16 Months of 2013 LS460
06-04-14, 05:11 PM
#31
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
You are entirely correct that your 2007 LS460 system will act in this manner. However, the 2013 LS460 system WILL NOT! When and if the outside temperature is at or above 75F, the "new and improved" system LOCKS into recirculated air intake mode. It will NEVER come out of recirc as long as the outside temp is 75F or above. I can't make this any simpler. Lexus changed the basic operation of the LS460's climate control program in order to lessen the fuel efficiency "hit" of using fresh air instead of recirculated air. They did the dirty deed and we (late model LS owners) are suffering the consequences. As the summer sets in and all late model Lexus AC systems go into "recirc LOCK," you're going to see an endless stream of complaints here and at your dealer.
06-04-14, 05:21 PM
#32
You are entirely correct that your 2007 LS460 system will act in this manner. However, the 2013 LS460 system WILL NOT! When and if the outside temperature is at or above 75F, the "new and improved" system LOCKS into recirculated air intake mode. It will NEVER come out of recirc as long as the outside temp is 75F or above. I can't make this any simpler. Lexus changed the basic operation of the LS460's climate control program in order to lessen the fuel efficiency "hit" of using fresh air instead of recirculated air. They did the dirty deed and we (late model LS owners) are suffering the consequences. As the summer sets in and all late model Lexus AC systems go into "recirc LOCK," you're going to see an endless stream of complaints here and at your dealer.
Question: When you're "locked" as you say, what is the temp chosen for the cabin? And the temp outside? I think the difference between those two plays a role on the system's decision of using recirculation or outside air...
Last edited by Luxofreak; 06-04-14 at 05:24 PM.
06-04-14, 05:57 PM
#33
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Good question. As I said, when the outside temp is 75F or above, the system will LOCK into recirc. I did not entertain the "neural network's" response to setpoints above 75F for reasons that SHOULD be obvious to you given a bit of consideration... (hint: 75F+ outside and 75F+ interior setpoint?)
06-04-14, 07:17 PM
#34
Good question. As I said, when the outside temp is 75F or above, the system will LOCK into recirc. I did not entertain the "neural network's" response to setpoints above 75F for reasons that SHOULD be obvious to you given a bit of consideration... (hint: 75F+ outside and 75F+ interior setpoint?)
Like you said, if you set the temp to 75F while the temp outside is 75F - the system 'should' switch to outside air, once the internal temperature matches (or gets close to) the outside one. But what do I know, maybe Lexus indeed made a big mistake... Good luck and sorry for the confusion.
06-04-14, 08:00 PM
#35
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Engineers do what they're told to do; they optimize systems given design constraints imposed by others.
In this case, they were directed to increase fuel efficiency and lower emissions at the expense of everything else (so why full-sized spare with factory rim? Can't answer that one!). AC operates more "efficiently" when it locks on recirculated air intake rather than dealing with "fresh" air and its attendant complications (generally higher temperature and humidity). The first attempt at the ultimate AC system was the one the boys with the pocket protectors put in the inaugural 2007 LS460. It was a no-compromise, customer comfort and convenience first system. Unfortunately, your government has determined that other priorities should reign. Lexus has gone along with this dictate, and the current compromise to the 2007 AC system is the result. It really is very simple.
06-04-14, 09:41 PM
#36
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
OK, getting late, but I thought I'd put up the pics of the seat problems.
First problem is the sensor pushing into my spine and wearing through the leather seat. The dealer has ordered a brand new replacement leather seatback, and I'll try to have them reroute the sensor on installation. From what I'm told, the problem is caused by the placement of a sensor (one of five) that detects the temperature of the seat back during heating so that it doesn't overheat and thus cause discomfort to the driver/passenger or damage to the leather. It's possible the semi-aniline leather in my car is too delicate to handle this sensor placement. I imagine sturdier leather, especially in darker colors, would show less evidence of the problem.
Second problem (last pic) is the flattening of the bottom seat cushion, resulting in MY bottom bouncing on the metal supports rather than the erstwhile cushioning. Seat cushion is also on order and I'll have the local upholsterer add some padding (just like I did with my 2007 seat).
First problem is the sensor pushing into my spine and wearing through the leather seat. The dealer has ordered a brand new replacement leather seatback, and I'll try to have them reroute the sensor on installation. From what I'm told, the problem is caused by the placement of a sensor (one of five) that detects the temperature of the seat back during heating so that it doesn't overheat and thus cause discomfort to the driver/passenger or damage to the leather. It's possible the semi-aniline leather in my car is too delicate to handle this sensor placement. I imagine sturdier leather, especially in darker colors, would show less evidence of the problem.
Second problem (last pic) is the flattening of the bottom seat cushion, resulting in MY bottom bouncing on the metal supports rather than the erstwhile cushioning. Seat cushion is also on order and I'll have the local upholsterer add some padding (just like I did with my 2007 seat).
06-05-14, 05:02 AM
#37
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A/C System works properly.
Your Point 6 seems wrong. After reading your post yesterday, I observed my A/C system lights. They did switch back and forth at least twice between fresh air and recirculate. I have a 2013 LS SWB. I've never noticed foul air in may car.
06-05-14, 09:31 AM
#38
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
What time of day were you driving and what were set point(s) and outside air temp? As you can see from some of the other responses to my post, some owners are indeed experiencing foul odor on AC startup in their VERY new cars. BTW, I have no foul odor in mine either, but I make a point to force it into fresh air intake mode as often as I can remember to do so (not every time, unfortunately).
06-05-14, 09:42 AM
#39
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
UPDATE:
The loose lower dash issue I reported appears to be normal. My 2007 LS460 did not exhibit the looseness, but it may have been modified from its original factory state (i.e. radar detector hard-wiring). Checking some 2013 and 2014 LS models at my dealer yesterday, all had lower panels that moved 1/2-3/4" when pushed up. Such are the pitfalls of using small samples to make generalizations.
The loose lower dash issue I reported appears to be normal. My 2007 LS460 did not exhibit the looseness, but it may have been modified from its original factory state (i.e. radar detector hard-wiring). Checking some 2013 and 2014 LS models at my dealer yesterday, all had lower panels that moved 1/2-3/4" when pushed up. Such are the pitfalls of using small samples to make generalizations.
06-05-14, 09:32 PM
#40
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Post 30k Mile Service Update:
Got the LS460 back from the shop. Not washed (as instructed), tire pressures same as on drop-off (as instructed), wheel lug nuts hand-torqued (as instructed). Addressing the items, in order, reported in first post in this thread:
1. Brake actuator replaced (Part No. 44050-50110) per TSIB L-SB-0178-09 and brake system bled.
2. Warped front brake rotors - nothing done at my request.
3. Driver's seat discomfort - new seat covering and cushioning on order. Protruding sensor will be relocated on installation, IF POSSIBLE.
4. Rear door panel clip replaced and panel reinstalled.
5. Loose lower dash panel is normal.
6. AC in "recirc-lock" is normal Lexus programming per Tech Tip L-TT-0158-14 which addresses how to avoid AC start-up stink. No Techstream mod possible. Dealer Product Report (DPR) initiated by service manager and transmitted to Lexus corporate.
Additional info:
Engine air and cabin filters replaced. No oil change, tire rotation, brake fluid exchange, etc. done at my request. Total charge, with discount, $165.69.
As always, Lexus service personnel were friendly, courteous, and competent. Loaner was 2013/4? ES350 with 11k miles.
Got the LS460 back from the shop. Not washed (as instructed), tire pressures same as on drop-off (as instructed), wheel lug nuts hand-torqued (as instructed). Addressing the items, in order, reported in first post in this thread:
1. Brake actuator replaced (Part No. 44050-50110) per TSIB L-SB-0178-09 and brake system bled.
2. Warped front brake rotors - nothing done at my request.
3. Driver's seat discomfort - new seat covering and cushioning on order. Protruding sensor will be relocated on installation, IF POSSIBLE.
4. Rear door panel clip replaced and panel reinstalled.
5. Loose lower dash panel is normal.
6. AC in "recirc-lock" is normal Lexus programming per Tech Tip L-TT-0158-14 which addresses how to avoid AC start-up stink. No Techstream mod possible. Dealer Product Report (DPR) initiated by service manager and transmitted to Lexus corporate.
Additional info:
Engine air and cabin filters replaced. No oil change, tire rotation, brake fluid exchange, etc. done at my request. Total charge, with discount, $165.69.
As always, Lexus service personnel were friendly, courteous, and competent. Loaner was 2013/4? ES350 with 11k miles.
06-06-14, 09:57 AM
#41
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I have an updated observation on this:
I just had a couple cycles of start > set manual (recirc off) > stop
It is currently 73F outside. This is less than the 75 cited above, and yet, both times I returned to the car and started it, the SOB was in Recirc/Auto mode.
This is really a BS design/implementation decision, and I agree with the earlier comment, that as summer wears on, more and more people will be like WTF this is bullshi+.
I just had a couple cycles of start > set manual (recirc off) > stop
It is currently 73F outside. This is less than the 75 cited above, and yet, both times I returned to the car and started it, the SOB was in Recirc/Auto mode.
This is really a BS design/implementation decision, and I agree with the earlier comment, that as summer wears on, more and more people will be like WTF this is bullshi+.
06-06-14, 10:11 AM
#42
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
How long did the AC run in recirc? I wouldn't put too much weight on the initial start-up mode, since it's entirely possible that the system starts up in a dumb recirc mode until all AC mechanicals (ie. cold air, pressures good, fans working, etc.) are up and running before it hands off management to the neural network/decision matrix. Surely within 5 minutes, the system should be out of dumb mode (if it exists) and under active management by the program. The other wrinkle is whether or not you operate your car in ECO mode. As I recall, this places additional restrictions on the AC system although I don't recall the specifics since I eschew ECO for either Comfort (usually) or Sport + (twisty roads).
06-06-14, 10:19 AM
#43
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How long did the AC run in recirc? I wouldn't put too much weight on the initial start-up mode, since it's entirely possible that the system starts up in a dumb recirc mode until all AC mechanicals (ie. cold air, pressures good, fans working, etc.) are up and running before it hands off management to the neural network/decision matrix. Surely within 5 minutes, the system should be out of dumb mode (if it exists) and under active management by the program. The other wrinkle is whether or not you operate your car in ECO mode. As I recall, this places additional restrictions on the AC system although I don't recall the specifics since I eschew ECO for either Comfort (usually) or Sport + (twisty roads).
Also, as you said earlier, I think the setpoint comes into play also (I had it set for 75, which was above the external temp). When I leave work today, I will leave it alone for a few minutes to observe if it changes (but then too, by that time it may be a little warmer outside)
06-06-14, 10:31 AM
#44
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Not quite right on running modes. The deal is Normal or more "green" modes (either Comfort or ECO) are "sticky." They will be remembered on engine restart. The big, bad "red" modes (Sport, Sport +) will be reset to Normal on engine restart. Once again, the hand of the government is at work. Emissions/fuel efficiency are not "official" unless they are achieved with NO action by the driver (other than turning car on). If the red modes were sticky, Lexus would not get credit for the higher efficiency/lower emissions of the Normal mode. The Feds do, however, allow modes that are more efficient than the default one to be sticky.
06-06-14, 03:52 PM
#45
Pole Position
Seat fix
Well, it's been a while. The car just went into the dealer for its 30k mile checkup. Based on the service manager's report, it seems the LS's 2013 major-minor refresh might just have missed fixing the same (few) issues that plagued my 2007 LS CPO. To wit:
1) Brake actuator replaced - audible and foot-felt clicking on light brake application and again on let-off. Began at 20k miles and drove me crazy in stop and go traffic, but I thought I'd witness the part's devolution first-hand. (same problem with 2007 LS)
2) Front brake rotors warped (pads are fine) producing shuddering when braking from high speed (55mph+). And I'm not a heavy accelerator, speeder, or braker. Dealer says he'll turn them for me, but warns I'll be back in 5k for rotor replacement once they warp again. (same problem with 2007). Believe I'll live with it this time until the pads are gone, then replace the ultralight OEM rotors with heavier, less CAFE-compliant aftermarket ones.
3) Uncomfortable driver's seat (I don't ride shotgun, but same issues would apply to passenger's seat). There's even a nifty new little sensor that is placed PERFECTLY to prod you right in the spine of your lower back. Result? Discoloration of the seat leather pinched between the senor and my tender backside. Also the seat cushioning is just about shot - it has thinned and flattened so the driver's bucket has become a bench. And I'm not that big a guy. (same problem as 2007 made worse by sensor placement). Dealer searching for cushion replacement, but found nowhere in Lexus stock.
4) The rear passenger door panel just decided to pop loose at the window one day (heat, fastener failure, etc.?) I guess anything is possible, but this is a new one on me. (NOT a 2007 problem).
5) The lower dash seems to be very loosely attached or the attachment has somehow come loose. Plugging in an OBDII just feels all wrong when the whole panel shifts away from you as you press it home. (NOT a 2007 problem).
6) The AC programming is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! I understand that Lexus needs to gain every little bit of efficiency so that I can ride around with a full-sized spare mounted on a fifth factory aluminum wheel, but ... On AUTO, the AC now - by Lexus design, I've been informed - goes directly into recirculation mode and NEVER switches to fresh air intake. With a full complement of passengers heading home after 18 holes in the Alabama heat, we now enjoy perfectly dehumidified and temperature controlled air that STINKS to high heaven! (NOT a 2007 problem - AC was biased to fresh air, not recirc). Do you think oxygen/carbon dioxide levels go into the red zone with four guys sucking wind for an hour or two in recirc mode? Just asking...
So, not a great year for the NEW flagship, AFAIC. I've initiated corporate-level official complaints on each of theses items (except for dash and door panel), and hopefully the next greatest LS will be better than this one. That'll be in late 2016, early 2017, right? No biggie - what's three years when you're driving the Ultimate Driving Mach - oops! I meant to say the Pursuit of Perfect Relentlessness, of course.
1) Brake actuator replaced - audible and foot-felt clicking on light brake application and again on let-off. Began at 20k miles and drove me crazy in stop and go traffic, but I thought I'd witness the part's devolution first-hand. (same problem with 2007 LS)
2) Front brake rotors warped (pads are fine) producing shuddering when braking from high speed (55mph+). And I'm not a heavy accelerator, speeder, or braker. Dealer says he'll turn them for me, but warns I'll be back in 5k for rotor replacement once they warp again. (same problem with 2007). Believe I'll live with it this time until the pads are gone, then replace the ultralight OEM rotors with heavier, less CAFE-compliant aftermarket ones.
3) Uncomfortable driver's seat (I don't ride shotgun, but same issues would apply to passenger's seat). There's even a nifty new little sensor that is placed PERFECTLY to prod you right in the spine of your lower back. Result? Discoloration of the seat leather pinched between the senor and my tender backside. Also the seat cushioning is just about shot - it has thinned and flattened so the driver's bucket has become a bench. And I'm not that big a guy. (same problem as 2007 made worse by sensor placement). Dealer searching for cushion replacement, but found nowhere in Lexus stock.
4) The rear passenger door panel just decided to pop loose at the window one day (heat, fastener failure, etc.?) I guess anything is possible, but this is a new one on me. (NOT a 2007 problem).
5) The lower dash seems to be very loosely attached or the attachment has somehow come loose. Plugging in an OBDII just feels all wrong when the whole panel shifts away from you as you press it home. (NOT a 2007 problem).
6) The AC programming is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! I understand that Lexus needs to gain every little bit of efficiency so that I can ride around with a full-sized spare mounted on a fifth factory aluminum wheel, but ... On AUTO, the AC now - by Lexus design, I've been informed - goes directly into recirculation mode and NEVER switches to fresh air intake. With a full complement of passengers heading home after 18 holes in the Alabama heat, we now enjoy perfectly dehumidified and temperature controlled air that STINKS to high heaven! (NOT a 2007 problem - AC was biased to fresh air, not recirc). Do you think oxygen/carbon dioxide levels go into the red zone with four guys sucking wind for an hour or two in recirc mode? Just asking...
So, not a great year for the NEW flagship, AFAIC. I've initiated corporate-level official complaints on each of theses items (except for dash and door panel), and hopefully the next greatest LS will be better than this one. That'll be in late 2016, early 2017, right? No biggie - what's three years when you're driving the Ultimate Driving Mach - oops! I meant to say the Pursuit of Perfect Relentlessness, of course.
