caha14

Good lord, we're not gonna restart the reliability discussion (same stuff, all over again) here, are we?!

Sad to read the OP's story. As much as I can empathize, it is not the car's fault, though.

Doublebase

Google 07 Lexus LS 460 reliability. There you'll find hundreds upon hundreds of extremely positive reviews of reliability from LS owners...car gurus, cars.com, consumer reports, Kelly blue book..on and on and on. You're welcome.

Anything I can do to help. I'll also keep you updated on the reliability of my own car...this week was an off week, I only drove 380 miles, but there's still Sunday. But still no problems. I don't foresee any problems for tomorrow - I plan on taking it food shopping, going for a ride to the beach/lunch/ice cream...I figure I'll put a solid 100 miles on it. Then I'll be gearing up for a 600 mile work week. Hope I can assist you in your "goal", or was it a quest? I can't remember, I'm too exhausted from reading all those positive reviews about reliability on the Internet...hey isn't that your job?

Pamperme

(see bold) I agree that one would have to go back before 2005. And that is exactly what I have done in basing my position. I am looking all the way back to 1989 and onward. I have an electronic collection of Comsumer Reports going back that far and I study them intensely. As I've said before, I'd love to be proven wrong about my "LEAST reliable" position regarding the LS460 but unfortunately, given the data before me I don't see that happening.

Chuckwagon

Looking at consumer reports for the last 26 years to gauge reliability of recent vs previous models of any car is meaningless. Consumer reports doesn't track absolute reliability. They track relative reliability, vs the average for a model year. So while a car might get a solid red circle for 1990, and its 2012 counterpart only gets a half red circle, that doesn't mean the 1990 model was more reliable than the 2012 model. It only means the 1990 model was more reliable than the average of models for 1990, more so than the 2012 model was in comparison to the average in 2012. But if the average overall in 2012 was higher than in 1990, you could have a 2012 model that is more reliable than its 1990 counterpart, but doesn't get as high a rating from consumer reports.

To compare reliability of a given model in one year to any model from more than a few years before is problematic. What metric will you use? Number of reported repairs per model year? That only works if the same number of vehicles were sold in each year being compared, and then only if the demographics of the buyers is quite similar. You'd also have to have very accurate reporting of repair work, which would get skewed by DIY repairs that are probably more likely as a model ages and knowledge about it accumulates. Also, how would you account for the greater complexity and larger feature set of the newer vehicles vs their older counterparts? If there were 10,000 items that could require repair in 1990, but there are 20,000 items in the 2015 model (exaggerated numbers to make the point) then your metric would have to account for the difference, as more possible failing parts means it's more likely that some repair will be needed. And once again, accurate reporting of all repairs would likely be impossible.

Then there are the other variables to consider. How would you account for the varying driving styles and circumstances, ages and abilities, environmental factors, skills and knowledge for a model year of the repairing mechanics and the learning curve they must go through (as poor repairs will lead to more repairs.) Price when purchased affects the demographics of the buyers, and therefore affects perceived reliability, as varying price likely affects varying expectations and level of annoyance with repairs. And on and on.

I just don't think there is any meaningful way to compare absolute reliability over so many years. And no metric could be reasonably sure to account for all the variables.

The bottom line is, are you happy with your car? If not, it doesn't matter how happy I am with mine. If you are, then once again, how unhappy I am won't really matter either. And efforts to either convince people they should be happy or unhappy, based on one's own experience and not theirs, are misdirected. I will decide if my car's reliability meets my expectations, and my future purchases will reflect it.

ShamanLS

I would like to add that any car's reliability is directly affected by how they're treated and maintained by their owners.

It's impossible that'll the ls460 owners maintain their cars in the same way. Therefore, different issues happen to different people

Doublebase

I think when you throw around words like "disgrace" and "low standards", when talking about this particular car (which you did in other posts in this thread), it makes you lose credibility in whatever "goal" you have in proving this is a "least reliable" vehicle when compared to vehicles dating back to 1989.

Do you own one of these cars? Because you sound a little angry regarding the reliability subject. Or do you own a LS400 or LS430, and are one of the types who like to troll around saying, "my car is better than your car"? Because that too would discredit your quest.

I think if your "goal" is to prove this is a most unreliable vehicle since 1989, you should direct some of your research to the sources I listed already in this thread (KBB, cars.com, cargurus, etc). There you will be able to read real stories from 2007 LS 460 owners. That's what I did before I purchased mine.

You also have my personal testimony of my experience with this vehicle. I could also include a conversation I had with a service writer a month ago, where he said, "tires and brakes till 200k miles, that's it. And it will feel like a new car the whole way, we do nothing to these things". And there was a guy next to me who owned an 08 and he said, "yeah I have a 137k on mine, just basic maintenance". We were both there for the fuel sensor recall. Speaking of that recall, do you hold that against the car in your rankings? Do recalls in general knock the car down in your goal? If so, does the valve spring recall hurt the reliability in your mind? Because it was done for free and there has been no problems since (or before for that matter).

Shibumi1

A dealer i work with here has an 09 460awd 126k miles asking $19900.. only needs front bumper sprayed.. looks like clear is pealing.. (they maybe fixing this prior to sale. As i saw it when it first arrived fri morn)

Pm me for info ..

Gbp

If you look at Pamperme's post history, you'll see where he's coming from. Here's a thread he started, thanking Toyota and Lexus for their great reliability:

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...ota-lexus.html

Yes, he seems to have or had an LS430 and is in part using that as a yardstick against the earlier model years LS460's, but that's not the whole story. He also seems to take the Lexus slogan "relentless pursuit of perfection" seriously. I don't see any problem with that.

Pamperme believes that known issues, such as the control arm design, should have not just been fixed on their newer vehicles, but should have been recalled edit: subject to a service campaign and fixed for free on their older vehicles. To him, and I agree, it doesn't reflect well on Lexus's reputation to not address this issue for owners of the early model years, especially if the problem is as prevalent as it seems.

Another example that comes to mind is the sticky and dashboard cracking problem that some models apparently suffered from. Lexus eventually stepped up and addressed the problem, I believe even trying to make whole owners who had spent money fixing the problem, but before that, Lexus seemed to deny responsibility for the problem.

Regarding service campaigns, see:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...free/index.htm

You can make a similar case for the wind noise issue and the inadequate approach Lexus has taken for model years prone to that problem, even with Jmcranney's (sp.?) solution to the problem and his heroic (but futile) efforts to have Lexus officially implement a workable solution to the problem.

I'm not a Lexus hater -- I just bought a 2010 CPO LS460 -- but I also think we need to consider that Lexus has made some missteps in addressing prior mechanical and maintenance issues. Compared to other auto manufacturers, this might be insignificant; compared to Lexus's prior stellar record with the LS series, those missteps become more significant.

This is my take on Pamperme's position, and I can see the merits of it.

Pamperme

In the earlier consumer Reports magazines, the colored circles did track "absolute reliability" as you say. The reader had to then compare a particular model with the Average record which was shown in the beginning of the chart. I prefer this method over CR's more recent method because one could compare different models and different years to ascertain which one was actually more reliable compared to a model with a different year. It wasn't until the more recent articles when a model's rating took into account the average rating for that year, which made comparing between years less transparent. But even still, the data can still be compiled throughout the years to see which generations the LS may have shined the brightest.

With regard to the other factors you mentioned: age, complexity, demographics, driving style, etc, those factors don't discount the data that CR's has published because those factors aren't considered by them to begin with. In fact I'm not aware of any reliability program that reflects this information within their reporting. Are you? So whenever reliablity measurements are made by the different organizations that compile them, then any issue you have as far as those variables not being factored into their rating system is an issue that you need to take up with them, not me; and question their accuracy, not mine. So whether or not the model being evaluated is a 1990 or a 2010 model, there remains a level of consistency in data computation that can be used to compare between them. As an example, because CR's radar expands throughout a period of 10 years, then what I do is compare the life cycle of a 10 year old 1990 vehicle to the life cycle of a 10 year old 2005 vehicle. The 2007 model year LS is only 8 years old. So I have compared all previous model LS's up to the their 8year life cycle. And within the first 3-4 years, the 2007 LS had more issues than the previous LS's at the 3-4 year mark. But come the 7-8 year mark, the 1993 LS appears to have had about the same or possibly more issues than the 2007 LS within that same span.

I truly do understand your point of view as far as the limitations that may exist in trying to compare cars between different generations. And currently there isn't a black and white method of consistency that exists to precisely determine to the nth degree reliability between them. But there is enough information out there between CR's back issues, online consumer reviews, forums, dealer mechanic perspectives, and more, that can all be compiled to formulate a reasonable conclusion. And while my position on this forum may not be popular, there has yet to be anyone anywhere near as detailed as I have been to support their view as I have been in supporting mine. The best that I have encountered on here are efforts by you and others in casting doubt and poking holes in my methodology. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. But i have given you the reasons based on data I have outlined.

Doublebase

And I too am a reliability fanatic, which is why I like my LS460 (and why I argue his point).

I have read all the reviews, reports, customer opinions and I own one. I drive it every single day. This control arm issue is maybe not quite as wide spread as it is made out to be around here and even if it was, there are plenty of low cost alternatives to fix the issue. Control arms break, the bushings wear out on every car - this is fact - so I don't see what the big deal is. It's like saying ball joints and tie rod ends don't wear out in their ball sockets...it happens on every single car. Every one of them. In fact I'd say it happens less on the LS460 - I've never heard of a tie rod end going bad on a LS460, that's insane. And the car doesn't have ball joints - in the normal sense - it has the stud and ball at the end of the control arm (which can be replaced as a unit if need be). Making it to 100k or 120k before having to replace it is not a bad thing in my opinion. And that's what most people do. Mine are 8 years and 98k miles old, and they are fine.

How much does it cost to replace the timing belts in a 430? And let's not forget that the water pump is replaced at the same time (at 90k miles I believe). What does Lexus charge for this service, parts and labor? $1200? A grand? Eight hundred bucks? There's your cost for control arm replacement at an independent shop, with some left over.

And yet no one mentions the 8 speed transmission in the car, that unit alone is responsible for substantial fuel savings over the LS430. What can you save in a year...$500? $600? And I know this has nothing to do with reliability or the relentless pursuit of perfection, but to call the car a disgrace or low in standards is ridiculous (which is what he is doing on this thread).

So I'll put aside the $1200 that I don't have to spend on a timing belt, or the $600 I save on gas each year and put it into a "control arm fund". Or I'll just order a complete set on ebay and put them in myself for four hundred bucks, 25k miles from now.

roadfrog

Why would there be a recall???? Recalls are designated for SAFETY issues.

I'll agree that the LS460 is not perfect. It is ALMOST perfect. "The Relentless Pursuit Of Perfection" means they will always pursue it, not necessarily achieve it. That's good enough for me. Especially when one has been exposed to Germany's offerings....or anyone else's for that matter, including Japan.

satiger

iTrader: (1)

I had been debating whether to post in this thread or not due to being branded as non-loyal Lexus guy . However, after seeing Gbp's post, couldn't resist - he nailed it. My stand on 07-10 460 model is the result of rapid growth focused approach they took since beginning of 2000 thus lost the focus on their trade mark QC. Similar issues on other models would not have resulted in such a dissatisfaction among owners. LS is their flagship product and Lexus needs to / should beat their own reliability set goals.

Toyota's Total Quality Control (TQC), Toyota Production System (TPS) , Kanban etc are widely studied subjects in Universities. They become integral part of Toyota's QC. There are few analytical based studies have conducted in the wake of Toyota's slip in QC by end of 2000.

One such publication was written by Robert E. Cole is a professor at the University
of California Berkeley Business School and published by MIT . One can find the article here : http://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/w...ned-to-toyota/ . Some excerpt from that article:
" Akio Toyoda, Toyota’s current president (and grandson of the company’s founder), puts the turning point at 2003; from then on, sales grew faster than the company could manage. He acknowledges that the strategic focus on growth warped the “order of Toyota’s traditional priorities.”14 In other words, growth had taken priority over the company’s traditional focus on quality. "

"Between 2000 and 2007, Toyota’s North American sales increased from 1.7 million
units to 2.9 million units, and the company’s offerings grew from 18 to 30 models. Lead time between exterior design approval and start of sales was compressed to less than 20 months. Accelerated design cycles strained the company’s development and production systems and pushed human resources to the limit, creating the conditions for quality failures. "

"Around 70% of the value added in Toyota’s vehicles comes from parts and subassemblies
produced by its suppliers. So the consequences of the growth and complexity were felt across the
company’s supply chain. "

" A high-level Toyota executive publicly acknowledged in 2010 that, facing internal manpower shortages,the company had no choice but to use a large number of new contract engineers to boost engineering capacity. In his view, that contributed to the increases in quality glitches."

Another interesting book is "Toyota Under Fire: Lessons for Turning Crisis into Opportunity " link : .

dlbuckls10

Sorry to hear about your unfortunate situation with your LS. Overall, I believe the LS is the most reliable luxury sedan one can purchase. Repairs can be expensive and that applies to any luxury vehicle. DIY can save you money but it can also cost you thousands.

Gbp

Thanks for the correction. I changed my post to say "service campaign".

roberthell

You should try and find a engine, trans service that replaces your car with used engines from Japan. A company by the name Japanese Engines in Portland, OR and Houston, TX and Atlanta, GA . There some environmental law in Japan were owners have to replace their engines and transmission after so many kilometers, they ship to the US and sell as good used engines. Hope this helps you out.