Devh

What NickTee said but I will expand on my response.
The V12 is a better motor design not because of less load as that is irrelevant. It's better because it's an inherently balanced engine with the fewest vibrations which ultimately leads to a motor that is least likely to grenade overtime because vibrations are killers for engines.
But that's not true anymore because engine designs are so much better that it's not as important.
In the past and even today V12s are used in commercial applications from planes, trains, trucks and tanks. A in-line six is one hell of a motor for durability and when you add another bank it becomes even more durable adding to the rigidity and further lessening vibrations.
If a manufacturer makes a bad V12 i'm sure they are equally capable of making a bad V-8 but let's be honest there are not enough V12 on the market to even form an opinion.

tbilisi79

I started dreaming of v12s when the 88 BMW 750il came out.
Then the w140 s600. I owned a s500 of that model, which was no slouch, but I drove my friends sl600 94 around the same time and acceleration felt phenomenal.

I'd kill for s65. But I don't play lotto so chances of that are slim. Worst part is it's not the purchase price of a used v12 car it's the proper repairs and maintenance that follows after .

Today's v12 s all have two turbos attached to them. In a long term I don't see them as high mileage motors. These cars are built for people who can afford them new. Anyone buying them after 100k miles either doesn't have kids or doesn't plan to have any in the future.

NickTee

http://www.carmax.com/enus/view-car/...results%20page

Get that with a Carmax warranty.

DiggerJim

Eeek! That pleated leather looks so 1980s grandparent's sofa.

BTW, what does Carmax charge for that optional Maxcare warranty?

NickTee

You'll probably hate modern luxury cars, then. And the cost depends on the car. On a car like that, it'd be worth it

Luxofreak

Thanks for all the replies, didn't think this would grow to 2 pages

A V12 or W12 is a bucket list thing. I drove a 2011 CL65 and even though the car is heavy, it's a freight train with what seems to be endless torque and acceleration.

I didn't drive a W12 Bentley, but I turned its engine on, and I could feel it was a completely different kind of car and engine.

I didn't get the chance yet to see/drive a W12 Audi A-8L -- maybe some day.

I can't go into the exotic realm of 12 cylinder engines like Aston Martin, Lambo or Ferrari (yet) but those could be contenders, hopefully before I get too old to afford or enjoy them. (I usually save and buy, I always try to avoid financing cars). A V12 Vantage, 6 speed manual is one hell of a car.

And I believe the most recent 12 cylinder engines (V12 or W12) do have better technology than the old V12 Jags, Mercs, etc...

Lexus should offer one.

Devh

Toyota has a V12 engine and car.
Toyota has also made the clumsy V12 obsolete.

Nospinzone

It was a bucket list thing for me. Since I was a kid I wanted a Ferrari and I wanted a V12. I finally got it almost two years ago. Whether It's an Audi, Bentley or whatever go for it as soon as you can.

Nothing drives (incredibly the weight distribution on the 612 is 46 front/54 rear) or sounds like a V12. The Ferrari V12 is probably as close to bulletproof as you can expect to get. Unfortunately mine is the last to have a belt, so that's a $2200 job every five years. As they say, it's not whether you can afford to buy the car, it's whether you can afford to maintain the car!

My V12 is naturally aspirated and I think any V12 you can get that is would be more reliable than a twin turbo. However, I agree with you that the modern V12's have better technology, so maybe even the twin turbos will be OK, but it just seems there is more to go wrong.

As an aside, last summer I was at a local informal car show run by a rotary club to raise a little money. It's a small time event, but it's fun, everyone is nice and there's great car talk.

As I was talking to some people next to my 612 a boy about 10 years old was really interested in it. So I opened the door and told him to sit in the driver's seat. His face lit up and he sat there for only a minute and then got out. His father then said to him, "well that's the only time you'll sit in a Ferrari". I was so taken aback that I just said something like "you never know, he may have one some day."

I'm sure the father probably didn't realize the message he was sending to his son. The disappointing part was that neither he nor I used that opportunity to say something like see what hard work or education will get you, or something encouraging along those lines to his son.

1WILLY1

iTrader: (9)

Sadly, in many cases, it is family that causes the most harm and put the most limitations on people lives.

Kids by nature are usually big dreamers, and that is usually taken away from them by those closest.

Like when I was 18 or 19 and wanted to buy my dream car at the time, a 5.0 mustang, which an older friend was selling for less then 2k. I was talked out of it the people around me.

I remember how happy I was just to get a 17 year old SC400, to which I was warned of how much trouble a car like that would be, and how I'd better sell it before it breaks down etc....

Just minor examples but a very common theme when it comes to family.

I still want a 12cylinder one day , preferably a Bentley ...it's something I think about alot actually.

Toys4RJill

I have never really understood the reliability argument for high end cars and really high end cars.

A V12 of W12 is for the super rich, most super rich have a number of cars and likely lease their cars and they probably have other cars.

Most of these V12 or W12 likely never get out of the warranty mileage.

NickTee

The only thing clumsy about the V12 is that Toyota couldn't do much with one.

Devh

There was no point to it from a design perspective and AWD complexity.
Torque fill has proven to be much more advantages for a verity of reasons and that is why super car manufactures are following Lexus lead. Lexus made a very nice V12 for it's time but in order to compete they will have to spend more then the car is worth in aluminum up front to get the weight distribution right.
With torque fill from the hybrid system you get to have your cake and eat it too with all of the advantages and none of the disadvantages except for those that buy into the more cylinders equals more prestige.

Ascari_2

I have to disagree to some extent here because we are now talking apples and pears. Yes hybrid systems produce some amazing torque with practically zero noise and vibration. But (this is am assumption based on my own judgment) the appeal of a 12-cylinder internal combustion engine isn't just torque, and lack of noise and vibration. For a luxury car, it's the idea of exclusivity (having an engine that is rare by all standards) combined with the fact that such a complicated engine with so many moving parts is able to act as this powerhouse for wafting you around like you're on a cloud. Think a v12 Benz vs a Tesla. Both can perform on par with one another, but Tesla's engine has nowhere near the appeal of a v12. For sport cars, the idea of smoothness coming from such a large engine is replaced with sound and feel associated with raw but precise power delivery. Think back to the XJ220 and all those stories of customer canceling their orders once they found out that the car was going to have 6 less cylinders. 12-cylinder engines have always been found in the cream-of-the-crop cars, and I believe there is a good reason for that.

Sure you can replicate the levels of performance with alternative technology and that new technology will probably be better, but it won't be the same. By the same token one can call a 6-spd gearbox clumsy when compared to a DSG or one can call the old v12 F1 cars clumsy compared to the new Formula E cars, but many would argue with that.

tbilisi79

Great argument there.
But let me chime in. These are not the times of v12 Packards and v16 Cadillacs, when people took pride in their expensive machines.
Today's v12 cars are being driven by drivers mostly. I'm sure most owners don't know or care what's under the hood. They buy most expensive cars to write off taxes.
For example. There is a fleet of s600 Mercedes's in front of my job, midtown Manhattan. I'd say 4-5 at any given time, sitting in any weather idling away . Cars are for driving clients, CEOs and all sorts of high end people of some company that is in that building. They could have been s400, s550. But no. V12 cara to chauffeur around big wigs.
And that happens all over the place .

I'm sure there are some gear heads out there that will drop their jaw when they see an s65 drive by. But most people who can afford them get them for other reasons than prestige, cause at the end of the day they don't even know what's under the hood.

I'm talking mostly about s600, BMW 760 and Audi a12.

I'm sure the sports car v12 market is a bit different .

Devh

The V12 is a great motor however it's advantages as far as power delivery is not that advantageous with current technology anymore considering you can now get past the clumsy restrictions the V12 imposes . There seems to be a contradiction here which is one of nostalgia and prestige of old vs newer technology.
An electric motor is nearly vibration free and it's always on the boil with instantaneous torque and virtually no noise compared to a V12. It is clearly superior and it's what the V12s try to simulate but it's still far from it.
I like the manual feel of a 6 speed and clutch but clearly a sequential gear box is far superior except for maybe reliability. The reason why V12 are no longer used in formula one racing is political to keep it competitive but it's configuration of being mid engine doesn't impose a penalty compared to front engine V12s that do.
An Inline 6 is smoother then a V8 and also has better quality of power delivery and that is because it has similar characteristics to a V12. But as you can see manufactures have moved away from inline 6 motors just because of the clumsiness.