sealed transmission? lifetime ATF fluid? bollocks!!
10-12-14, 10:40 PM
#16
Lexus Test Driver
Whatever conclusion you come to be it good or bad I'd make that the last oil change. Every transmission shop I talked to doesn't recommend transmission fluid change in high mileage vehicles. Many of the shops refuse to do it. I found out the hard way when I changed the oil at 329k in my Toyota Sienna and 300 miles later it went kaput. Talking to them afterwards ALL the shops told me they would have refused to change it and would have told me not to. Also none will do a "power flush". They have seen more post flush failures of one way check valves and line doing this and no longer offer it. The way you did it by pour & drain method and repeating that cycle several times over the course of several months is the best way IF you have to. Otherwise leave it be.
10-13-14, 07:05 AM
#17
10-13-14, 07:36 AM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
Well, yes, this is a generally applicable rule if the fluid has never been changed. The problem is all of the gunk that accumulated over 100,000, 200,000 or 300,000 miles gets disturbed and can plug up solenoids, check valves, etc. If the fluid has been changed regularly, there should be no gunk to disturb. (Or so sayeth conventional wisdom!)
10-13-14, 07:53 AM
#19
Fair enough. Soooooo.....if you ran 20k miles on your engine oil and you sent a sample for analysis that said there was nothing abnormal in your sample, would you still change the oil?
And then there's still the issue of why ONLY THE U.S. market calls the fluid "lifetime". That alone should raise at least one eyebrow. And as said before, the transmission is NOT sealed. I don't know why so many continue to call it that. It has gaskets, filters and drain and fill plugs.
And then there's still the issue of why ONLY THE U.S. market calls the fluid "lifetime". That alone should raise at least one eyebrow. And as said before, the transmission is NOT sealed. I don't know why so many continue to call it that. It has gaskets, filters and drain and fill plugs.
I also wonder why this only applies to US cars. I would love know Lexus' answer to that.
The "sealed" term is used to describe transmissions which do not have an open (when dipstick is removed) fill pipe allowing air to enter the unit. I know at least Jaguar also uses the term. I think the term is used just like in sealed batteries, they are not really sealed, but the cells are not exposed to air by removing caps.
10-13-14, 08:13 AM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
But the Blackstone analysis linked earlier, DID note that the viscosity had dropped.....and obviously would continue to do so. That alone should be reason enough to change out the fluid.
Marketing. I have no doubt. I will not be the least bit surprised if Lexus changes it's view on this. Many manufacturers have ceased calling their trannys "lifetime fill".
This might be why and supports the marketing argument:
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/mini-...ry?id=20579484
I also wonder why this only applies to US cars. I would love know Lexus' answer to that.
This might be why and supports the marketing argument:
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/mini-...ry?id=20579484
10-13-14, 08:44 AM
#21
Many years ago I had the same thing happen to me with a high mileage company car (Chevy Citation) I was driving. Shortly after having the fluid changed, the transmission failed. I subsequently heard from others this was not unusual.
10-13-14, 09:02 AM
#22
Pole Position
Well I will start off saying that any owner should do what they feel comfortable with doing. If you feel your transmission fluid should be changed every 50K or 100K or whatever mileage, then by all means do it. However, if you have not stressed your transmission by towing a trailer or other abnormal activity, or have not experienced any deterioration in performance, then I would not touch it.
The first time I had ever heard of a sealed transmission is when I bought my wife's 2001 Jaguar in March of that year. The car is almost 14 years old and has 150K miles on it. The transmission runs like the day we bought it. And lest you think it has been babied, my wife is tough on everything, the transmission, the brakes the suspension, you name it, she drives it hard.
My LS has 77K and I have no problem with my transmission. I have no intention of changing the ATF unless I have some reason to do so.
When I read the lab report from the link posted above, I see no problem with the ATF. When you look under properties, all the values are within the range that they should be. So if the properties of the fluid meet the specs, why would it be bad? I understand that it may look bad, but your transmission doesn't run on looks.
I have to go along with williakz's post , but anyone should do what they are comfortable with. The only caveat is if you do change your ATF, make sure you follow all the procedures specified by Lexus.
The first time I had ever heard of a sealed transmission is when I bought my wife's 2001 Jaguar in March of that year. The car is almost 14 years old and has 150K miles on it. The transmission runs like the day we bought it. And lest you think it has been babied, my wife is tough on everything, the transmission, the brakes the suspension, you name it, she drives it hard.
My LS has 77K and I have no problem with my transmission. I have no intention of changing the ATF unless I have some reason to do so.
When I read the lab report from the link posted above, I see no problem with the ATF. When you look under properties, all the values are within the range that they should be. So if the properties of the fluid meet the specs, why would it be bad? I understand that it may look bad, but your transmission doesn't run on looks.
I have to go along with williakz's post , but anyone should do what they are comfortable with. The only caveat is if you do change your ATF, make sure you follow all the procedures specified by Lexus.
I will say this though regarding your transmission, if you did a simple drain and refill maybe once a year on that thing, I'd be willing to bet it will last a lot longer. Now if you're planning on getting rid of it at 100-130k, then yeah...who cares? But I'll tell you that I have never seen a transmission have nothing but longer life by doing a simple drain and refill every year. You're only getting a few quarts out, it doesn't cost much, it doesn't take a lot of time and more importantly it doesn't "shock" the system of that transmission, it just ensures that you are adding some new additives and detergents to what is already probably worn out fluid. It's a gradual and safe procedure.
These transmissions are 8 speeds...they are very very expensive to replace. In other countries they advise changing the fluid out every 50k miles. I think you certainly do have some good points and I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but I seriously think that if you want this car for the long hall, you might want to drain and refill.
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CamelKool (01-24-21)
10-13-14, 10:56 AM
#23
I certainly agree that you can do whatever you want with your car, and believe me everyone is so different regarding cars that it's a bit hilarious.
I will say this though regarding your transmission, if you did a simple drain and refill maybe once a year on that thing, I'd be willing to bet it will last a lot longer. Now if you're planning on getting rid of it at 100-130k, then yeah...who cares? But I'll tell you that I have never seen a transmission have nothing but longer life by doing a simple drain and refill every year. You're only getting a few quarts out, it doesn't cost much, it doesn't take a lot of time and more importantly it doesn't "shock" the system of that transmission, it just ensures that you are adding some new additives and detergents to what is already probably worn out fluid. It's a gradual and safe procedure.
These transmissions are 8 speeds...they are very very expensive to replace. In other countries they advise changing the fluid out every 50k miles. I think you certainly do have some good points and I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but I seriously think that if you want this car for the long hall, you might want to drain and refill.
I will say this though regarding your transmission, if you did a simple drain and refill maybe once a year on that thing, I'd be willing to bet it will last a lot longer. Now if you're planning on getting rid of it at 100-130k, then yeah...who cares? But I'll tell you that I have never seen a transmission have nothing but longer life by doing a simple drain and refill every year. You're only getting a few quarts out, it doesn't cost much, it doesn't take a lot of time and more importantly it doesn't "shock" the system of that transmission, it just ensures that you are adding some new additives and detergents to what is already probably worn out fluid. It's a gradual and safe procedure.
These transmissions are 8 speeds...they are very very expensive to replace. In other countries they advise changing the fluid out every 50k miles. I think you certainly do have some good points and I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but I seriously think that if you want this car for the long hall, you might want to drain and refill.
In fact I have seen a vehicle with higher millage become written off for other issues like burning oil or a major malfunction that it's higher then normal millage made the car not worth the expense of repair. When these cars get up in there in miles all of the components end up ageing together so even if your transmission is running in tip top shape the rest of the car is not.
I have some family members that still own or had LS vehicles, LS400, Ls430 and ES300 that never had the transmission fluid replaced and all these cars crossed the 150k millage mark. There is even a late 90s Toyota Avalon that has over 230k miles that was poorly maintained all of its life, It was a weak drive and the transmission was worn but it still ran great.
I think you really need to site enough examples of high millage LS400s transmissions failing due to not having the transmission serviced as the major malfunction that put it out of it's misery.
If you can get 200k from a car you are doing well enough not to be obsessed with the transmission.
Last edited by Devh; 10-13-14 at 10:59 AM.
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Parrokeete (10-12-21)
10-13-14, 11:06 AM
#24
I had a Citation. It was my first car that was a hand me down. As the car got older and the miles accumulated it was neglected and the transmission fluid was never changed. I abused the car and eventually sold it to a friends cousin for $500 80s dollars. It was such a junkier that I thought it might not last as long but to my surprise my friend sold it two years later for $800.
10-13-14, 11:15 AM
#25
You make a good argument and an argument can be made that it will last longer but I have never heard of a modern automatic transmission since the 90s failing well above 100k that never had it's fluid changed and I have seen many of them.
In fact I have seen a vehicle with higher millage become written off for other issues like burning oil or a major malfunction that it's higher then normal millage made the car not worth the expense of repair. When these cars get up in there in miles all of the components end up ageing together so even if your transmission is running in tip top shape the rest of the car is not.
I have some family members that still own or had LS vehicles, LS400, Ls430 and ES300 that never had the transmission fluid replaced and all these cars crossed the 150k millage mark. There is even a late 90s Toyota Avalon that has over 230k miles that was poorly maintained all of its life, It was a weak drive and the transmission was worn but it still ran great.
I think you really need to site enough examples of high millage LS400s transmissions failing due to not having the transmission serviced as the major malfunction that put it out of it's misery.
If you can get 200k from a car you are doing well enough not to be obsessed with the transmission.
In fact I have seen a vehicle with higher millage become written off for other issues like burning oil or a major malfunction that it's higher then normal millage made the car not worth the expense of repair. When these cars get up in there in miles all of the components end up ageing together so even if your transmission is running in tip top shape the rest of the car is not.
I have some family members that still own or had LS vehicles, LS400, Ls430 and ES300 that never had the transmission fluid replaced and all these cars crossed the 150k millage mark. There is even a late 90s Toyota Avalon that has over 230k miles that was poorly maintained all of its life, It was a weak drive and the transmission was worn but it still ran great.
I think you really need to site enough examples of high millage LS400s transmissions failing due to not having the transmission serviced as the major malfunction that put it out of it's misery.
If you can get 200k from a car you are doing well enough not to be obsessed with the transmission.
10-13-14, 11:31 AM
#26
Actually, 200,000 miles is nothing for a car if it's taken care of. By that I mean all fluids changed regularly and the car garaged. I currently have a '91 Lincoln Mark VII that has 198K on the odometer and runs like the day I bought it (new). I sold my '76 Vett and '69 Grand Prix a few years ago that both had over 250K. All 3 of these cars had their original drive train.
If you are an enthusiast I can under stand the argument of keeping the car in top shape for sentimental or collector value but the reality is no one else is and all cars meet their fate at the salvage yard.
10-13-14, 02:06 PM
#27
Pole Position
You make a good argument and an argument can be made that it will last longer but I have never heard of a modern automatic transmission since the 90s failing well above 100k that never had it's fluid changed and I have seen many of them.
In fact I have seen a vehicle with higher millage become written off for other issues like burning oil or a major malfunction that it's higher then normal millage made the car not worth the expense of repair. When these cars get up in there in miles all of the components end up ageing together so even if your transmission is running in tip top shape the rest of the car is not.
I have some family members that still own or had LS vehicles, LS400, Ls430 and ES300 that never had the transmission fluid replaced and all these cars crossed the 150k millage mark. There is even a late 90s Toyota Avalon that has over 230k miles that was poorly maintained all of its life, It was a weak drive and the transmission was worn but it still ran great.
I think you really need to site enough examples of high millage LS400s transmissions failing due to not having the transmission serviced as the major malfunction that put it out of it's misery.
If you can get 200k from a car you are doing well enough not to be obsessed with the transmission.
In fact I have seen a vehicle with higher millage become written off for other issues like burning oil or a major malfunction that it's higher then normal millage made the car not worth the expense of repair. When these cars get up in there in miles all of the components end up ageing together so even if your transmission is running in tip top shape the rest of the car is not.
I have some family members that still own or had LS vehicles, LS400, Ls430 and ES300 that never had the transmission fluid replaced and all these cars crossed the 150k millage mark. There is even a late 90s Toyota Avalon that has over 230k miles that was poorly maintained all of its life, It was a weak drive and the transmission was worn but it still ran great.
I think you really need to site enough examples of high millage LS400s transmissions failing due to not having the transmission serviced as the major malfunction that put it out of it's misery.
If you can get 200k from a car you are doing well enough not to be obsessed with the transmission.
So on one hand I think you are right, former Toyota transmissions don't seem to be mechanically flawed and perhaps you can get away with not servicing them, but this LS 460 transmission is not your typical toyota tranny...who knows what the long term performance of the thing will be? I have talked to lexus techs that have told me they would change the fluid between 75-100k...that they have no faith in a tranny fluid that says "lifetime". I believe them.
10-13-14, 02:08 PM
#28
Pole Position
A lot of it depends on the car and how it was treated. Most road going cars and not babied and will show their age because of owner neglect. What ever the reason most people do not keep their cars past 100k miles and it's even sooner now with people flipping cars as they cross their own milestones in their life and the priorities change. Cars change as well which motivates people to sell their old one out of boredom. I would like it if people were less wasteful and kept their cars for the full service life but that's not happening with low interest rates and aggressive leasing programs.
If you are an enthusiast I can under stand the argument of keeping the car in top shape for sentimental or collector value but the reality is no one else is and all cars meet their fate at the salvage yard.
If you are an enthusiast I can under stand the argument of keeping the car in top shape for sentimental or collector value but the reality is no one else is and all cars meet their fate at the salvage yard.
10-13-14, 02:37 PM
#29
You make good points too, and I'd tend to agree except I'm living proof that changing the tranny fluid can help even a flawed designed transmission. Google honda accord transmission, there is so much bad stuff to read about them it will make your eyes bleed. I have that car, I have that transmission - I do a drain and refill every 20k miles on it...it has 300k miles. Those transmissions are known to break between 40-120k miles. Another good example is the Chrysler transmissions in their mid size cars from 2002-2007, those transmissions won't last 70k without changing the fluid...the whole valve body will get blocked, heat up, warp and you'll be driving home in limp mode (2nd gear).
So on one hand I think you are right, former Toyota transmissions don't seem to be mechanically flawed and perhaps you can get away with not servicing them, but this LS 460 transmission is not your typical toyota tranny...who knows what the long term performance of the thing will be? I have talked to lexus techs that have told me they would change the fluid between 75-100k...that they have no faith in a tranny fluid that says "lifetime". I believe them.
So on one hand I think you are right, former Toyota transmissions don't seem to be mechanically flawed and perhaps you can get away with not servicing them, but this LS 460 transmission is not your typical toyota tranny...who knows what the long term performance of the thing will be? I have talked to lexus techs that have told me they would change the fluid between 75-100k...that they have no faith in a tranny fluid that says "lifetime". I believe them.
I will be changing the transmission fluid because 120k miles is the specified service interval from Honda. I will also be selling it not because it has given me any trouble but because it's a little dated and still worth something in the open market for a dependable car.
Toyota makes solid auto transmissions and I never seen one of them go down. Unfortunately Toyotas newer manual transmissions are not as good as other makes.
10-13-14, 04:23 PM
#30
Pole Position
Actually it is quiet coincidental that you mention the Honda Accord. I have a 2004 with 122k miles on it. Granted Honda is not known for their transmissions but I have not changed the transmission fluid yet and it's still holding up well, it has aged like the rest of the car. Well actually the engine burns a little oil and the lifters a little noisy.
I will be changing the transmission fluid because 120k miles is the specified service interval from Honda. I will also be selling it not because it has given me any trouble but because it's a little dated and still worth something in the open market for a dependable car.
Toyota makes solid auto transmissions and I never seen one of them go down. Unfortunately Toyotas newer manual transmissions are not as good as other makes.
I will be changing the transmission fluid because 120k miles is the specified service interval from Honda. I will also be selling it not because it has given me any trouble but because it's a little dated and still worth something in the open market for a dependable car.
Toyota makes solid auto transmissions and I never seen one of them go down. Unfortunately Toyotas newer manual transmissions are not as good as other makes.