arcteryx

I went to lexus and looked at the new models. This doesn't make any sense to me and maybe someone can shed some light on it http://www.lexus.com/models/LS

The base starts at $73K and get 24 mpg highway
The sport is $80K and gets 24 highway
The crafted starts at $84K and gets 24 highway.
The hybrid start at $120K and get 23 highway

So WHY does the hybrid cost so much more and gets worse MPG? Maybe because it’s 4WD? But I would certainly expect much better MPG from a hybrid. I mean, the delta between the base/sport is 40-47K. Thats a lot of fuel for 1mpg. I am guessing this is the same/similar technology as in the Prius, so why is it so poor? Maybe there is a feature I am missing?

Quadro

I don't own the LS but the numbers look right to me.

LS460L AWD gets 16/23/18 and 360HP 4.6 V8
LS600HL gets 19/23/20 and 438HP 5.0L V8

The hybrid has a lot more power and a bigger engine all while staying on par or beating the 460 in MPG. Seems to me that's what they tuned it for.

Vansibel

Hybrid = Standard awd, more powerful, more exclusive, more refined. When it came out at first it had a few features you could not get on a regular ls but i'm guessing by now most of it is available for the regular ls.

The hybrid tech in the ls600 was more aimed at power/refinement than fuel economy, as it was supposed to rival v12 model from audi, bmw and mercedes while not being as thirsty. The hybrid do get better gas mileage in town than the regular ls, but if you try only to justify the steep price difference with the gas you're expecting to save, this car is not for you. I'm not sure for the regular ls 460 but in my 600 I can cruise the highway at 120km and my rpm barely hit 1100rpm.

But yeah, from a rational point of view, the ls600 added feature would hardly justify the huge price difference... but it's also what make it more exclusive and more rare.

Devh

There is more to a hybrid then just millage. Torque fill is a concept that is glossed over but now the industry is using it in other cars like the Mclaren p1 .

Nospinzone

What is the city mileage for those models? I'll bet the hybrid does much better in that category. That is where the electric motor really saves the gas.

greg3852

My 07 460 rwd gets real world around 15mpg in the city, 25-30 on the highway depending on how I drive.

The 600 can get 20 in the city.

Also there is a whole hell of a lot of difference between an LS 600h and a 460. The gas mileage is the least of it. From the leather dash to the longer length, to the hybrid system with a 5.0 liter V8, to the CVT transmission, to the interior refinements in the executive class seating (if applicable). The 600 is a much different car. It looks similar but thats about it.

You can't look at fuel usage as justification for a price of a car. There is a lot more to it. I would imagine AWD vs RWD vs length/weight has much more to do with the fuel economy.

arcteryx

Some good points are raised, I wasn't aware of all the other accouterments (leather dash, nice!) that the h brought, that was what I was wondering. That wasn't very apparent from looking at the site. Still, in my mind, I expect a hybrid to get better mpg than a petrol vehicle.

Personally, once a vehicle gets to a certain amount of HP, I don't really care if it has another 50-100hp. It gets to a point where one has to ask, does it matter? IMO, being able to go 0-60 in 5.3s vs 5.0s is irrelevant, both are very fast and you won't have a problem merging onto the highway. But others may, so to each their own. Appreciate the feedback.

Vansibel

Those v12 (or hybrid drivetrain in the ls600) are not about 0-60 time, it's about getting to speed in an effortless manner, while keeping to a low any intrusion to the occupant. This is what I meant by refinement. Reaching 60 at 3500rpm without any fuss is one thing, doing it in a small displacement/twin turbo engine at 8000rpm while hearing all kind of noise is another. Historically, hybrid have been marketed as eco friendly and this is deeply rooted in the consumer mind, but more and more we are starting to see performance car using hybrid technology (porshe 918, acura nsx, the rumored next nissan GT-R). The mercedes s400 is aimed at fuel economy, because they already have the s600/S65 as their flagship. The ls600 is lexus flagship, and while being an hybrid it don't compete in the same field as the s400 or porshe panamera hybrid.

That being said, the ls460 is certainly sufficient as far as 0-60 and engine refinement goes. But loosing hp when you get awd on a regular ls460 is a bit annoying, while in the ls600 you actually get more power AND awd.

Doublebase

I have an 07 and around town this thing will just sit there and guzzle gas, however get it on the highway and that 8 speed transmission takes over and more than makes up for it. On the highway I can usually get 28 mpg going 67 mph, and at the end of my 600 mile work week I average around 26-27 mpg total.

My wife's honda crv doesn't get that...then again she drives like an animal.

Devh

Very well written. The V8 is a smooth engine but it's not the smoothest of engine designs. I wish Lexus would have chosen a inline 6 because it's smoother but exterior design constrains and horsepower limitations wouldn't have made that possible. When you get up into the ultra luxury class V12 is king not because it has four more cylinders but because it's two inline 6 motors that offers electric motor like smoothness. What Toyota has done is truly remarkable in terms of torque fill smoothing out the limitations of the V8 to possibly go beyond a V12. This technology will be short lived once Panasonic introduces their new battery technology and then we will mostly become electric in about five years. With falling oil prices it might be longer.

SW17LS

This way of thinking is why performance hybrids have never, and likely will never take off in the US. People in the US equate hybrid with fuel economy, other benefits of the hybrid power train don't get through. People just don't compare a LS600h to a V12, or a GS450h to a V8.

Luxofreak

I wish Lexus would offer a LS with a V12 engine. I'd buy it. The S65 and S65 Coupe (former CL-65) are great V12 cars, although not even near as being reliable as a Lexus. A totally newly designed LS-650 for example... Or LS-666 -- V12 Bi Turbo...

jayclapp

I doubt that anyone who buys a $120,000 car gives a crap about fuel economy!

SW17LS

Another flaw in their product plan lol

Vansibel

This would not be the way to go for lexus to stay competitive in this market. If you want a v12 there is already the s600, or the American market struggling audi w12. These car are so much more expensive than than their regular v8 counterpart that I don't think bullet proof reliability would be the sole reason to switch to Lexus. V12 full size car by itself is an extremely niche market. In this class you can't play catch up to stay competitive. Lexus move to use their hybrid drivetrain to reach v12 territory was extremely bold, but at the same time the most logic way for them to enter this market. For the ls600 to stay alive in the coming year Lexus need to perfect the technology so that the next ls would get a considerable boost in hp to be on par with modern turbo v12 while trumping them in emission/fuel economy. Or create a sub hybrid ls with a v6 aimed at the mercedes s400 and that would make more sense in the consumer mind. Regardless, I'm glad I was a part of Lexus history with the ls600 because the future of that class of vehicle is dwindling, especially for Lexus. I don't think Lexus will keep pursuing that class. The demand is so low and the German are already well established. They already had their v12 and they just had to put turbo on them to stay competitive and avoid investing too much in RD while staying alive in this market. Those German brand also put those v12 in their other car/brand to save cost. Lexus on the other end would need a considerable amount of RD money to stay competitive, and I'm not sure it worth it for them. Also they don't have other platform to spread that cost, unlike BMW (760 / rollroyce) and audi (A8 w12 and Bentley). They do use similar technologies in the GS or RX, but in the end the ls600 is a different beast. There is hope though, Lexus just need a well executed plan. Twin turbo v12 would appear as dinosaurs compared to a modern hybrid ls with comparable power while crushing them as far as fuel consumption is concerned. Lexus just need the numbers, and impressive ones. Both in power and fuel economy. When it launched the ls600 had v12 power compared to bmw 760 and audi w12 of the same year while having better fuel consumption. But those German model quickly got upgraded. Today it's as if Lexus want to stretch the platform as long as it can and slowly let it die, and forget it when they develop their next platform. They could get away before by advertising the ls600 as a planet saver and use this desirable image to their advantage over brute force, but by now people have owned the car and they aren't stupid: the ls600 swallow gas and it's far from being a Prius. So they either need to enter the v12 market the proper way: More power, state of the art hybrid drivetrain if they keep using a v8, and a reason for people to buy them over the German counterpart (like power AND fuel economy), or come up with a fuel sipper ls hybrid they could advertise as so and move out from the v12 category. The current ls600 have the power/fuel economy, it just need more of both to keep making sense. It's up to Lexus to decide it it make sense from a profitability standpoint.