury is evidently out on that), but the engine and engine management ares way overdue for an update, IMHO.
In the 1990s, as a graduate student in mechanical engineering, I did some work on hybrid technologies and other fuel-saving measures, most prominently shutdown-at-idle and cylinder-disabling (as we used to call it) - now marketed as cylinder deactivation, variable cylinder management (VCM), etc. This wasn't all new, except when the technology originally emerged (think Cadillac 8-6-4 - circa 1981, I believe), adequate control systems just were not available. This has changed, and as you know, many manufacturers are offering some version of it, especially on trucks, and the execution is pretty satisfactory.
Where am I going with this? If anyone can pull this off well, it would be Toyota. It is inexplicable to me that, to this day, even with the 8-speed, the LX produces such crappy gas mileage.
Last summer, I rented a new Escalade, which I drove for 1,000 miles. I had actually written a detailed review/comparison to post on here, when CL crashed, and I lost it (the review, not my composure). It was too long to rewrite, but my point - at the time - revolved around the outdated technology and lack of features on the LX (now mostly resolved) and the powertrain.
Escalade produces more torque and power (out of an even bigger V-8) and is much, much more fuel efficient, courtesy of an 8-speed transmission (check!), direct injection and VCM. It was amazing to be cruising on that beast at 90mph with the 6.2L humming along quietly and smoothly at 2,000-rpm while firing on 4 cylinders. No, overall, Escalade doesn't ride quite as nicely as LX (plenty of reviews out there on that), and the looks are questionable (from certain angles, at least), but this post is not meant to compare the two side-by-side. I am only using it as an example of a full size SUV with a nice powerplant that doesn't average 13 or 14 mpg. This is the one thing I wish they had also tweaked (and in fact, before the release, a few articles referenced a 'slightly-revised 5.7-liter', which I was disappointed turned out to not be so).
12-14-15, 10:11 AM
#25
interesting to watch it. The demographics of who is buying the LX and what for has changed a lot over the 20+ years I'm watching it. And the vehicle changed to follow suit.
12-14-15, 12:26 PM
#26
everything is as good as the programming.
the isf / rcf have the same 8 speed as the 8 speed in the ls460 but i guarantee you that they feel extremely different in real life. the ls460 is much slower in responding and more effort in order to kick down the gears.
in theory more gears will allow the car to stay in sweet spots longer but again it comes down to programming. my feeling is on lexus cars, they tend to upshift you as soon as possible to maximize the fuel economy (well in eco mode it's even more so), but what that means is it's not really in that sweet of a spot anymore. at least to my driving habit (more aggressive side), it becomes more gear hunting than ever. car doesn't feel as punchy in some sense (my gs350 and ls460).
now with isf and rcf it's definitely better because of the programming, and of course if i put the car in full locking tq converter mode then it's a whole new animal (it shifts hard). i am not sure if that's available in the lx570 at all. i doubt, i am not sure if it's even on the ls460?
it's still speculation on my side, i haven't driven the new lx570 to compare my experience
the isf / rcf have the same 8 speed as the 8 speed in the ls460 but i guarantee you that they feel extremely different in real life. the ls460 is much slower in responding and more effort in order to kick down the gears.
in theory more gears will allow the car to stay in sweet spots longer but again it comes down to programming. my feeling is on lexus cars, they tend to upshift you as soon as possible to maximize the fuel economy (well in eco mode it's even more so), but what that means is it's not really in that sweet of a spot anymore. at least to my driving habit (more aggressive side), it becomes more gear hunting than ever. car doesn't feel as punchy in some sense (my gs350 and ls460).
now with isf and rcf it's definitely better because of the programming, and of course if i put the car in full locking tq converter mode then it's a whole new animal (it shifts hard). i am not sure if that's available in the lx570 at all. i doubt, i am not sure if it's even on the ls460?
it's still speculation on my side, i haven't driven the new lx570 to compare my experience
12-14-15, 03:26 PM
#27
Racer
I test drove another 16 LX again at different dealership.
This time, i felt the tranny switch gears more smoothly, and no gear hunting. However i also didnt go up down hills
like the first time around.
Ride definitely feels firmer than a GX, but again I feel its underpowered. The gas pedal is very firm as is the steering and brakes. Have to push gas down more to have same response in other vehicles. Great truck feeling still.
After sitting in it twice now, overall, not really that impressed with all the high tech features that incidently are even available and BETTER on my wifes subaru legacy.
All around camera is nice. Side mirrors can be programmed to fold in on parking.
Also there is no multi terrain select with inclinometer. Dissappointed what lexus did with turn signals and leaving off the side door moldings.
Not dissing it at all, its a nice suv and I may decide to get it later next year, but definitely wouldnt pay what its going for right now.
This time, i felt the tranny switch gears more smoothly, and no gear hunting. However i also didnt go up down hills
like the first time around.
Ride definitely feels firmer than a GX, but again I feel its underpowered. The gas pedal is very firm as is the steering and brakes. Have to push gas down more to have same response in other vehicles. Great truck feeling still.
After sitting in it twice now, overall, not really that impressed with all the high tech features that incidently are even available and BETTER on my wifes subaru legacy.
All around camera is nice. Side mirrors can be programmed to fold in on parking.
Also there is no multi terrain select with inclinometer. Dissappointed what lexus did with turn signals and leaving off the side door moldings.
Not dissing it at all, its a nice suv and I may decide to get it later next year, but definitely wouldnt pay what its going for right now.
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