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Old 12-20-14, 07:42 AM   #1
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Default Extended oil drain intervals

I know some are doing the extended drains - me being old school - has lead me to be slow joining the party. With all the threads of hesitations after oil changes, the potential of dirt passages in the vvt system and head issues/valve guide noise that may lead to knock sensor activation/timing/hesitation...I've been a little hesitant. But I'm going to give the Amsoil a try and extend out to 10k miles next month and send a sample in to Blackstone Labs in May. I'm curious to see if people are pushing these cars to 10k miles or more on oil changes, and if so, have they ran into any problems?

But a friend of mine just ordered a 50 gallon drum of Amsoil and he is going to give me 9 quarts of it free of charge, to see how an extended drain would do (it's the 6 month/10k mile product that they sell).

http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013P...sallfinal.html

^^^I found this site to be very informative for side by side comparisons of synthetic oil. I usually use Mobil 1 (which by looking at this site is not a bad thing). I was slightly surprised that the Walmart Super Tech looked pretty solid. I found Castrol to be much different than many of the other oils. And like internet rumors tell, it appears that the house brands of Napa synthetic is basically Valvoline. Which I wouldn't necessarily call a good thing because it looks like it has no Molybdenum or Boron additives which coat engine parts and supposedly form a "protective barrier".

I wish Toyota's 0w20 synthetic was on that chart, but it isn't. Right now I'm running the house blend from Napa (because I got it for 3 bucks a quart, but after looking over this chart I'm looking forward to getting it of my engine).
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Old 12-20-14, 11:41 AM   #2
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Interesting topic and as you know I love discussing oil mainly because I feel that spreading oil knowledge will have a rippling effect on keeping the industry straight so we can enjoy a higher quality product. Without that you will get over priced purple oil and nothing else.

In regards to the 10k intervals so many are already doing it and I would wager it's more of the industry norm then the exception. Not surprisingly there hasn't been any causes I have heard of with lubricant failure as the primary cause. It has also been shown on many UOA trends that extended drains have been favorable with not only dispelling certain myths but also going as far as postulating based on the data that extended oil intervals actually slow down the rate of wear.

All oils are different and all engines are different. What I think is best is an oil that is matched to the engines internals with a formulation that doesn't harm any of the metals and seals and at the same time does not cause problems with the emission components.

Amsoil is good if not great oil and I had at one point used it for years. Their oils do not pass the API requirements but that is a good thing because they use far more anti wear additives to protect your engine. However it is a double edged sword. The anti-wear additives they use is zinc and they claim because their oils resistance to volatility (doesn't burn off) it will not harm the catalytic converter. Well unfortunately my catalytic converter in one of my cars did burn out and I didn't attribute it to the oil and when I moved on to another car down the road that car also burned out it's cat. So long story short I stopped using Amsoil.

I then started using German Castrol 0W-30 otherwise known as Euro Castrol which meets A3 specs because it sits a little thicker for a 30wt oil. The oils anti-wear additive is patented and developed by Kyocera. I believe if you are looking for the holy grail of good oil this is it. It has been overly discussed on Bobistheoilguy just because of it's stellar oil UOA. Unfortunately it's just a little too thick for the Lexus.

Another good oil that has shown great oil analysis is surprisingly Pennzoil Platinum. It's UOA is similar to that of the Euro Castrol and it doesn't have all of those exotic wear additives, and it's a group 3 hydro crack oil and not a pure Synthetic in the traditional sense.

Toyota oil has been shown to be really good. It's basically reformulated Mobil one oil to meet their specifications. Except for the Mobil 0W-40 Euro most of there 30wt oils are lacking. Mobil seems to be relying on name recognition rather then competing with other oils on the market and that's why Castrol and Pennzoil has been having fun at their expense by advertising that their oil reduces twice the amount of wear then Mobil one. If it wasn't true Mobil would have taken them to court but as long as the consumer is ignorant they can get away with name recognition.

Last edited by Devh; 12-20-14 at 05:32 PM..
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Old 12-20-14, 12:41 PM   #3
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Yeah, I'm going to give the longer interval a shot. Based off what I've read, the Penzoil ultra is very good for the money, the Mobile 1 is very competitive (and at Walmart it is reasonable), Castrol has a somewhat unique formula, but they put a decent addive package into it, the Quaker State is a reasonably priced oil that basically matches Penzoil Platinum (but not ultra). Amsoil is roundly considered the best - although based off what you wrote - maybe not. I'm going to stay the hell away from Valvoline and Napa/Carquest house brand synthetic, because it is basically Valvoline. And the Lucas synthetic and Royal Purple are on the same level as napa/valvoline synthetic...low in additives and should maybe not go for an extended drain interval.

Surprisingly Walmart's Super Tech is nothing to laugh at, and at $17.00 for a five quart bottle...looks like a great value.

When I change my oil next month, I will be going on my first ever 10k mile change interval.

Last edited by Doublebase; 12-20-14 at 12:44 PM..
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Old 12-20-14, 02:44 PM   #4
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Yeah, I'm going to give the longer interval a shot. Based off what I've read, the Penzoil ultra is very good for the money, the Mobile 1 is very competitive (and at Walmart it is reasonable), Castrol has a somewhat unique formula, but they put a decent addive package into it, the Quaker State is a reasonably priced oil that basically matches Penzoil Platinum (but not ultra). Amsoil is roundly considered the best - although based off what you wrote - maybe not. I'm going to stay the hell away from Valvoline and Napa/Carquest house brand synthetic, because it is basically Valvoline. And the Lucas synthetic and Royal Purple are on the same level as napa/valvoline synthetic...low in additives and should maybe not go for an extended drain interval.

Surprisingly Walmart's Super Tech is nothing to laugh at, and at $17.00 for a five quart bottle...looks like a great value.

When I change my oil next month, I will be going on my first ever 10k mile change interval.
I agree with everything you wrote except two points.
Mobil one 30wt and 20wt oils are behind the times. I'm not saying it would be necessary bad for your engine but their formulations are terribly lacking. It's so bad that even Toyota doesn't use it and had Mobil One reformulated the oil to their specifications. If it was a minor tweak here and there then an argument could be made but just look at how much more anti-wear metals they added to the formulation. This tells me that Mobil one is not good enough for Toyota.

Some of the other re-branded oils may or may not be good and they may not use the same supplier. Lets say Walmart branded oil is good stuff and you use it with confidence, but then next year Walmart decides to go with another supplier for logistical reasons not necessarily a cost cutting one then you will not know what you are getting. This happens a lot with re-branded oil.
With Toyota oil I'm guarantied for the most part that they formulate their oil for my engine and are not necessarily going to skimp out like BMW did with their oil which is made by Castrol and A3 rated but falls short because it's hydrocrack unlike the Euro Castrol.

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Old 12-20-14, 03:07 PM   #5
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I agree with everything you wrote except two points.
Mobil one 30wt oil is behind the times. I'm not saying it would be necessary bad for your engine but their formulations are terribly lacking. It's so bad that even Toyota doesn't use it and had Mobil One reformulated the oil to their specifications. If it was a minor tweak here and there then an argument could be made but just look at how much more anti-wear metals they added to the formulation. This tells me that Mobil one is not good enough for Toyota.

Some of the other re-branded oils may or may not be good and they may not use the same supplier. Lets say Walmart branded oil is good stuff and you use it with confidence, but then next year Walmart decides to go with another supplier for logistical reasons not necessarily a cost cutting one then you will not know what you are getting. This happens a lot with re-branded oil.
With Toyota oil I'm guarantied for the most part that they formulate their oil for my engine and are not necessarily going to skimp out like BMW did with their oil which is made by Castrol and A3 rated but falls short because it's hydrocrack unlike the Euro Castrol.
Interesting. What you say makes sense regarding the walmart brand stuff, although it is a pretty well researched oil that is scrutinized as much as any oil I've read about on the internet. Bob's the oil guy has threads about it a mile long, but I guess they could change the formula/supplier and it would maybe take a while before anyone realized it. Whereas the major brands couldn't pull those things on the consumer quite as quickly.

And I've read some positive things about Mobile 1...nothing ground breaking, but generally it's considered to be pretty competitive. And technically the only thing I really know about it - and it's not much, believe me - is what I saw from the chart I posted, which shows it's additive package is pretty decent in terms of what everyone else uses. I don't know what Toyota adds in terms of additives...weather it be more boron or a better moly package. It sounds like you do...let me know what it is...I find this stuff interesting.

Right now I have 3k miles on Carquest synthetic, which is considered to be basically Valvoline syntec. Now that didn't worry me at all before, but after looking at that chart, it sure does now. I imagine I should be safe going 5k miles on it, but I don't rust it to go any further.
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Old 12-20-14, 03:52 PM   #6
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Interesting. What you say makes sense regarding the walmart brand stuff, although it is a pretty well researched oil that is scrutinized as much as any oil I've read about on the internet. Bob's the oil guy has threads about it a mile long, but I guess they could change the formula/supplier and it would maybe take a while before anyone realized it. Whereas the major brands couldn't pull those things on the consumer quite as quickly.

And I've read some positive things about Mobile 1...nothing ground breaking, but generally it's considered to be pretty competitive. And technically the only thing I really know about it - and it's not much, believe me - is what I saw from the chart I posted, which shows it's additive package is pretty decent in terms of what everyone else uses. I don't know what Toyota adds in terms of additives...weather it be more boron or a better moly package. It sounds like you do...let me know what it is...I find this stuff interesting.

Right now I have 3k miles on Carquest synthetic, which is considered to be basically Valvoline syntec. Now that didn't worry me at all before, but after looking at that chart, it sure does now. I imagine I should be safe going 5k miles on it, but I don't rust it to go any further.
From what I read in regard to the virgin oil analysis of Toyota oil it seems to have a lot of Moly and less magnesium then Mobil one. This might jive much better for the internal components that Toyota uses for their engines. It also tells me that without these anti-wear additives you can do some damage using Mobil one oil in the 0W-20 grade.
Just a theory but I think Toyota had to meet the infamous CAFE standards like all manufactures and need to squeeze more estimated millage but they also had the foresight to know that the oil will not hold up to the abuse until it is heavily formulated with anti-wear additives.
It might be an industries dirty little secrete that only Toyota is addressing.
Still it's riddled in speculation but on the whole very telling.

Just like water being used instead of Gatorade in the Gatorade bin so has the Mobil one illusion on the race track. The team will have Mobil one written everywhere but what is being used in the race car maybe entirely different. When Castrol and Pennzoil can make bold claims against Mobil one in their advertising without any retribution it's very telling considering Mobil has taken Castrol to court in the past for misleading claims.
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Old 12-20-14, 06:28 PM   #7
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From what I read in regard to the virgin oil analysis of Toyota oil it seems to have a lot of Moly and less magnesium then Mobil one. This might jive much better for the internal components that Toyota uses for their engines. It also tells me that without these anti-wear additives you can do some damage using Mobil one oil in the 0W-20 grade.
Just a theory but I think Toyota had to meet the infamous CAFE standards like all manufactures and need to squeeze more estimated millage but they also had the foresight to know that the oil will not hold up to the abuse until it is heavily formulated with anti-wear additives.
It might be an industries dirty little secrete that only Toyota is addressing.
Still it's riddled in speculation but on the whole very telling.

Just like water being used instead of Gatorade in the Gatorade bin so has the Mobil one illusion on the race track. The team will have Mobil one written everywhere but what is being used in the race car maybe entirely different. When Castrol and Pennzoil can make bold claims against Mobil one in their advertising without any retribution it's very telling considering Mobil has taken Castrol to court in the past for misleading claims.
Ok thanks. I didn't realize toyota had a decent moly package in it, I imagine that is pricey as far as additives go. The Carquest junk I have in my car right now has almost zero for moly additive and almost zero for boron additive. Too me that is unacceptable, but as bad as that is, at least it's cheap. Lucas and Royal purple don't put any moly or boron in it either, and they charge three times as much per quart.
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Old 12-20-14, 07:00 PM   #8
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Ok thanks. I didn't realize toyota had a decent moly package in it, I imagine that is pricey as far as additives go. The Carquest junk I have in my car right now has almost zero for moly additive and almost zero for boron additive. Too me that is unacceptable, but as bad as that is, at least it's cheap. Lucas and Royal purple don't put any moly or boron in it either, and they charge three times as much per quart.
The other oil manufactures may use a different additives not necessary moly. Who is to say which formulation is better and which additives are better as it's probably left to the formulator.
The formulators could probably make a great oil but I think they are govern by cost, fuel efficiency, and various approved manufacture certifications/ associate standards like API. I also think they see how much they can get away with to please share holders.

Toyota on the whole has been pretty honest about their quality standard. Their philosophy is a long term investment with the customer to keep buying their products probably has a lot to do with the quality for all of their parts. It makes me wonder given the low cost of their own fluids and filters if they actually subsidize our ownership.

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Old 12-21-14, 07:01 AM   #9
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Devh, what are you paying for toyota synthetic? My next change is going to be with the Amsoil, but that's only because my buddy said to me...I just bought 1200 bucks worth of Amsoil in a drum, the rep came out and said you can go at least 10k miles with it, do you want 8-9 quarts? I said, sure what do I owe you? He said nothing, I'll use you as a test subject. I guess the factory rep that sold it to him has gone 150k miles on Amsoil's higher end oil in his Mercedes van, by just changing the filter and doing top offs (it's part of his sales gimmick).

I personally want to give the Toyota synthetic a try.
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Old 12-21-14, 08:49 AM   #10
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Devh, what are you paying for toyota synthetic? ..............

I personally want to give the Toyota synthetic a try.
I realize you're asking Devh and not me, but I'll just chime in that my Toyota dealer sells their 0W20 synth for $5/liter in bulk... I just have to bring in my own jugs. Otherwise they charge $6 or so per liter bottle. Convert this to U.S. dollars and quarts and it's probably cheaper down your way.

I also see 12 qt cases going on Ebay for 67 dollars right now.
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Old 12-21-14, 08:56 AM   #11
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I realize you're asking Devh and not me, but I'll just chime in that my Toyota dealer sells their 0W20 synth for $5/liter in bulk... I just have to bring in my own jugs. Otherwise they charge $6 or so per liter bottle. Convert this to U.S. dollars and quarts and it's probably cheaper down your way.

I also see 12 qt cases going on Ebay for 67 dollars right now.
Five bucks a quart sounds great...I'd do that in a heartbeat. Let me ask you this...do you go 10k miles between changes on the toyota synthetic?

I have looked on eBay and the only problem is I'd have to pay for shipping. I'm going to look around locally...I might be able to get it at a discount, I just never really considered looking into it until now. Everything I've read about the oil seems to be outstanding, but price is something I generally factor into these equations.
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Old 12-21-14, 09:50 AM   #12
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The only thing I would say about buying oil on eBay is I would have it tested by Blackstone BEFORE you put it in your engine. It wouldn't surprise me if 50% of the quart was vegetable oil!
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Old 12-21-14, 10:38 AM   #13
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The only thing I would say about buying oil on eBay is I would have it tested by Blackstone BEFORE you put it in your engine. It wouldn't surprise me if 50% of the quart was vegetable oil!
I purchased a case on Amazon from a reputable seller and it worked out to be $5.50 a quart.
Toyota synthetic oil is relatively cheap especially being a group 4 which is the real deal not hydrocrack.
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Old 12-21-14, 10:46 AM   #14
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The only thing I would say about buying oil on eBay is I would have it tested by Blackstone BEFORE you put it in your engine. It wouldn't surprise me if 50% of the quart was vegetable oil!
Honestly I'd be more worried going to the dealer and having them pump it from their bulk supply. You'd be amazed what comes out of some of those bulk supplies...I'd be willing to bet a few places are pumping dino oil and calling it synthetic.
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Old 12-21-14, 10:46 AM   #15
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Devh, what are you paying for toyota synthetic? My next change is going to be with the Amsoil, but that's only because my buddy said to me...I just bought 1200 bucks worth of Amsoil in a drum, the rep came out and said you can go at least 10k miles with it, do you want 8-9 quarts? I said, sure what do I owe you? He said nothing, I'll use you as a test subject. I guess the factory rep that sold it to him has gone 150k miles on Amsoil's higher end oil in his Mercedes van, by just changing the filter and doing top offs (it's part of his sales gimmick).

I personally want to give the Toyota synthetic a try.
My Amsoil rep had a van that has over 350k miles with extended oil drains that he uses to sell oil.

Like I said before Amsoil is good oil however I cant stand their multi marketing approach to selling oil as well as gimmicky vitamin supplements. They do get their filters from Wix and Baldwin which tells me they know their costumers expect the highest quality.
I like the fact that Amsoil acknowledged the German Castrol as being superior oil then theirs and went back and re-formulated to be on par.
Off the shelf oils have improved dramatically over the last 10 years and a lot of it has to do with the demands of some of these newer cars. Even conventional oil has improved.
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