Here's a Blackstone Oil Report for an '09 LS460
04-19-15, 06:52 PM
#16
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
I had a good look at the oil report.
It appears to me there was nothing wrong with the oil. The TBN was fine and there was no major additive depletion, viscosity issue and the flash point was just fine.
There was however very high metal wear and I believe it was because of the Zmax . There have been many complaints of Zmax and other oil additives ruining engines in a short time.
It appears to me there was nothing wrong with the oil. The TBN was fine and there was no major additive depletion, viscosity issue and the flash point was just fine.
There was however very high metal wear and I believe it was because of the Zmax . There have been many complaints of Zmax and other oil additives ruining engines in a short time.
04-20-15, 04:16 AM
#17
Pole Position
I had a good look at the oil report.
It appears to me there was nothing wrong with the oil. The TBN was fine and there was no major additive depletion, viscosity issue and the flash point was just fine.
There was however very high metal wear and I believe it was because of the Zmax . There have been many complaints of Zmax and other oil additives ruining engines in a short time.
It appears to me there was nothing wrong with the oil. The TBN was fine and there was no major additive depletion, viscosity issue and the flash point was just fine.
There was however very high metal wear and I believe it was because of the Zmax . There have been many complaints of Zmax and other oil additives ruining engines in a short time.
04-20-15, 07:36 AM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
This was disturbing....particularly the part I highlighted:
For Release: February 1, 2001
FTC Sues Speedway Motorsports and Oil-Chem Subsidiary
Performance Claims For zMax Auto Additives Are Unsubstantiated, FTC Charges
The Federal Trade Commission has filed suit in U. S. District Court seeking to halt false and misleading advertising for zMax auto additives and has asked the court to order refunds to consumers who bought the products. The agency alleges that enhanced performance claims for the product are unsubstantiated, that tests cited to support performance claims actually demonstrated that motor oil treated with zMax produced more than twice as much bearing corrosion than motor oil alone , and that the three different products - an engine additive, a fuel line additive and a transmission additive - were all actually tinted mineral oil. zMax is manufactured by Oil-Chem, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Speedway Motorsports, Inc. Speedway, based in Concord, North Carolina, operates NASCAR race tracks in the South and in California, in addition to marketing the zMax products.
According to the FTC complaint, since at least May 1999, zMax ran infomercials touting its "Power System," a $39 package of three additives to be used in the engine, fuel line and transmission of automobiles. The infomercials feature testimonials from consumers and race car drivers making claims such as, "I was averaging about 22 miles to the gallon on the highway. I installed the zMax and so I jumped right up to about 28 miles per gallon;" and "zMax guarantees a minimum of 10 percent gas mileage increase." Other marketing and promotional pieces claim, "zMax with LinKite has the scientific, CRC L38 proof it takes your car to the MAX!" and "Why zMAX Works - Cuts carbon build-up on valve stems 66%; Lowers wear on valve stems 66%; Lowers wear on piston skirts 60%; Reduces blow-by leakage 17.7%; Increases combustion efficiency 9.25%; Lowers fuel consumption 8.5% - Results of an independent CRC L38 test."
According to the FTC, the CRC L38 test is a standard auto industry tool to measure the bearing corrosion protection properties of motor oils. In February/March 1997, an independent laboratory performed two CRC L38 tests of zMax for Speedway and Oil Chem. In those tests, motor oil treated with zMax produced more than twice as much bearing corrosion as motor oil alone. The complaint also states that the defendants fabricated one "report" from the two test reports, eliminating the bearing corrosion results and all other negative test results, and then used that report and the "official laboratory results" - similarly edited to remove detrimental data results - as sales tools in the infomercial and on the zMax Web site.
The FTC's complaint alleges that the defendants did not possess and rely on reasonable substantiation for the following claims in the infomercial, on the Web site and in brochures that zMax:
increases gas mileage;
increases gas mileage by a minimum of 10%
reduces engine wear;
reduces or eliminates engine wear at startup;
reduces engine corrosion;
extends engine life; and
reduces emissions.
The agency's complaint also alleges that the defendants falsely represent that the results of the CRC L38 test proved that zMax:
increases gas mileage;
reduces engine wear;
extends engine life;
lowers fuel consumption by 8.5%
lowers wear on valve stems by 66%
lowers wear on piston skirts by 60%; and
cuts carbon build-up on valve stems by 66%.
Finally, the FTC charges that in consumer testimonials and endorsements in their advertising, the defendants did not have substantiation for the representation that the endorsers' experiences were, "The actual and current opinions, findings, beliefs, and/or experiences of those consumers; and the typical or ordinary experience of members of the public who use the product."
The FTC is asking the court to bar the defendants from violating the FTC Act, which prohibits deceptive acts and to order consumer redress or require that they give up their ill-gotten gains.
This case is the latest in a series of FTC law-enforcement initiatives targeting unsubstantiated claims made by auto additive manufacturers. The FTC previously halted allegedly deceptive advertising by the marketers of Dura Lube, Motor Up, Prolong, Valvoline, Slick 50, and STP, other major brands of engine treatment products.
The Commission vote to file the complaint was 5-0. It was filed in U.S. District Court for the Middle District of North Carolina, in Greensboro, January 31, 2001.
FTC Sues Speedway Motorsports and Oil-Chem Subsidiary
Performance Claims For zMax Auto Additives Are Unsubstantiated, FTC Charges
The Federal Trade Commission has filed suit in U. S. District Court seeking to halt false and misleading advertising for zMax auto additives and has asked the court to order refunds to consumers who bought the products. The agency alleges that enhanced performance claims for the product are unsubstantiated, that tests cited to support performance claims actually demonstrated that motor oil treated with zMax produced more than twice as much bearing corrosion than motor oil alone , and that the three different products - an engine additive, a fuel line additive and a transmission additive - were all actually tinted mineral oil. zMax is manufactured by Oil-Chem, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Speedway Motorsports, Inc. Speedway, based in Concord, North Carolina, operates NASCAR race tracks in the South and in California, in addition to marketing the zMax products.
According to the FTC complaint, since at least May 1999, zMax ran infomercials touting its "Power System," a $39 package of three additives to be used in the engine, fuel line and transmission of automobiles. The infomercials feature testimonials from consumers and race car drivers making claims such as, "I was averaging about 22 miles to the gallon on the highway. I installed the zMax and so I jumped right up to about 28 miles per gallon;" and "zMax guarantees a minimum of 10 percent gas mileage increase." Other marketing and promotional pieces claim, "zMax with LinKite has the scientific, CRC L38 proof it takes your car to the MAX!" and "Why zMAX Works - Cuts carbon build-up on valve stems 66%; Lowers wear on valve stems 66%; Lowers wear on piston skirts 60%; Reduces blow-by leakage 17.7%; Increases combustion efficiency 9.25%; Lowers fuel consumption 8.5% - Results of an independent CRC L38 test."
According to the FTC, the CRC L38 test is a standard auto industry tool to measure the bearing corrosion protection properties of motor oils. In February/March 1997, an independent laboratory performed two CRC L38 tests of zMax for Speedway and Oil Chem. In those tests, motor oil treated with zMax produced more than twice as much bearing corrosion as motor oil alone. The complaint also states that the defendants fabricated one "report" from the two test reports, eliminating the bearing corrosion results and all other negative test results, and then used that report and the "official laboratory results" - similarly edited to remove detrimental data results - as sales tools in the infomercial and on the zMax Web site.
The FTC's complaint alleges that the defendants did not possess and rely on reasonable substantiation for the following claims in the infomercial, on the Web site and in brochures that zMax:
increases gas mileage;
increases gas mileage by a minimum of 10%
reduces engine wear;
reduces or eliminates engine wear at startup;
reduces engine corrosion;
extends engine life; and
reduces emissions.
The agency's complaint also alleges that the defendants falsely represent that the results of the CRC L38 test proved that zMax:
increases gas mileage;
reduces engine wear;
extends engine life;
lowers fuel consumption by 8.5%
lowers wear on valve stems by 66%
lowers wear on piston skirts by 60%; and
cuts carbon build-up on valve stems by 66%.
Finally, the FTC charges that in consumer testimonials and endorsements in their advertising, the defendants did not have substantiation for the representation that the endorsers' experiences were, "The actual and current opinions, findings, beliefs, and/or experiences of those consumers; and the typical or ordinary experience of members of the public who use the product."
The FTC is asking the court to bar the defendants from violating the FTC Act, which prohibits deceptive acts and to order consumer redress or require that they give up their ill-gotten gains.
This case is the latest in a series of FTC law-enforcement initiatives targeting unsubstantiated claims made by auto additive manufacturers. The FTC previously halted allegedly deceptive advertising by the marketers of Dura Lube, Motor Up, Prolong, Valvoline, Slick 50, and STP, other major brands of engine treatment products.
The Commission vote to file the complaint was 5-0. It was filed in U.S. District Court for the Middle District of North Carolina, in Greensboro, January 31, 2001.
04-20-15, 09:00 AM
#19
It could also be that the Zmax has soaked up to a great degree the buffering ability of the oil if the TBN was high to begin with. Even though it's low it is not the cause of the metal wear.
Last edited by Devh; 04-20-15 at 09:16 AM.
04-20-15, 09:14 AM
#20
There are some additives that have worth in a sea of bad additives with misleading claims and although we can say that someone is just throwing money away it may actually cause harm to your engine. Most will not notice the ill effects but one day when that person gets rod knock or low compression pistons they will never attribute it to their miracle in a can and that person will start the process over and push it on other people.
04-20-15, 09:56 AM
#21
Pole Position
There are some additives that have worth in a sea of bad additives with misleading claims and although we can say that someone is just throwing money away it may actually cause harm to your engine. Most will not notice the ill effects but one day when that person gets rod knock or low compression pistons they will never attribute it to their miracle in a can and that person will start the process over and push it on other people.
The sad part is if you have an engine that was not engineered well, you are going to have problems no matter what oil you use. It's like a person that inherits high cholesterol from their parents, no matter what diet you use or workout program you try...you are still going to have high cholesterol and you'll be on medication for it. Yes the working out won't hurt, but you still will never cure the problem.
Engines that have sludge issues or burn oil, are going to have the same issues no matter what's inside them. But the oil companies make you believe that's not true...it's marketing at it's finest.
04-20-15, 12:22 PM
#22
There is so much crap out there regarding oil and additives. Truth is the testing, the comparisons, the claims, the customer testimonies, the reviews, the marketing...are all flawed/questionable.
The sad part is if you have an engine that was not engineered well, you are going to have problems no matter what oil you use. It's like a person that inherits high cholesterol from their parents, no matter what diet you use or workout program you try...you are still going to have high cholesterol and you'll be on medication for it. Yes the working out won't hurt, but you still will never cure the problem.
Engines that have sludge issues or burn oil, are going to have the same issues no matter what's inside them. But the oil companies make you believe that's not true...it's marketing at it's finest.
The sad part is if you have an engine that was not engineered well, you are going to have problems no matter what oil you use. It's like a person that inherits high cholesterol from their parents, no matter what diet you use or workout program you try...you are still going to have high cholesterol and you'll be on medication for it. Yes the working out won't hurt, but you still will never cure the problem.
Engines that have sludge issues or burn oil, are going to have the same issues no matter what's inside them. But the oil companies make you believe that's not true...it's marketing at it's finest.
As far as additives and synthetics, I worked for 2 OEM for 12 years. One place was actually assembling engines. I worked with a guy who had engine responsibility. I never had anyone engine related make any declaration to me or in any meetings that synthetic is a huge advantage. Is it an advantage? Maybe. If a person is dead set on running long oil change intervals, then I believe synthetic is certainly advantageous. Other advantage? Maybe. Do I think it has any disadvantage? Not other than cost. I run non-synthetic 5W-20. Do I think that alone is going to lead to VVTI issues? Absolutely not. And I have yet to run ANY kind of fuel or oil additive in any of my vehicles. If there were additives or other items that would cause engines to last longer, run better, etc, the OEM would put to use (and Market it) ASAP. They deal with hard, definitive data. Compared to regular maintenance, (i.e. oil changes at correct intervals), I personally think synthetic is ... mostly ... non beneficial. But it would tend to give me and others peace-of-mind. I'm not saying I won't run it, I don't think it's bad, just don't think it's worth it ... and the Blackstone Labs folks seem to be in agreement.
I've read threads on here where it was mentioned something about a build up on VVT components / passages, and that using some sort of oil additive plus synthetic removed the build up. But that kind of information is not based on fact. Unless an engine is torn down before and after and this build up is inspected, there's no way to substantiate anything of the sort. I've seen many engines torn down. And I've seen gunk on this and that. I can't imagine that there is ANY chemical that could remove true build-up, that wouldn't also be harmful to some other area of the engine. They just get gunked up, no matter. In my opinion, clean oil and clean fuel is our only defense. And even at that they will eventually have contamination problems. But not many people keep a vehicle that long anyway. At least every one on these forums takes WAY better care of their vehicle, especially under the hood, than 99% of the population. My engine may blow up tomorrow. But it won't be due to engine oil choice.
But I will mention what I have concerns about, for me. Low miles. My low miles could lead to some kind of premature problem. Maybe premature miles-wise, but not years wise. My 2010 just turned 19k miles. Its a risk I take, I'm not going to go drive extra miles on purpose to battle it. My previous commute was such a great treatment for an engine. 3 slow miles at a steady 30 mph out of my neighborhood and the engine was warmed up. Then about 20 miles cruising on back roads at about 55 - 60 mph. Now I have 3.5 miles each way. They barely get warmed up before shutting off. That can be bad for an engine.
Meant to add one more thing. I've seen quite a few oil analysis reports, all from Blackstone. I'm not trying to say they're not reputable, but I don't recall ever seeing a report that say, "Everything is great, all numbers are normal." I have only seen reports that say (paraphrasing), "This that and the other are OK. Blah blah blah is on the abnormal side ... could be due to XXXXX, try to do YYYYY and check back." I could be full of it, and I'm sort of a conspiracy theorist at heart. I wonder if they've noticed that if they give an, "Everything is A-OK" kind of a report, that customer may tend to never send another sample. But if they joggle a couple numbers this way or that, with a, "blah blah blah, try this YYYYY and check back," they tend to get A LOT more business. I'll be honest, I have a business mind, if I were in that business it would be awfully tempting.
I've never sent a sample in because if I get some result back that I don't want to see, I might drive around with seat covers sucked into the shape of my crack. And do a bunch of useless maintenance chasing a figment of someone's imagination, including my own.
7milesout
Last edited by 7milesout; 04-20-15 at 12:52 PM.
04-20-15, 06:31 PM
#23
Pole Position
Doublebase - Everything you say here I believe to be true. I'm right in line with your thinking. Someone commented above that the Blackstone folks tend to run non-synthetic. I tend to believe that.
As far as additives and synthetics, I worked for 2 OEM for 12 years. One place was actually assembling engines. I worked with a guy who had engine responsibility. I never had anyone engine related make any declaration to me or in any meetings that synthetic is a huge advantage. Is it an advantage? Maybe. If a person is dead set on running long oil change intervals, then I believe synthetic is certainly advantageous. Other advantage? Maybe. Do I think it has any disadvantage? Not other than cost. I run non-synthetic 5W-20. Do I think that alone is going to lead to VVTI issues? Absolutely not. And I have yet to run ANY kind of fuel or oil additive in any of my vehicles. If there were additives or other items that would cause engines to last longer, run better, etc, the OEM would put to use (and Market it) ASAP. They deal with hard, definitive data. Compared to regular maintenance, (i.e. oil changes at correct intervals), I personally think synthetic is ... mostly ... non beneficial. But it would tend to give me and others peace-of-mind. I'm not saying I won't run it, I don't think it's bad, just don't think it's worth it ... and the Blackstone Labs folks seem to be in agreement.
I've read threads on here where it was mentioned something about a build up on VVT components / passages, and that using some sort of oil additive plus synthetic removed the build up. But that kind of information is not based on fact. Unless an engine is torn down before and after and this build up is inspected, there's no way to substantiate anything of the sort. I've seen many engines torn down. And I've seen gunk on this and that. I can't imagine that there is ANY chemical that could remove true build-up, that wouldn't also be harmful to some other area of the engine. They just get gunked up, no matter. In my opinion, clean oil and clean fuel is our only defense. And even at that they will eventually have contamination problems. But not many people keep a vehicle that long anyway. At least every one on these forums takes WAY better care of their vehicle, especially under the hood, than 99% of the population. My engine may blow up tomorrow. But it won't be due to engine oil choice.
But I will mention what I have concerns about, for me. Low miles. My low miles could lead to some kind of premature problem. Maybe premature miles-wise, but not years wise. My 2010 just turned 19k miles. Its a risk I take, I'm not going to go drive extra miles on purpose to battle it. My previous commute was such a great treatment for an engine. 3 slow miles at a steady 30 mph out of my neighborhood and the engine was warmed up. Then about 20 miles cruising on back roads at about 55 - 60 mph. Now I have 3.5 miles each way. They barely get warmed up before shutting off. That can be bad for an engine.
Meant to add one more thing. I've seen quite a few oil analysis reports, all from Blackstone. I'm not trying to say they're not reputable, but I don't recall ever seeing a report that say, "Everything is great, all numbers are normal." I have only seen reports that say (paraphrasing), "This that and the other are OK. Blah blah blah is on the abnormal side ... could be due to XXXXX, try to do YYYYY and check back." I could be full of it, and I'm sort of a conspiracy theorist at heart. I wonder if they've noticed that if they give an, "Everything is A-OK" kind of a report, that customer may tend to never send another sample. But if they joggle a couple numbers this way or that, with a, "blah blah blah, try this YYYYY and check back," they tend to get A LOT more business. I'll be honest, I have a business mind, if I were in that business it would be awfully tempting.
I've never sent a sample in because if I get some result back that I don't want to see, I might drive around with seat covers sucked into the shape of my crack. And do a bunch of useless maintenance chasing a figment of someone's imagination, including my own.
7milesout
As far as additives and synthetics, I worked for 2 OEM for 12 years. One place was actually assembling engines. I worked with a guy who had engine responsibility. I never had anyone engine related make any declaration to me or in any meetings that synthetic is a huge advantage. Is it an advantage? Maybe. If a person is dead set on running long oil change intervals, then I believe synthetic is certainly advantageous. Other advantage? Maybe. Do I think it has any disadvantage? Not other than cost. I run non-synthetic 5W-20. Do I think that alone is going to lead to VVTI issues? Absolutely not. And I have yet to run ANY kind of fuel or oil additive in any of my vehicles. If there were additives or other items that would cause engines to last longer, run better, etc, the OEM would put to use (and Market it) ASAP. They deal with hard, definitive data. Compared to regular maintenance, (i.e. oil changes at correct intervals), I personally think synthetic is ... mostly ... non beneficial. But it would tend to give me and others peace-of-mind. I'm not saying I won't run it, I don't think it's bad, just don't think it's worth it ... and the Blackstone Labs folks seem to be in agreement.
I've read threads on here where it was mentioned something about a build up on VVT components / passages, and that using some sort of oil additive plus synthetic removed the build up. But that kind of information is not based on fact. Unless an engine is torn down before and after and this build up is inspected, there's no way to substantiate anything of the sort. I've seen many engines torn down. And I've seen gunk on this and that. I can't imagine that there is ANY chemical that could remove true build-up, that wouldn't also be harmful to some other area of the engine. They just get gunked up, no matter. In my opinion, clean oil and clean fuel is our only defense. And even at that they will eventually have contamination problems. But not many people keep a vehicle that long anyway. At least every one on these forums takes WAY better care of their vehicle, especially under the hood, than 99% of the population. My engine may blow up tomorrow. But it won't be due to engine oil choice.
But I will mention what I have concerns about, for me. Low miles. My low miles could lead to some kind of premature problem. Maybe premature miles-wise, but not years wise. My 2010 just turned 19k miles. Its a risk I take, I'm not going to go drive extra miles on purpose to battle it. My previous commute was such a great treatment for an engine. 3 slow miles at a steady 30 mph out of my neighborhood and the engine was warmed up. Then about 20 miles cruising on back roads at about 55 - 60 mph. Now I have 3.5 miles each way. They barely get warmed up before shutting off. That can be bad for an engine.
Meant to add one more thing. I've seen quite a few oil analysis reports, all from Blackstone. I'm not trying to say they're not reputable, but I don't recall ever seeing a report that say, "Everything is great, all numbers are normal." I have only seen reports that say (paraphrasing), "This that and the other are OK. Blah blah blah is on the abnormal side ... could be due to XXXXX, try to do YYYYY and check back." I could be full of it, and I'm sort of a conspiracy theorist at heart. I wonder if they've noticed that if they give an, "Everything is A-OK" kind of a report, that customer may tend to never send another sample. But if they joggle a couple numbers this way or that, with a, "blah blah blah, try this YYYYY and check back," they tend to get A LOT more business. I'll be honest, I have a business mind, if I were in that business it would be awfully tempting.
I've never sent a sample in because if I get some result back that I don't want to see, I might drive around with seat covers sucked into the shape of my crack. And do a bunch of useless maintenance chasing a figment of someone's imagination, including my own.
7milesout
I own an old Honda Accord with 282,000 miles on it, you should see what I've done to that thing in terms of oil. I always changed it at 3,000 miles, but the stuff I put in it?? My lord! I once used three different weights, with three different brands in one oil change. Once I put some diesel oil in it (because I didn't have enough 5w30). I went an entire summer putting synthetic in it (because I had a case of free 0w20). For most of the miles I used Walmart Super Tech. Once in a while I put lawn mower oil in it (during the summer). I've topped up with Mystery Oil a few times. And for filters I usually used Fram - which are widely considered the worst oil filters on the market. Never had a problem. It does burn a little oil now, but I attribute that to ring wear with all the miles on it. I've had the valve cover off plenty of times and it looks clean under there.
I think a lot of it comes down to oil change frequency, engine design and driving habits.
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