Persocon

here is what the transmission fluid and pan looks like after 92,000 miles of never been changed ATF fluid on a 2008 LS460
note: this fluid is after 2 drain and refills of 5 quarts total new fluid swapped in
you should've seen the fluid when I did the first drain and refill
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Yes there is a filter, it is TINY! the actual paper filter inside the plastic body is only the size of a iPhone 6 Plus and a very thin flat layer too.
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the filter off the car is dated '07 which matches my 08 manufactured date
my new filter i bought is factory toyota made in japan, dated '14
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look at how thin the magnets really are! after the clean up of the metal shavings
10mm bolts all around the pan
most rear bolt on the pan is the drain bolt (bottom left in pic)
middle passenger bolt (bottom center in pic) is the fluid level check bolt used in combination with the fluid check procedure that requires fluid temperature in a specific range.
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PRSUIT460

iTrader: (3)

Thank you for taking the time to take the pictures and share with us!

williakz

Big difference in clean, but any difference in doing the job? What metrics determine whether tranny fluid is doing its thing? And what were those metrics as applied to the old and new ATF? As the saying goes, looks aren't everything.

roadfrog

No...looks aren't everything, but IMHO opinion (and Lexus too apparently.....more on that in a minute), no fluid is "Lifetime". I always laugh at the term "lifetime". Lifetime of what? My lifetime? Lifetime of the car (if so and I keep it going by throwing money into it, that can be decades)? Lifetime of the transmission (if so, will my transmission last longer if I change the transmission fluid)? Lifetime of the Lexus warranty? The transmission is NOT "sealed" like some think. It has drain and fill plugs.

As for Lexus' view, apparently ONLY the U.S. market calls it "lifetime". EVERYWHERE else in the world, including here in Canada, the maintenance schedule call for trans fluid changes every so many years or 60k miles. Do not be surprised if Lexus recants on the "lifetime fluid" point of view. Many other manufacturers have stopped calling it that. A good example is BMW and it's ZF transmission. ZF Friedrichshafen had issue with companies that used it's transmission, (Corvette, etc), calling the fluids "lifetime". Regardless, I just don't get why people choose to ignore their trans fluid. I can tell you that coolant or even engine oil could be lifetime too...just depends how you choose to define it. I had a girlfriend who's dad NEVER changed his engine oil - EVER. He topped up and changed the filter every few years and that car ran for 60k miles before he traded it in. In those days (early to mid 80's), and in those days, engine oil was pretty crude.

At the end of the day, I believe it's all in marketing. Lexus and others are in competition for low maintenance costs. Once the warranty expires, what do they care? For 148 dollars, I'm good with having fresh fluid in my tranny.

As for "metrics", I'm willing to bet that if you sent a sample of the fluid for UOA to Blackstone Labs or other company, that the UOA would come back as having diminished or spent additive packages.

Persocon

thank you for taking your time to thank me! I very much appreciate it.

yes looks aren't everything but Fluid Analysis by BlackStone labs is
the metrics that determine whether the ATF fluid is doing its thing shows up in fluid analysis which this kind gentleman did already

you can see his lab results and comments from the lab technician

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-...iy-w-pics.html

jud149

Did you do the work yourself? If so, could you run us thru the steps? Thanks for the pics.

Persocon

yes I did, I'm not sure if there are enough LS owners wanting a tutorial, but I will put a simple one together.

williakz

Thanks much for the link. Let me begin by admitting that engineers are the biggest PITAs I've ever run into (and I is one!). Roadfrog's "bets" notwithstanding, the fluid analysis provides lots of data and NO INFORMATION. The only hard data that is properly ranged shows the 100k fluid meeting specificaitons (although WHERE the spec ranges came from, ???). The sample assay of metals and other elements is compared against "universal averages" that come from, who?, Universal? Meaningless. And finally, the editorial tech comments are blather, given without context or reference to standards of any kind. EXCEPT, of course, for the one absolute "NO CONTAMINATION."

I agree that black sludge doesn't appear as appetizing (?) as the nice strawberry sundae topping shown elsewhere. But that's where "looks aren't everything" rears its unwelcome head once again. What IS EVERYTHING is the specification of acceptable operating metrics as regards contaminants, viscosity at various temps, and other critical parameters. My engineering background calls BS on the conclusions reached by those turned off by the IDEA of "old" ATF, unsupported by any EVIDENCE of compromised ability to adequately perform its function as designed. Like I said at the beginning, PITAs, every one of us.

roadfrog

From Blackstone:
We do not separate out the various oil brands and grades when we calculate universal averages, so in effect, the universal averages are a mix of all different types of oil out there. Therefore, the additives that are present in your sample will not match those in the universal averages column..

Also, to know if the additive package is still doing it's job, one would have to pay an extra cost to do a TBN (Total Base Number). Not sure if the person who sent in their sample did that.

jud149

Thanks...While I assume that the pan drop and various cleanings as well as installing a new filter are straight forward, my concern pertains to the refill. I imagine that a Lexus shop manual will show that Techstream is required and the fluid temp has to be taken, etc, etc.

This would be the same info Mercedes puts out that I ran into with my CL500 (recently traded for my '11 460) when I changed its ATF. Regarding this, I spoke with a Mercedes tech beforehand and he just kind of laughed and said none of the MB techs follow that procedure and that none goes thru the temp checking routine. They just refill and check the dipstick level to complete the job. He said that while fluid level is obviously important, it's not that critical. So, I'm interested in how you did your refill. Thanks again for your work on this.

Almost forgot. For '02 Mercedes and later, MB initially said the ATF was lifetime and never needing changing. However, they subsequently changed this to changing it at around 40K miles.

PRSUIT460

iTrader: (3)

I don't believe in the lifetime thing either. At the very worst mine would be exchanged out at 90K. Dropping the pan, cleaning it, and changing the filter is even better.

Doublebase

There is a tutorial online about it, I don't have it but I've done it. It involves using a jumper wire at the data link connector...I can't remember which pins. You then start the vehicle, make sure the AC is off, then apply the brake while shifting between D and neutral 6 times. The D drive indicator on the dash will go out, you continue to run the vehicle until the D illuminates agin (correct temp), if the D starts to blink you have exceeded the temperature and if the D is not lit you are not at temperature yet. Once the D lights up, place the vehicle in the air, remove the overflow plug and WS fluid needs to trickle out in a light stream.

Now this is just me trying to remember the sequence, so I'd suggest you look it up. I know the guy at the dealer told me that this is very very important and that he's seen several of these transmissions go bad very quickly because the fluid was low. So I'd be very careful when doing this, in fact if I had to do it again, I wouldn't. I'd just simply do a drain and refill...measure the fluid coming out, put the same amount back in.

Nospinzone

Well I will start off saying that any owner should do what they feel comfortable with doing. If you feel your transmission fluid should be changed every 50K or 100K or whatever mileage, then by all means do it. However, if you have not stressed your transmission by towing a trailer or other abnormal activity, or have not experienced any deterioration in performance, then I would not touch it.

The first time I had ever heard of a sealed transmission is when I bought my wife's 2001 Jaguar in March of that year. The car is almost 14 years old and has 150K miles on it. The transmission runs like the day we bought it. And lest you think it has been babied, my wife is tough on everything, the transmission, the brakes the suspension, you name it, she drives it hard.

My LS has 77K and I have no problem with my transmission. I have no intention of changing the ATF unless I have some reason to do so.

When I read the lab report from the link posted above, I see no problem with the ATF. When you look under properties, all the values are within the range that they should be. So if the properties of the fluid meet the specs, why would it be bad? I understand that it may look bad, but your transmission doesn't run on looks.

I have to go along with williakz's post , but anyone should do what they are comfortable with. The only caveat is if you do change your ATF, make sure you follow all the procedures specified by Lexus.

roadfrog

Fair enough. Soooooo.....if you ran 20k miles on your engine oil and you sent a sample for analysis that said there was nothing abnormal in your sample, would you still change the oil?

And then there's still the issue of why ONLY THE U.S. market calls the fluid "lifetime". That alone should raise at least one eyebrow. And as said before, the transmission is NOT sealed. I don't know why so many continue to call it that. It has gaskets, filters and drain and fill plugs.

williakz

Please DON"T agree with me if you're going to couch it in mealy-mouthed platitudes like the above. You ever try the "if it feels good, do it" adage on your kids? Why not?

The FACTS is the FACTS. Opinions are like...well, never mind, I'm sure you get the point.