Repairs Done So Far - Is this normal?
04-27-15, 02:54 PM
#47
Pole Position
... but the FACT remains that the LS460 has been the most unreliable of all the LS generations ... And anyone who fails to recognize that is merely standing in the way of potential progress.
I know we Lexus owners take pride in our cars and don't like to be told negative information, but it's time to put the sensitivity aside and start calling a spade a spade. Anyone who's familiar with my posts knows that I pull no punches when it comes to reliablity. I'll commend Toyota and any other company when they do well, but I will also chew them up and spit them them out when they don't. And Lexus, your LS460's have not been up to par. The later ones seem to have most of the issues addressed, but only time will tell if that remains the case.
I know we Lexus owners take pride in our cars and don't like to be told negative information, but it's time to put the sensitivity aside and start calling a spade a spade. Anyone who's familiar with my posts knows that I pull no punches when it comes to reliablity. I'll commend Toyota and any other company when they do well, but I will also chew them up and spit them them out when they don't. And Lexus, your LS460's have not been up to par. The later ones seem to have most of the issues addressed, but only time will tell if that remains the case.
The 07 LS460 is much better built/more reliable than the 1989 build date LS400s. The very first gen LS400s had ton of issues that time has forgot - bad headlights, leaky door seals, a ton of suspension and fitment issues. Ect. My old neighbor had one of the first gen LS400s, and he said that it had over two weeks of recall/tsb work done by the time he got a second gen LS.
The only LSs that don't really have design issues are the 2000 LS400s and the 2005/2006 LS430s. But they still have minor issues - hood and trunk struts on the LS430; suspension bushing, leaky ECU capacitors, and telescoping steering wheel rattle on the LS400.
But by and large, these are among the most reliable cars you can get.
The LS460 was much worse in some respects than the 2006 LS430, but it's a substantially better car. The control arm issue can be fixed by updating the parts to the post-2010 design, power steering racks need fresh fluid, and the powertrain seems to be very solid.
I don't know whether you have a credible opinion about car reliability. You claim to be an expert on the matter, but you can't spell the word right which is a mild punchline and its been my experience that people who actually understand reliability are detail-oriented individuals who would take the time to spell check.
I have a 2001 LS430 right now, it's a great car. But it takes work. A lot of things need to be freshened up, it's 15 years old with low miles. I'd bet that some of these 8 year old cars with higher miles or rougher lives need some work to make them 'like new'.
04-27-15, 07:05 PM
#48
The 07 LS460 is much better built/more reliable than the 1989 build date LS400s. The very first gen LS400s had ton of issues that time has forgot - bad headlights, leaky door seals, a ton of suspension and fitment issues. Ect. My old neighbor had one of the first gen LS400s, and he said that it had over two weeks of recall/tsb work done by the time he got a second gen LS.
The only LSs that don't really have design issues are the 2000 LS400s and the 2005/2006 LS430s. But they still have minor issues - hood and trunk struts on the LS430; suspension bushing, leaky ECU capacitors, and telescoping steering wheel rattle on the LS400.
But by and large, these are among the most reliable cars you can get.
The LS460 was much worse in some respects than the 2006 LS430, but it's a substantially better car. The control arm issue can be fixed by updating the parts to the post-2010 design, power steering racks need fresh fluid, and the powertrain seems to be very solid.
I don't know whether you have a credible opinion about car reliability. You claim to be an expert on the matter, but you can't spell the word right which is a mild punchline and its been my experience that people who actually understand reliability are detail-oriented individuals who would take the time to spell check.
I have a 2001 LS430 right now, it's a great car. But it takes work. A lot of things need to be freshened up, it's 15 years old with low miles. I'd bet that some of these 8 year old cars with higher miles or rougher lives need some work to make them 'like new'.
The only LSs that don't really have design issues are the 2000 LS400s and the 2005/2006 LS430s. But they still have minor issues - hood and trunk struts on the LS430; suspension bushing, leaky ECU capacitors, and telescoping steering wheel rattle on the LS400.
But by and large, these are among the most reliable cars you can get.
The LS460 was much worse in some respects than the 2006 LS430, but it's a substantially better car. The control arm issue can be fixed by updating the parts to the post-2010 design, power steering racks need fresh fluid, and the powertrain seems to be very solid.
I don't know whether you have a credible opinion about car reliability. You claim to be an expert on the matter, but you can't spell the word right which is a mild punchline and its been my experience that people who actually understand reliability are detail-oriented individuals who would take the time to spell check.
I have a 2001 LS430 right now, it's a great car. But it takes work. A lot of things need to be freshened up, it's 15 years old with low miles. I'd bet that some of these 8 year old cars with higher miles or rougher lives need some work to make them 'like new'.
And my reliability data doesn't need your approval to determine its credibility. The avenues I access to acquire said data are all just as much available to you as they are to me; and they are far more telling than an "old neighbor".
Last edited by Pamperme; 04-27-15 at 07:11 PM.
04-27-15, 07:17 PM
#49
The 07 LS460 is much better built/more reliable than the 1989 build date LS400s. The very first gen LS400s had ton of issues that time has forgot - bad headlights, leaky door seals, a ton of suspension and fitment issues. Ect. My old neighbor had one of the first gen LS400s, and he said that it had over two weeks of recall/tsb work done by the time he got a second gen LS.
The only LSs that don't really have design issues are the 2000 LS400s and the 2005/2006 LS430s. But they still have minor issues - hood and trunk struts on the LS430; suspension bushing, leaky ECU capacitors, and telescoping steering wheel rattle on the LS400.
But by and large, these are among the most reliable cars you can get.
The LS460 was much worse in some respects than the 2006 LS430, but it's a substantially better car. The control arm issue can be fixed by updating the parts to the post-2010 design, power steering racks need fresh fluid, and the powertrain seems to be very solid.
I don't know whether you have a credible opinion about car reliability. You claim to be an expert on the matter, but you can't spell the word right which is a mild punchline and its been my experience that people who actually understand reliability are detail-oriented individuals who would take the time to spell check.
I have a 2001 LS430 right now, it's a great car. But it takes work. A lot of things need to be freshened up, it's 15 years old with low miles. I'd bet that some of these 8 year old cars with higher miles or rougher lives need some work to make them 'like new'.
The only LSs that don't really have design issues are the 2000 LS400s and the 2005/2006 LS430s. But they still have minor issues - hood and trunk struts on the LS430; suspension bushing, leaky ECU capacitors, and telescoping steering wheel rattle on the LS400.
But by and large, these are among the most reliable cars you can get.
The LS460 was much worse in some respects than the 2006 LS430, but it's a substantially better car. The control arm issue can be fixed by updating the parts to the post-2010 design, power steering racks need fresh fluid, and the powertrain seems to be very solid.
I don't know whether you have a credible opinion about car reliability. You claim to be an expert on the matter, but you can't spell the word right which is a mild punchline and its been my experience that people who actually understand reliability are detail-oriented individuals who would take the time to spell check.
I have a 2001 LS430 right now, it's a great car. But it takes work. A lot of things need to be freshened up, it's 15 years old with low miles. I'd bet that some of these 8 year old cars with higher miles or rougher lives need some work to make them 'like new'.
I wholeheartedly agree on the powertrain of the LS460. Regarding the control arms, that surely is my hope, though I don't know if the jury is still out (would've sworn that some folks on here have had those new ones fail too, but I'm not sure and hope I'm wrong). Some steering rack batches did have some manufacturing issues for '07 and '08 (not sure about '09), but no fluid is needed - they're electric.
Last edited by caha14; 04-27-15 at 07:42 PM.
04-27-15, 07:25 PM
#50
This is a helpful perspective, especially since you outline generation/model-year-specific issues. The main issue I remember reading about for the first LS400 was the 3rd brake light recall issue, which according to The Lexus Story, generated quite an uproar at the company and was handled in a manner that was unheard-of for the industry.
I wholeheartedly agree on the powertrain of the LS460. Regarding the control arms, that surely is my hope, though I don't know if the jury is still out (would've sworn that some folks on here have had those fail, but I'm not sure and hope I'm wrong). Some steering rack batches did have some manufacturing issues for '07 and '08 (not sure about '09), but no fluid is needed - they're electric.
I wholeheartedly agree on the powertrain of the LS460. Regarding the control arms, that surely is my hope, though I don't know if the jury is still out (would've sworn that some folks on here have had those fail, but I'm not sure and hope I'm wrong). Some steering rack batches did have some manufacturing issues for '07 and '08 (not sure about '09), but no fluid is needed - they're electric.
04-27-15, 07:35 PM
#51
At any rate, I don't think airchomper's objective was to be comprehensive and thorough, nor is that required. He did offer some specificity, and what I said many posts ago about the LS460 applies to the other generations too: where there are TSIBs (or recalls), there isn't much to argue against.
04-27-15, 07:51 PM
#52
CR is a whole separate conversation, my friend... If memory serves me right, they once recommended the Audi 5000S in the 1980s, but I digress.
At any rate, I don't think airchomper's objective was to be comprehensive and thorough, nor is that required. He did offer some specificity, and what I said many posts ago about the LS460 applies to the other generations too: where there are TSIBs (or recalls), there isn't much to argue against.
At any rate, I don't think airchomper's objective was to be comprehensive and thorough, nor is that required. He did offer some specificity, and what I said many posts ago about the LS460 applies to the other generations too: where there are TSIBs (or recalls), there isn't much to argue against.
Airchomper may not have meant to be comprehensive and thorough, but I was definately making my points based on the comprehensive and thorough year to year information consumer reports puts out regularly. And based on that, the LS 460 is outshined by former LS models. However, the newest LS's seem to have addressed this as of now.
I agree with you on the recalls. If a company steps up and corrects the problem, like they did with the 04LS430's transmissions and fuel pumps, then that can be excused to a large extent. TSB's don't ensure the dealer will cover the cost, however. So that's not a "get out of jail free pass" in my book.
Last edited by Pamperme; 04-28-15 at 10:03 AM.
04-27-15, 09:47 PM
#53
Pole Position
Consumer reports doesn't have anything as detail oriented as the knowledge on this forum.
Although we don't really know how common issues are, members of this community know what the problems are and how to solve them. Look at the issue about wind noise from the front window trim - club lexus members diagnosed the issue and figured out how to repair it.
And for the anecdote about my neighbor - it was simply to illustrate the point that the very first LS400s were way less reliable / had way more issues than the average LS460. Go read about the recalls and the TSBs for the first LS400s - Lexus even rented out extra garages to fix the cars quickly. The fact of the matter is that the first gen LS400s were way less reliable at a few weeks old (in any sense of the word) and showing more issues than the first gen LS460s ever did, and it seems to take at least 60,000 miles to start showing the symptoms of their issues.
It's completely incorrect to slander the LS460 as the least reliable Lexus LS ever. It's not a fact. It's your opinion. And it's not even a well-formed opinion.
And there's not a ton of progess that can be made beyond putting in newer parts. Cars wear out, some parts wear at different rates on different cars. Chevy cavaliers go through ball joints on a regular basis, Lexus sedans don't. Lexus sedans can go through suspension bushings on a regular basis, BMWs with the N54 go through fuel pumps. It's not ideal, it's expensive, but it's a known issue and if you watch for the symptoms you can address it.
The biggest problem with the Lexus LS460's quality is every one compares it to the 1998-2006 Lexus LSs which seem to be the most reliable luxury cars ever, and among the most reliable cars. If we compared the LS460 to any other luxury brand's flagship we'd see that the LS460 is undoubtedly the leader of the pack. And if you think of the cost to get the car to go 200,000 miles, I'd be the LS460 is an order of magnitude cheaper to operate than every European car.
I don't think there's much Lexus can do with the platform. The LS460 is kind of a panda - it's a dead end. The LS430 was basically the fourth iteration/fourth generation of the LS400, and the LS460 was basically a clean sheet design. Lexus will probably use another fresh platform for the next LS, so there's a low likelihood that newer and better parts will be available for the car.
If you don't like the car, give me $2,000 we'll swap titles, and you can enjoy a true luxury and supreme reliability in my beloved LS430.
Although we don't really know how common issues are, members of this community know what the problems are and how to solve them. Look at the issue about wind noise from the front window trim - club lexus members diagnosed the issue and figured out how to repair it.
And for the anecdote about my neighbor - it was simply to illustrate the point that the very first LS400s were way less reliable / had way more issues than the average LS460. Go read about the recalls and the TSBs for the first LS400s - Lexus even rented out extra garages to fix the cars quickly. The fact of the matter is that the first gen LS400s were way less reliable at a few weeks old (in any sense of the word) and showing more issues than the first gen LS460s ever did, and it seems to take at least 60,000 miles to start showing the symptoms of their issues.
It's completely incorrect to slander the LS460 as the least reliable Lexus LS ever. It's not a fact. It's your opinion. And it's not even a well-formed opinion.
And there's not a ton of progess that can be made beyond putting in newer parts. Cars wear out, some parts wear at different rates on different cars. Chevy cavaliers go through ball joints on a regular basis, Lexus sedans don't. Lexus sedans can go through suspension bushings on a regular basis, BMWs with the N54 go through fuel pumps. It's not ideal, it's expensive, but it's a known issue and if you watch for the symptoms you can address it.
The biggest problem with the Lexus LS460's quality is every one compares it to the 1998-2006 Lexus LSs which seem to be the most reliable luxury cars ever, and among the most reliable cars. If we compared the LS460 to any other luxury brand's flagship we'd see that the LS460 is undoubtedly the leader of the pack. And if you think of the cost to get the car to go 200,000 miles, I'd be the LS460 is an order of magnitude cheaper to operate than every European car.
I don't think there's much Lexus can do with the platform. The LS460 is kind of a panda - it's a dead end. The LS430 was basically the fourth iteration/fourth generation of the LS400, and the LS460 was basically a clean sheet design. Lexus will probably use another fresh platform for the next LS, so there's a low likelihood that newer and better parts will be available for the car.
If you don't like the car, give me $2,000 we'll swap titles, and you can enjoy a true luxury and supreme reliability in my beloved LS430.
Last edited by airchomper; 04-27-15 at 09:49 PM. Reason: accidentally a word
04-28-15, 03:43 AM
#54
There are excuses; and then there are facts. I prefer the latter. Consumer Reports, this forum, and even many Lexus technicians all tell the same story: this generation LS has had more issues than previous ones. One can accept it or deny it. It is completely their choice. But that is a FACT.
Last edited by Pamperme; 04-28-15 at 03:46 AM.
04-28-15, 08:01 AM
#55
Pole Position
And the facts of the matter are that the 1989 LS400s had way more issues than the 2007/2008 LS460s. Go check Toyota Techstream for 1989 build date LS400s and compare the TSBs and tech tips to the 2007/2008 LS460s. Oh wait you can't because you don't use expert resources, and although you claim to be familiar
And not only did the 1989 LS400s have more issues, their issues manifested way earlier in the life of the car. Surely someone as argumentative as you must concede that time before and between failures is a component of reliability.
So my argument is this - judging by recalls and TSBs, the 1989 LS400s had more issues in the factory warranty period than 2007/2008 LS460s.
The weak version of my claim is that it's not factual to say that the 2007/2008 LS460s are the least reliable Lexus LSs ever, and the strong version of my claim is that the 2007/2008 LS460s are a good deal more reliable than the 1989 LS400s and in a lot of ways that we don't normally consider. I bet that the LS460's seats won't tear as easy, and the door seals in the LS460 wont leak on a car with few than 100k miles.
I'm a practitioner of bayesian statistics, which is primary the study of how evidence should inform our beliefs. And although we've both considered the publicly available data, I've formed my belief in light of expert opinions- talking to very first gen owners and technicians who actually performed these TSBs.
Is the LS460 less reliable than the 2006 LS430? Definitely. Is the LS460 much more expensive to repair? Yes, especially if you shop around for experts and o.e.m parts. Is the LS460 the least reliable LS since 1991? Probably. But it's not the least reliable Lexus LS generation ever.
And by and large, LS460s share common issues - things like suspension bushings and electronic parking brakes, which makes diagnostics way easier. Many cars don't have common issues, they just consistently have issues with random things.
But I'm a reasonable man. Show me the 'facts' that portray the LS460 in worse light than the 1989 LS400s and I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.
And not only did the 1989 LS400s have more issues, their issues manifested way earlier in the life of the car. Surely someone as argumentative as you must concede that time before and between failures is a component of reliability.
So my argument is this - judging by recalls and TSBs, the 1989 LS400s had more issues in the factory warranty period than 2007/2008 LS460s.
The weak version of my claim is that it's not factual to say that the 2007/2008 LS460s are the least reliable Lexus LSs ever, and the strong version of my claim is that the 2007/2008 LS460s are a good deal more reliable than the 1989 LS400s and in a lot of ways that we don't normally consider. I bet that the LS460's seats won't tear as easy, and the door seals in the LS460 wont leak on a car with few than 100k miles.
I'm a practitioner of bayesian statistics, which is primary the study of how evidence should inform our beliefs. And although we've both considered the publicly available data, I've formed my belief in light of expert opinions- talking to very first gen owners and technicians who actually performed these TSBs.
Is the LS460 less reliable than the 2006 LS430? Definitely. Is the LS460 much more expensive to repair? Yes, especially if you shop around for experts and o.e.m parts. Is the LS460 the least reliable LS since 1991? Probably. But it's not the least reliable Lexus LS generation ever.
And by and large, LS460s share common issues - things like suspension bushings and electronic parking brakes, which makes diagnostics way easier. Many cars don't have common issues, they just consistently have issues with random things.
But I'm a reasonable man. Show me the 'facts' that portray the LS460 in worse light than the 1989 LS400s and I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.
04-28-15, 08:36 AM
#56
And the facts of the matter are that the 1989 LS400s had way more issues than the 2007/2008 LS460s. Go check Toyota Techstream for 1989 build date LS400s and compare the TSBs and tech tips to the 2007/2008 LS460s. Oh wait you can't because you don't use expert resources, and although you claim to be familiar
And not only did the 1989 LS400s have more issues, their issues manifested way earlier in the life of the car. Surely someone as argumentative as you must concede that time before and between failures is a component of reliability.
So my argument is this - judging by recalls and TSBs, the 1989 LS400s had more issues in the factory warranty period than 2007/2008 LS460s.
The weak version of my claim is that it's not factual to say that the 2007/2008 LS460s are the least reliable Lexus LSs ever, and the strong version of my claim is that the 2007/2008 LS460s are a good deal more reliable than the 1989 LS400s and in a lot of ways that we don't normally consider. I bet that the LS460's seats won't tear as easy, and the door seals in the LS460 wont leak on a car with few than 100k miles.
I'm a practitioner of bayesian statistics, which is primary the study of how evidence should inform our beliefs. And although we've both considered the publicly available data, I've formed my belief in light of expert opinions- talking to very first gen owners and technicians who actually performed these TSBs.
Is the LS460 less reliable than the 2006 LS430? Definitely. Is the LS460 much more expensive to repair? Yes, especially if you shop around for experts and o.e.m parts. Is the LS460 the least reliable LS since 1991? Probably. But it's not the least reliable Lexus LS generation ever.
And by and large, LS460s share common issues - things like suspension bushings and electronic parking brakes, which makes diagnostics way easier. Many cars don't have common issues, they just consistently have issues with random things.
But I'm a reasonable man. Show me the 'facts' that portray the LS460 in worse light than the 1989 LS400s and I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.
And not only did the 1989 LS400s have more issues, their issues manifested way earlier in the life of the car. Surely someone as argumentative as you must concede that time before and between failures is a component of reliability.
So my argument is this - judging by recalls and TSBs, the 1989 LS400s had more issues in the factory warranty period than 2007/2008 LS460s.
The weak version of my claim is that it's not factual to say that the 2007/2008 LS460s are the least reliable Lexus LSs ever, and the strong version of my claim is that the 2007/2008 LS460s are a good deal more reliable than the 1989 LS400s and in a lot of ways that we don't normally consider. I bet that the LS460's seats won't tear as easy, and the door seals in the LS460 wont leak on a car with few than 100k miles.
I'm a practitioner of bayesian statistics, which is primary the study of how evidence should inform our beliefs. And although we've both considered the publicly available data, I've formed my belief in light of expert opinions- talking to very first gen owners and technicians who actually performed these TSBs.
Is the LS460 less reliable than the 2006 LS430? Definitely. Is the LS460 much more expensive to repair? Yes, especially if you shop around for experts and o.e.m parts. Is the LS460 the least reliable LS since 1991? Probably. But it's not the least reliable Lexus LS generation ever.
And by and large, LS460s share common issues - things like suspension bushings and electronic parking brakes, which makes diagnostics way easier. Many cars don't have common issues, they just consistently have issues with random things.
But I'm a reasonable man. Show me the 'facts' that portray the LS460 in worse light than the 1989 LS400s and I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.
And I've already stated my position on recalls and TSBs.
04-28-15, 08:37 AM
#57
There are excuses; and then there are facts. I prefer the latter. Consumer Reports, this forum, and even many Lexus technicians all tell the same story: this generation LS has had more issues than previous ones. One can accept it or deny it. It is completely their choice. But that is a FACT.
I don't trust CR either however their long term trend reporting seems to fairly accurate. Not only CR but there is not one other competing publication that has made the LS 460 less then stellar except for one publication that has given the 2007LS a half solid on the engine reliability due to the valve springs.
All other years were outstanding in the reliability department. The overall subjective drive compared to the competition ranked it lower but not by much.
04-28-15, 10:08 AM
#58
Pole Position
Since 2007 which introduced the LS460 brand, there have been roughly 100,000 of these vehicles (07-12) sold in the US alone (Global is a different count). I don't think they're all accounted for here. This site, which is a great source of information, attracts two types of people: Those seeking info about a particular Lexus vehicle and those with Lexus car problems.
While I realize certain cars can have more issues that others, this site would be a small representation of LS460 problems. It is an excellent place to get answers. However, you are going to get a big hit on problems about a particular car. I would be hard pressed to say Club Lexus is the key indicator to LS460 or any Lexus problems. But a great place to get answers to questions.
While I realize certain cars can have more issues that others, this site would be a small representation of LS460 problems. It is an excellent place to get answers. However, you are going to get a big hit on problems about a particular car. I would be hard pressed to say Club Lexus is the key indicator to LS460 or any Lexus problems. But a great place to get answers to questions.
04-28-15, 10:20 AM
#59
It amazes me how personal some people get when a criticism is made about their car. Lol.
It's as if someone called their child ugly and the natural reaction is to defend it. Like I've said before. We need to face facts, address them and make enough noise so that a negative fact will not be repeated. Say it with me "excusing the problem, feeds the problem".
This is not a knock on anyone's LS460 or the brand. But it is an area where improvement is needed based upon the stellar track record of former LS generations. Don't settle. Ever! Pamper yourself — PAMPERME!
It's as if someone called their child ugly and the natural reaction is to defend it. Like I've said before. We need to face facts, address them and make enough noise so that a negative fact will not be repeated. Say it with me "excusing the problem, feeds the problem".
This is not a knock on anyone's LS460 or the brand. But it is an area where improvement is needed based upon the stellar track record of former LS generations. Don't settle. Ever! Pamper yourself — PAMPERME!
Last edited by Pamperme; 04-28-15 at 10:40 AM.
04-28-15, 10:34 AM
#60
It amazes me how personal some people get when a criticism is made about their car. Lol.
It's as if someone called their child ugly and the natural reaction is to defend it. Like I've said before. We need to face facts, address them and make enough noise so that a negative fact will not be repeated. Say it with me "excusing the problem, feeds the problem".
This is not a knock on anyone's LS460 or the brand. But it it is an area where improvement is needed based upon the stellar track record of former LS generations. Don't settle. Ever! Pamper yourself — PAMPERME!
It's as if someone called their child ugly and the natural reaction is to defend it. Like I've said before. We need to face facts, address them and make enough noise so that a negative fact will not be repeated. Say it with me "excusing the problem, feeds the problem".
This is not a knock on anyone's LS460 or the brand. But it it is an area where improvement is needed based upon the stellar track record of former LS generations. Don't settle. Ever! Pamper yourself — PAMPERME!
All cars have problems that's just the nature of things. It is fact by more then one publication that the LS460 has not fallen of the map when it comes to reliability as some seem to think. I think the older Lexus is surrounded in a lot more myth then some are willing to admit because of sour grapes.