thelawnet

Just done a five mile journey at urban speeds (20-40mph). I find that any kind of unevenness in the road is distinctly felt inside the car. Things like drain covers. I'm not sure if this is normal or a fault?

The car is a new to me 07 ls460 with air suspension, 19" wheels and fairly new Dunlop Sport tyres. I've set the car to comfort mode.

I'm thinking that I should get the suspension checked out, so if there is something wrong hopefully I can get the dealer to rectify it now. Are there any particular things to check?

Doublebase

Mine kind of does the same thing, for instance if there is some sort of unevenness my car tends to track in that direction, I imagine if I wasn't paying attention things could get dicey. I've grown used to it, but it took me a while.

I think it's normal and I just chalked it up to the width of the wheels, but I don't know.

Devh

I don't have the air suspension however I do have the 19" wheels.
I do not have any tramlining or any kind of unsettling of the car over undulations when I have taken deliver of the car last year with the stock Bridgestone and after a tire upgrade to newer Bridgestone poll position A/S which actually improved the steering around turns.
I know exactly what unevenness is and I have felt it on difference cars that had stiff suspensions or bad alignments. In most cases a good alignment will fix the issue if the toe is out of specification in the front or rear.
The car might track straight but once it hits the crowning of the road or any bumps it will not hold steady.
An alignment is probably the best course of action.

Doublebase

How are these cars to align? Do you need a scan tool to reset the steering angle sensor? Or if it's just a little off on the toe setting can you avoid reprogramming the sensor?

Devh

I don't know but I'm sure that the alignment is low tech that there are just the usual toe angle adjustments you find on most cars. There is no camber or caster adjustments which is understandable. The adjustment is most likely done at the tie rod ends in the front and the trailing arms in the rear. Any Hunter alignment machine can do this however I have found that factory tolerances and those that are in the Hunter machines database are different which is disappointing and I'm also afraid the dealer probably uses these loose tolerances from the machine as well.

If we can find the factory tolerances for alignment we can give that to the operator and get a good from factory alignment. The Hunter database is a joke and will only correct gross alignment changes which is not good enough in my opinion. Most mechanics that operate the alignment machine don't understand alignments and they are only interested if the wheels are in the green which is mostly on the edge of being misaligned.
Also it's a good thing to get the before and after alignment measurements as it will be telling if the car has been in a previous accident especially if the caster is off.

thelawnet

I got my wheels aligned at a local tyre place, but they only did the fronts because apparently the rear bolt was jammed so they didn't want to break it as they don't have replacement bolts. I think they just put the alignments into the green, I don't think it was very scientific.

Devh

In order to give any car a good alignment, the operator needs to understand alignment theory and many that I have aligned my other car do not and just check to see if the car is in the green and if not they will tip one of the wheels a lot more the other so that the alignment is in this loose tolerance but most likely out of whack. I will give them my specifications and then get everything evened up especially on the front. This process is not too much longer and it's dialing in the numbers rather then the color.

If your rear toe bolt was stuck and they couldn't aligned it, then that could be the source of the problem. I would get a new bolt and have them removing the old one with a impact wrench.
I would hate to think they were just too lazy to get out the torch.

thelawnet

Not sure where to get the tight numbers from.

I think most wheel alignment places don't really know what they are doing. I might try these guys http://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/tec...lalignment.php

About an hour away though...l

Devh

The specifications is most probably in the service manual under suspension.
I think the resource online is $20 a day to go though the manual.
If you find the specifications please post them here for everyone's benefit and I will do the same.

Devh

I just checked out the site and I'm impressed with the fact that they know what their are writing about and it's a great guide for any consumer to understand what is involved.

Call them first and express your concerns about getting the factory specifications and not the loose tolerances from what is used on the machine.
If they have access to the factory numbers and you get your alignment done by them could you kindly post your before and after alignment numbers.
They seem like the guys I would use.

Doublebase

Interesting, I never heard, or thought to question hunter alignment specs. I guess you could be right, I just never gave it any thought because most any place uses the hunter alignment machines as they are industry top notch (and incredible expensive to purchase new).

I'll throw mine on the rack and see if the toe is off...better to do it now before the bolts get rusted in the bushings in the back and I can't do anything without replacing the components back there. Front tie rods usually aren't a problem once you heat up the jam nuts.

Devh

From what I was told by a tech long ago when I asked, I was told apparently there are two types of specifications. One specification is not as tight because it is the maximum allowable variance, say if your car was in an accident. Then there is the factory specification which is the numbers they use at the factory to give its characteristic ride.
In my other Toyota I found the factory specs in the service manual and compared it to the hunters which can be all over the pace as long as it's in the green and the car tracks straight.
I'm sure most people would be numb to it and that's why it's never questioned even when the car does odd things like follow the crown of the road.
I remember one time driving back from Atlantic City in a friends car which had too much play in the steering wheel to be dangerous but the owner thought it was normal.

thelawnet

I had a look in the Lexus manual for the wheel alignment procedure/data:

For a LS460/600h

* Check tyre runout using dial indicator. 1mm or less is standard
* Measure vehicle height:
A: Ground clearance of front wheel center
B: Ground clearance of front center position of front suspension lower No. 2 arm assembly front bush installation
C: Ground clearance of pit center of the attachment rear suspension arm
D: Ground clearance of rear wheel center

2WD
A-B = 91mm (without air suspension), 98mm with air suspension (18" or 19" wheel), 108mm with sports package
D-C = 76mm (without air suspension), 93mm with air suspension (18" or 19" wheel), 103mm with sports package

AWD (including LS600h)
A-B=146mm without sports package, 156mm with
C-D = 83mm without sports package, 93mm with


Before inspecting the wheel alignment, adjust the vehicle height to the specified value.

4) Inspect toe-in. Total toe-in (back minus front) should be 0 plus or minus 2mm, on the air, and 1mm plus or minus 2mm on the coil suspension. If toe-in is not within the specified range, adjust it at the rack ends.

For 2014 models with or without air suspension:
A + B: 0°00' +/-10' (0.00°+/-0.16°)
C - D: 0 +/-2 mm (0 +/-0.08 in.)

5. Adjust toe-in and calibrate Variable Gear Ratio Steering System.
VGRS should be calibrated if the steering wheel is still off-center after completing the steering angle sensor initialization.

6. Inspect wheel angle. Turn wheel fully to the left and right and measure the angle between them.
The angle between the two should be: 41°45' measured inside the wheel on 18" coils, 40°46' on 19" coils, 41°37' on 18" air, 40°38' on 19" air for the 460. 600h 38°02' +/-2°

For 2014 models:

Coil suspension 18 in. 41°20' +/-2°(41.33°+/-2°)
Coil suspension 19 in. 40°23' +/-2°(40.38°+/-2°)
Air suspension 18 in. 41°10' +/-2°(41.17°+/-2°)
Air suspension 19 in. 40°13' +/-2°(40.22°+/-2°)
Sports Package 39°57' +/-2°(39.95°+/-2°)

4WD: 38°02' +/-2°, or sports package 37°15' +/-2°

7. Inspect camber, caster and steering axis inclination.
2WD:
* Camber inclination on coils should be -0°17' +/-45' , with 30' (0.50°) left-right error or less
* Camber inclination on air should be -0°26' +/-45' , with 30' (0.50°) left-right error or less
*Camber on sports package should be -0°39' +/-45'
* Caster inclination on coils should be 6°37' +/-45' with 45' left-right error or less
* Caster inclination on air should be 7°1' +/-45' with 45' left-right error or less
* Caster on sports 7°21' +/-45'
* Steering axis inclination on coils should be 9°7' +/-45' with 30' left-right error or less
* Steering axis inclination on air should be 9°18' +/-45' with 30' left-right error or less
* Steering axis sports 9°44' +/-45'

4WD (including ls600h) non-sport:
* Camber -0°40' +/-45'
* Caster 4°58' +/-45'
* Steering axis 9°41' +/-45' (pre August 2012)
* Steering axis 8°54' +/-45' (post 2012)

4WD (including ls600h) sport package:
* Camber -0°55' +/-45'
* Caster 5°20' +/-45'
* Steering axis 9°13' +/-45'

8. Adjust camber/caster by moving front suspension member as needed (2WD) or using the cams (AWD). For AWD cars adjust camber/caster BEFORE checking/adjusting toe-in. For 2WD, afterwards.

9. Then check front suspension parts are within spec

For the-rear:
Toe-in = 3 +/-2 mm
Toe angle 0°15' +/-10' (0.25°+/-0.16°)

Camber: coils: -1°38' +/-45' left-right error 30' or less
Camber: air: -1°50' +/-45' left-right error 30' or less
Camber: air 4WD 460 -1°41' +/-45'
Camber: air 4WD 600 -1°45' +/-45'
Camber: sports package -1°59' +/-45'

Devh

A few thoughts and thanks for posting the data. If anyone else has some insight please contribute because I might be speculating wildly.

The ground clearance data is a good way to check any suspension sag which is useful especially in the diagnoses of the air suspension. I imagine that if the air suspension is off it will effect toe and camber.

Number 4 is used for the variance for the four wheel alignment so the car tracks straight and it appears that it's based on the overall steering range from left to right which then gets centered and then adjusted in number 6.

Number 5 seems to be another way to recalibrate the steering wheel to make it straight after the alignment. I think this can be avoided if you have something to hold the steering wheel from moving while the adjustments are being made.

I wish number 8 would give us toe numbers for the front but apparently it seems that it's based on over all travel from left to right and this is where I'm stuck.
For the rear it makes sense to have toe in for stability.

thelawnet

Here for comparison is what the local tyre people's machine told me:

Acceptable range for front camber -1°00' up to 0°30 (should be -1°11' to 0°21', so they are outside spec)
Acceptable range for front toe -0°03' up to 0°09'
Total front toe -0°06' up to 0°18' should be -0°10' up to 0°10', so they are wrong)
Steer ahead -0°03' to 0°03'

Rear:
camber -2°05 to -1°05' (actually -2°35 to -1°05 so they are tighter than needed)
toe 0°03' to 0°15'
Total rear toe 0°06' to 0°30' (should be 0°5' to 0°25', so they are outside spec)

And my actual measurements
Front camber -0°13', -0°33'
Rear camber-1°49', -1°26'
Front caster - not measured
Front Toe -0°05' -0°04' (both 'in the red')
Rear Toe 0°08' -0°05' (the right 'in the red')
Steer ahead -0°01'
Thrust angle 0°06'

So it looks like my front camber had 20' left-right error (max 30'), which is ok, and so was the camber, which was +13' and -7' respectively, against a max variance of (45'). And my front toe was also ok, at -9' total, against a max of -10'. My rear camber had 23' left-right error (max 30') - ok, and out respectively 1' and 24' from spec - both ok. My rear toe was out by 7' on the left, and 20' on the right.

They only adjusted the front toe, not the camber or rear toe. New values were:

Front toe: 0°03', 0°02'

I've just looked at the print-out and it actually says '2003.8-2006 (UCF30) at the top, so they've actually done the toe adjustment based on the LS430, so they charged me to adjust something that didn't need adjusting.