SerentyNow

Before I retired one of my jobs was to assure quality at GE. They called us "Black Belts" and, by the GE definition a defect is what the customer finds unacceptable in a product or service. They don't expect the customer to be an engineer. There is an expression: You don't have to be a chicken to know if the egg is bad. Now no one wants their car to suddenly turn the wheels to the far left while they are making a right turn at a relatively slow speed. So, by GEs definition, this is a defect. Given that no specific problem could be found with my particular vehicle it is likely to be a design defect. If that's true, Lexus doesn't have to transport my car to be tested. Just to find one of the same model and year. And BTW the skid was not on the streets of San Francisco, but 20 miles north of the Golden Gate Bridge making a right turn from a freeway overpass that goes over 101N. The turn does go onto a slight downhill slope but it's not clear to me this would affect the skid at all.

Now one comment that is a bit annoying is "I think we have established that your car did not self steer into the slide". OK, so I am making a right turn. I have turned the wheels to the right and in a tiny fraction of a second find the wheels are turned to the far left. It took me two to three seconds to get back into my lane by steering the car back to the right. There is NO WAY I could have turned the wheel to the left this fast by myself. So what caused it? A ghost? Clearly it MUST be and only can be the car unless you simply don't believe my account. That's exactly how Toyota reacted to the unintended acceleration problem. By not believing it. Even when it was a State Trooper driving and who was killed. OK, don't believe me. It's your right. But I hope no one is killed.

As for the downhill roll, if someone wishes I can post the video I took (an d this was on a hill in SF). It is simply my contention that few automatic transmission cars I know of would roll forward so freely, while in reverse, even on a 20% grade. Now I might, with some help, be able to test this proposition if I got a variety of cars and enough people in the Bay area willing to perform the test.

lexgolf

If you really worked in quality at GE, I wish you would use a bit more research before making unsubstantiated statements like "Toyota's unintended acceleration problem." It has been established by numerous experts that the state trooper died because the carpet slid over his accelerator pedal. Toyota did not have an unintended acceleration problem. The media made it sound like it did. The same as Audi was supposed to have an unintended acceleration problem.

Often, the user does not understand how to use a product in the way it was intended. Putting after market mats over the factory ones was the chief reason behind the so called acceleration issues.

It appears that in your case, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. It appears to me that you understeered, and are looking for someone else to blame.

Nospinzone

Let me clarify what I mean when I say it is premature for you to call this a design flaw.

This forum has 1000's of members. Most are regular contributors, and others have joined to post about a problem they are having and then leave when they get a response. I don't know what fraction of total LS owners these members represent, but it is significant. They also represent tens if not hundreds of million miles driven. And the regular members here are car enthusiasts and fairly knowledgeable about cars.

I've read complaints of just about everything in or on the car. Some things were significant like control arms, air suspension and various engine problems. Some things were relatively minor, but definitely a problem. In all the 8 or so years that this model has been in production no one on this forum to my knowledge has ever had either the steering problem or the hill problem that you describe.

Now I am not saying you don't have these problems, but that they appear to be so rare that they cannot be called design flaws, at least at this point. I've already told you that you may have a defective transmission. With both problems, it is hard to tell just from reading a description. Members here have posted photos, videos and audio recordings to demonstrate the problem they are having and then it is much easier for others to understand.

GXAlan

Give us some data... number of miles on the car, photograph of the turn, tread on the tires, modifications (if any)... last maintenance, etc.

If you're going to complain to NHTSA or Lexus, you're going to need data to support your complaint, Might as well collect it and present it here to start.

No one is denying that you might have a problem, and I hear that you wish Lexus would just investigate immediately, but in every case you have to help the investigators with info. Right now, it's like you complaining to the police that you witnessed (or were a victim of) a crime and keep insisting that the police investigate and refuse to spend some time talking with the police to review everything you remember and all of the environmental factors.

SerentyNow

OK, so the car had less than 2000 miles on it at the time of the skid. This should rule out tread wear unless you think I was racing my car. NOT. There were no modifications made to the car before or since. The car was bought with 587 miles on it so it had not even had its first maintenance. It was a fresh Lexus certified vehicle.

No one, then or since, has found any problems with the transmission. Certainly, I can post pictures of the intersection and will do that soon. As a Newbie to the forum it would be helpful if someone describes how and where to do this.

Now about my role at GE, the comment made misunderstands GEs basic view on defects. People use products, not robots. In the case of the Toyota "unintended acceleration" it is true that the movement of a floor mat caused the problem. It's also true that the CPSC requires cribs to have their slats a small enough distance apart so a baby won't get its head caught. They don't blame the baby for putting its head through a wider opening. And, though the State Trooper is no baby the concept that an unexpected event took place which caused the car to accelerate and kill him is all that matters. In this case Caveat Emptor applies and care must be taken to avoid unintended consequences even though you might not describe this as a design flaw of the engine, transmission or other working parts of the car - it was what you might call a cosmetic part that was not even properly considered for the effects it might have. If you sold Christmas tree lights and they burned far too hot it would be wrong to blame the customer for the mistake of putting the lights on a tree! One must always consider the environment in which a product works as part of the quality assessment.

GXAlan

Your story has gotten a lot more interesting.


Since you're complaining about things in April 2014, am I correct in that this was a 2012 model year car with 587 miles that sat on the lot for years that you recently picked it up? Or did this event happen 2+ years ago and now you're complaining 2+ years after the fact?

IF, this was a 2012 car which someone sold back to the dealer because it was just before the 2013 refresh, and then your car sat on the lot for 2+ years, I have a working hypothesis: tire flatspotting

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=42

http://blog.raceramps.com/whitepaper...nce-car-tires/

Flat spotting is usually temporary, but if a car sat around for 2+ years, it's possible that there's enough permanent flatspotting that you now have a problem. With rain kicking up grime (naturally a slicker environment), if you were turning to the right, the rear tires lose traction so you were oversteering rather than understeering (power sliding), the correct manuever would be to have the skid control to the left. It can only do 3 degrees if your car is within specifications

But as with drift mechanics and then differences in static/dynamic coefficient of friction + tire flatspotting, in the vehicle, you would experience a sharp jolt when the car was drifting with minimal traction and then regained traction, now with your car directed into the left lane, giving you the sensation that the car sharply turned toward the left.

1. On inspection, can you see any flat spotting, particularly in the rear tires?
2. On a normally smooth road, do you feel like your car has a "buzz" or a "bumpy ride"?

What exact brand of tire is installed?

SerentyNow

This is a car I bought in Riverside CA after a 2nd surgical opinion at UCLA in March of 2013. It was considered used, though it had only 587 miles and had been used by a dealer. The car has Dunlop P245/45R19 tires and, apart from the somewhat soft ride, which can be ameliorated with 40psi of tire pressure, I had noticed no problems with the tires.

I was somewhat miffed at the report of Marin Lexus but, if you understand that I just had major surgery and was not up for a fight at the time you can see why I let it lay for a while. However after two more problems, recently, the hill roll and, one I did not mention, a sudden one time failure of the backup camera, I thought I had had enough problems from Lexus and they ought to start listening. Moreover, my health is now at the level that I can expend the effort even to grapple with a large corporation.

GXAlan

I'm sorry to hear about your health problems. As you recognize, that can only amplify any frustration you have with your car.

You mentioned that you're running 40 psi. That's probably another factor since the car's suspension and VDIM tuning won't be correct. If you check the door sill, I am pretty sure the factory psi is 32.

http://www.hybridcars.com/forums/showthread.php?101213-Dangers-of-Over-Inflating-Tires

that's not an explanation for your backup camera problem, but at least we have an idea what's going on with your car with that turn.

The downhill roll is something that no car could probably handle...

Nospinzone

That level of tire inflation almost certainly played a role in your skid. If you have the tire pressure set at 40 psi cold, on the road the pressure is going to at least 42 even under mild driving and cool ambient temperatures. That is way over the recommended inflation.

SerentyNow

Sorry for some confusion I caused. My current tire inflation is at 40 psi for adequate road feel but it was not set that high at the time of the skid. Another source of confusion is the 3 degree correction cited as the maximum change that the traction control will apply. This is a rather small change compared to the 9 degree angle my calculations show as the maximum right turn position. If the traction control had only chaged my tire direction by three degrees it is hard to imagine that this would have sent me into the adjacent lane and required me to turn the wheel to the right at least one full rotation. And, of course, under-steer would have had to be quite serious and the skid quite noticeable for the car to slide into the next lane. So, I can't really explain how 3 degrees could be a maximum correction and get the result I did. It does not compute.

SW17LS

The bottom line here is that the traction control cannot change the wheels position or steering angle. It's physically impossible. The steering wheel is connected to the wheels through a mechanical steering rack. The wheels do not turn without the steering wheel turning, it's physically impossible. The system corrects for skids by using the brakes independently at all four corners, when they talk about adjusting steering able they are modulating the power assist to better allow the driver to steer the car in the way they need to to correct the skid. It can NOT steer the car. If what you were saying was true the steering wheel would have forced itself over wrenching itself out of your hands. Again...physical mechanical linkage. It doesn't just disconnect and then reconnect again.

With that said...how can Lexus repair so,ending if they cannot reproduce the problem? How do they know what to repair or replace if they cannot see what components are malfunctioning.

It has very low mileage. You should sell it. I'd write you a check for it right now.

Ascari_2

I've tried to stress this point in more than one post, but the physical/mechanic impossibility appears to fly right over OP's head.

roadfrog

Ummm yeah sorry....but that applies to almost every post you've made so far on this thread. We're trying to help, but it's not easy with all the rhetoric and sporadic information.

SerentyNow

I certainly am not either qualified as an auto engineer or Lexus mechanic. So, what the car should or shouldn't be able to do based on its engineering design is something I cannot personally either confirm or deny. All I do know is that, to return to the lane I should have been in - the far right lane - I had to turn the steering wheel through at least one full turn to the right, or more. Why this would have happened is not clear to me. If the traction control could not have caused this phenomenon what could? What I CAN say, for sure, is that it DID happen. It was no dream.

Ascari_2

Just sell the car