Hesitation on Acceleration
07-12-14, 01:18 PM
#46
Just a data point for y'all. Last month I purchased an '07 LS460 with ~95,000 miles on it from CarMax and soon after bringing it home, I was experiencing acceleration problems. The car could be jerky during stop and go traffic (which my passengers found annoying enough to complain about) and hesitate when I needed to accelerate, sometimes from a stop, but more frequently in part throttle conditions just keeping up with traffic. At first I suspected a transmission issue (felt like what I imagined a slipping torque converter might feel like), but based on these Club Lexus threads, I believed I had narrowed it down to being related to the Hesitation on Acceleration TSIB L-SB-0033-08.
I brought the car back to CarMax in the 30 day warranty period and they confirmed the issue and had it sent to Lexus to diagnose per the TSIB I handed them. The Lexus service rep told me that the car's ECU had never been updated, so they performed the update and, for the the last couple of weeks, the car has driven flawlessly. I asked the tech specifically if there was a risk that my car would need the cylinder heads replaced (I was worried that my used car warranty was only 30 days), and he assured me that their diagnostic specialist was positive that my car is not a candidate for needing that fix (I didn't press him for exactly how he knew).
I would recommend, as a layman, that if you have an '07 LS460, even if you aren't sure if you have the issue, it's probably wise to get the latest ECU programming. I have a feeling that the previous owner was living with this issue for thousands of miles, but couldn't pin-point it enough (without y'all's help) to ask the dealer about it and just suffered it. Anyway - that's my two cents!
I brought the car back to CarMax in the 30 day warranty period and they confirmed the issue and had it sent to Lexus to diagnose per the TSIB I handed them. The Lexus service rep told me that the car's ECU had never been updated, so they performed the update and, for the the last couple of weeks, the car has driven flawlessly. I asked the tech specifically if there was a risk that my car would need the cylinder heads replaced (I was worried that my used car warranty was only 30 days), and he assured me that their diagnostic specialist was positive that my car is not a candidate for needing that fix (I didn't press him for exactly how he knew).
I would recommend, as a layman, that if you have an '07 LS460, even if you aren't sure if you have the issue, it's probably wise to get the latest ECU programming. I have a feeling that the previous owner was living with this issue for thousands of miles, but couldn't pin-point it enough (without y'all's help) to ask the dealer about it and just suffered it. Anyway - that's my two cents!
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DrQuality (08-05-21)
10-06-14, 10:14 PM
#48
Driver School Candidate
I purchased an 07 Ls460L last month from Carmax and although everything about the car is immaculate, I started experiencing this same hesitation problem after doing my own oil change. It has 60k miles on it, and apparently the former owner had the 60k service done at the local Lexus dealer already. I guess I need to bring it to the dealer for this ECU update. It really is a safety issue and I am surprised Lexus has not recalled this car in for the update. I wonder if I should just disconnect the battery for 1 hour to try first to see if it fixes like some of the members here. My concern is if I disconnect the battery, will the radio and Nav work after this or will I need any code to reset my radio?
10-22-14, 07:10 PM
#51
Another update - Old Baby's First Oil Change
So I finally did the first oil change in the car - took it to the quick lube and was in and out in 20 minutes. Didn't notice anything driving home. The next day, the hesitation was back in full force and that continued for another few days (I was seeing if it would work itself out). 
Finally tonight I took some CL members' advice and took the battery terminals off and connected them electrically to one another using a piece of aluminum wire. This was all very uneventful. I re-connected everything and took the car out for a ride and there was NO hesitation any more.
This got me thinking that when I bought my car, CarMax performed an oil change on it, and this might have been all it needed to clear up my issue.
I'll post again if the issue returns before the next oil change. If you don't hear from me, I'll be driving merrily along!
Finally tonight I took some CL members' advice and took the battery terminals off and connected them electrically to one another using a piece of aluminum wire. This was all very uneventful. I re-connected everything and took the car out for a ride and there was NO hesitation any more.
This got me thinking that when I bought my car, CarMax performed an oil change on it, and this might have been all it needed to clear up my issue.
I'll post again if the issue returns before the next oil change. If you don't hear from me, I'll be driving merrily along!Just a data point for y'all. Last month I purchased an '07 LS460 with ~95,000 miles on it from CarMax and soon after bringing it home, I was experiencing acceleration problems. The car could be jerky during stop and go traffic (which my passengers found annoying enough to complain about) and hesitate when I needed to accelerate, sometimes from a stop, but more frequently in part throttle conditions just keeping up with traffic. At first I suspected a transmission issue (felt like what I imagined a slipping torque converter might feel like), but based on these Club Lexus threads, I believed I had narrowed it down to being related to the Hesitation on Acceleration TSIB L-SB-0033-08.
I brought the car back to CarMax in the 30 day warranty period and they confirmed the issue and had it sent to Lexus to diagnose per the TSIB I handed them. The Lexus service rep told me that the car's ECU had never been updated, so they performed the update and, for the the last couple of weeks, the car has driven flawlessly. I asked the tech specifically if there was a risk that my car would need the cylinder heads replaced (I was worried that my used car warranty was only 30 days), and he assured me that their diagnostic specialist was positive that my car is not a candidate for needing that fix (I didn't press him for exactly how he knew).
I would recommend, as a layman, that if you have an '07 LS460, even if you aren't sure if you have the issue, it's probably wise to get the latest ECU programming. I have a feeling that the previous owner was living with this issue for thousands of miles, but couldn't pin-point it enough (without y'all's help) to ask the dealer about it and just suffered it. Anyway - that's my two cents!
I brought the car back to CarMax in the 30 day warranty period and they confirmed the issue and had it sent to Lexus to diagnose per the TSIB I handed them. The Lexus service rep told me that the car's ECU had never been updated, so they performed the update and, for the the last couple of weeks, the car has driven flawlessly. I asked the tech specifically if there was a risk that my car would need the cylinder heads replaced (I was worried that my used car warranty was only 30 days), and he assured me that their diagnostic specialist was positive that my car is not a candidate for needing that fix (I didn't press him for exactly how he knew).
I would recommend, as a layman, that if you have an '07 LS460, even if you aren't sure if you have the issue, it's probably wise to get the latest ECU programming. I have a feeling that the previous owner was living with this issue for thousands of miles, but couldn't pin-point it enough (without y'all's help) to ask the dealer about it and just suffered it. Anyway - that's my two cents!
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DrQuality (08-05-21)
10-25-14, 07:15 AM
#52
Pole Position
I have a small theory on this hesitation. After watching the video of the hesitation - and seeing the rpms increase - this is clearly not an engine/valve/VVT problem. This is a transmission issue (as everyone has already said).
Crazy thought...anyone ever consider having a total transmission service? Rather than just a flush, or just a reflash. This car has a paper filter, not a screen type. The filter is a serviceable and replaceable. It's something that would be replaced on just about any other car, it's not a typical metal mesh filter that lexus usually uses. Those filters don't need to be replaced, they are strainers, this filter is different. Because this transmission is "non serviceable", if you call the dealer even they don't know that they have a replaceable paper element filter.
We all know ws tranny fluid is a low viscosity fluid, it needs to flow. This transmission has 8 speeds - think of all the clutch packs in there. That is a lot of clutch material!! A dirty or partially clogged filter will cause the problems that many people are experiencing. Torque converter clutch lockup and release needs fluid flow. A clogged or partially blocked filter will limit that. This transmission needs flow. Take a look at the dirty fluid that comes out of one of these things, it's dark and gritty. Change the filter...the tranny kit is $50 bucks...well worth it rather than just flushing an 8 speed tranny and not replacing that big, dirty filter.
I find it funny that it's only happening to 07-08 models. It could be that the newer cars don't have enough miles on them to clog that filter up just enough to cause some problems. Again, it has a paper filter (or whatever is inside it). It's not a metal mesh strainer. It needs to be replaced.
Crazy thought...anyone ever consider having a total transmission service? Rather than just a flush, or just a reflash. This car has a paper filter, not a screen type. The filter is a serviceable and replaceable. It's something that would be replaced on just about any other car, it's not a typical metal mesh filter that lexus usually uses. Those filters don't need to be replaced, they are strainers, this filter is different. Because this transmission is "non serviceable", if you call the dealer even they don't know that they have a replaceable paper element filter.
We all know ws tranny fluid is a low viscosity fluid, it needs to flow. This transmission has 8 speeds - think of all the clutch packs in there. That is a lot of clutch material!! A dirty or partially clogged filter will cause the problems that many people are experiencing. Torque converter clutch lockup and release needs fluid flow. A clogged or partially blocked filter will limit that. This transmission needs flow. Take a look at the dirty fluid that comes out of one of these things, it's dark and gritty. Change the filter...the tranny kit is $50 bucks...well worth it rather than just flushing an 8 speed tranny and not replacing that big, dirty filter.
I find it funny that it's only happening to 07-08 models. It could be that the newer cars don't have enough miles on them to clog that filter up just enough to cause some problems. Again, it has a paper filter (or whatever is inside it). It's not a metal mesh strainer. It needs to be replaced.
10-25-14, 07:43 AM
#53
Lexus Fanatic
This is a transmission issue (as everyone has already said).
I hope DevH jumps in here about how the VVT-I system works and explain better than I, how this hesitation can manifest through wrong oil use, etc.
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DrQuality (08-05-21)
10-25-14, 08:33 AM
#54
Pole Position
Who is "everyone"? I don't ever recall more than just one or two members THEORIZING that it MAY be a transmission issue. If you look at how the VVT system works, you'll see that there's more to it than just a regular injection system. That said, I agree that the trans needs to be serviced regularly, contrary to what the American maintenance manual states. Also, the hesitation ONLY appears AFTER an oil change....it's not random.
I hope DevH jumps in here about how the VVT-I system works and explain better than I, how this hesitation can manifest through wrong oil use, etc.
I hope DevH jumps in here about how the VVT-I system works and explain better than I, how this hesitation can manifest through wrong oil use, etc.
I'm only going off the video on YouTube - the one where the guy mashes the peddle and the rpms go way up, but the speedometer does not.
If the rpms increase that quickly, then the crankshaft is spinning like it should. The crank sensor is picking up on this...this is engine speed. Now something is happening between that engine and the wheels, that leaves us with the transmission/torque converter.
Now if you have your foot in that pedal and that crank doesn't spin, then yeah, I can see it being the VVT. But if those rpms are going up fast I'd look at something else.
This also most definitely could be a computer problem. The transmission goes off many inputs...vehicle speed, tps position, engine temp, tranny temp, engine load (in this case mass air flow), but people have had them flashed and didn't really help.
I'll tell you what, I like this transmission. I like what it can do for fuel economy. And there doesn't appear to be major out right failures written about it. They now put it into the CTS. But it is a little quirky. I do feel it hunts a bit. There are so many speeds I'd have to be a mathematician to figure out what gear I'm in. Going up hills this thing actually up shifts on me when I hit 2k rpms (not down shift). So I'm just guessing here on the filter being a problem and it's certainly a cheap way to check...no one has anything to lose, except for a couple of hundred bucks and finding someone that can do this service properly, because believe me there are many that can. Many wouldn't even do this procedure for you.
10-25-14, 09:47 AM
#55
I wouldn't base a video on anecdotal proof that it's a transmission issue. Maybe the guy in the video has a transmission issue. Maybe the guy has a low power event and the transmission selected a lower gear based on the load since it's computer controlled.
I like to look at the history of the car and it seems like owners were reporting a problem that occurs after an oil change and after a few hundred miles the condition subsides. Toyota's VVT system is different then Honda's but one thing they have in common across the board is nearly the same kind of technology which this condition has been seen. Specifically the oil strainers on the VVT oil control actuator that get clogged up with hard varnish deposits. The source of these deposits are usually from cars that run up high millage on regular oil or those that have changed to Synthetic oil which then cleans off the deposits that gets clogged at the strainers.
There might be a threshold before a check engine light will be illuminated for a bad actuator which has not been reached yet, but will cause this buggy condition. The actuator going bad is probably based on a resistance feed back rather then a oil flow problem. Again it opens up other avenues that lead to more speculation that only an engineer who designed the system would care to enlighten us on.
This is probably on the edge of what was acceptable as a random event like a misfire that doesn't get reported until it starts occurring all the time.
If the event were to illuminate a check engine light I guaranty you they will replace the expensive actuator then discovering the real cause of the problem which is the strainer that can be replaced cheaply. This is where people get taken when they go to the dealer for service because of a lack of understanding by the techs who are not engineers.
I like to look at the history of the car and it seems like owners were reporting a problem that occurs after an oil change and after a few hundred miles the condition subsides. Toyota's VVT system is different then Honda's but one thing they have in common across the board is nearly the same kind of technology which this condition has been seen. Specifically the oil strainers on the VVT oil control actuator that get clogged up with hard varnish deposits. The source of these deposits are usually from cars that run up high millage on regular oil or those that have changed to Synthetic oil which then cleans off the deposits that gets clogged at the strainers.
There might be a threshold before a check engine light will be illuminated for a bad actuator which has not been reached yet, but will cause this buggy condition. The actuator going bad is probably based on a resistance feed back rather then a oil flow problem. Again it opens up other avenues that lead to more speculation that only an engineer who designed the system would care to enlighten us on.
This is probably on the edge of what was acceptable as a random event like a misfire that doesn't get reported until it starts occurring all the time.
If the event were to illuminate a check engine light I guaranty you they will replace the expensive actuator then discovering the real cause of the problem which is the strainer that can be replaced cheaply. This is where people get taken when they go to the dealer for service because of a lack of understanding by the techs who are not engineers.
Last edited by Devh; 10-25-14 at 10:32 AM.
10-25-14, 10:11 AM
#56
Who is "everyone"? I don't ever recall more than just one or two members THEORIZING that it MAY be a transmission issue. If you look at how the VVT system works, you'll see that there's more to it than just a regular injection system. That said, I agree that the trans needs to be serviced regularly, contrary to what the American maintenance manual states. Also, the hesitation ONLY appears AFTER an oil change....it's not random.
I hope DevH jumps in here about how the VVT-I system works and explain better than I, how this hesitation can manifest through wrong oil use, etc.
I hope DevH jumps in here about how the VVT-I system works and explain better than I, how this hesitation can manifest through wrong oil use, etc.
10-25-14, 10:14 AM
#57
Pole Position
I wouldn't base a video on anecdotal proof that it's a transmission issue. Maybe the guy in the video has a transmission issue. Maybe the guy has a low power event and the transmission selected a lower gear based on the load since it's computer controlled.
I like to look at the history of the car and it seems like owners were reporting a problem that occurs after an oil change and after a few hundred miles the condition subsides. Toyota's VVT system is different then Honda's but one thing they have in common across the board is nearly the same kind of technology which this condition has been seen. Specifically the oil strainers on the VVT oil control actuator that get clogged up with hard varnish deposits. The source of these deposits are usually from cars that run up high millage on regular oil or those that have changed to Synthetic oil which then cleans off the deposits that gets clogged at the strainers.
There might be a threshold before a check engine light will be illuminated for a bad actuator which has not been reached yet, but will cause this buggy condition. The actuator going bad is probably based on a resistance feed back rather then a oil flow problem. Again it opens of other avenues that lead to more speculation that only an engineer who designed the system would care to enlighten us on.
This is probably on the edge of what was acceptable as a random event like a misfire that doesn't get reported until it starts occurring all the time.
If the event were to illuminate a check engine light I guaranty you they will replace the expensive actuator then discovering the real cause of the problem which is the strainer that can be replaced cheaply. This is where people get taken when they go to the dealer for service because of a lack of understanding by the techs who are not engineers.
I like to look at the history of the car and it seems like owners were reporting a problem that occurs after an oil change and after a few hundred miles the condition subsides. Toyota's VVT system is different then Honda's but one thing they have in common across the board is nearly the same kind of technology which this condition has been seen. Specifically the oil strainers on the VVT oil control actuator that get clogged up with hard varnish deposits. The source of these deposits are usually from cars that run up high millage on regular oil or those that have changed to Synthetic oil which then cleans off the deposits that gets clogged at the strainers.
There might be a threshold before a check engine light will be illuminated for a bad actuator which has not been reached yet, but will cause this buggy condition. The actuator going bad is probably based on a resistance feed back rather then a oil flow problem. Again it opens of other avenues that lead to more speculation that only an engineer who designed the system would care to enlighten us on.
This is probably on the edge of what was acceptable as a random event like a misfire that doesn't get reported until it starts occurring all the time.
If the event were to illuminate a check engine light I guaranty you they will replace the expensive actuator then discovering the real cause of the problem which is the strainer that can be replaced cheaply. This is where people get taken when they go to the dealer for service because of a lack of understanding by the techs who are not engineers.
You're absolutely right, one video explains little in the grand scheme of things, but in that video it doesn't appear to be a VVT problem because the rpms are there...the speed is not. Too me that is a transmission issue. I could be wrong, lord knows it wouldn't be the first time. Lol!
So what you are saying is that a fresh oil change causes hesitation for a couple of hundred miles because synthetic oil frees up varnish deposits and clogs screens on the vvt? I guess that could happen. The thing is though that many people are changing oil regularly on this site and using the proper oil type. And I'd also find it hard to believe lexus would design a VVT system with that small of a tolerance to oil flow. I've seen videos on engines that have been abused regarding oil changes having this problem...the engines were torn down and the sludge was an inch thick. I don't think that is the case on these engines, driven by responsible people, with low miles on their vehicles. But hey, you could be 100% correct.
Personally I haven't experienced this problem yet (and hope I never do). I change the oil regularly with synthetic, replace the filter, etc.
10-25-14, 11:24 AM
#58
Fair enough, but shouldn't a transmission know what power event is taking place with the driving situation? Engine speed, load, temperature, etc? And if so, it should shift accordingly.
You're absolutely right, one video explains little in the grand scheme of things, but in that video it doesn't appear to be a VVT problem because the rpms are there...the speed is not. Too me that is a transmission issue. I could be wrong, lord knows it wouldn't be the first time. Lol!
So what you are saying is that a fresh oil change causes hesitation for a couple of hundred miles because synthetic oil frees up varnish deposits and clogs screens on the vvt? I guess that could happen. The thing is though that many people are changing oil regularly on this site and using the proper oil type. And I'd also find it hard to believe lexus would design a VVT system with that small of a tolerance to oil flow. I've seen videos on engines that have been abused regarding oil changes having this problem...the engines were torn down and the sludge was an inch thick. I don't think that is the case on these engines, driven by responsible people, with low miles on their vehicles. But hey, you could be 100% correct.
Personally I haven't experienced this problem yet (and hope I never do). I change the oil regularly with synthetic, replace the filter, etc.
You're absolutely right, one video explains little in the grand scheme of things, but in that video it doesn't appear to be a VVT problem because the rpms are there...the speed is not. Too me that is a transmission issue. I could be wrong, lord knows it wouldn't be the first time. Lol!
So what you are saying is that a fresh oil change causes hesitation for a couple of hundred miles because synthetic oil frees up varnish deposits and clogs screens on the vvt? I guess that could happen. The thing is though that many people are changing oil regularly on this site and using the proper oil type. And I'd also find it hard to believe lexus would design a VVT system with that small of a tolerance to oil flow. I've seen videos on engines that have been abused regarding oil changes having this problem...the engines were torn down and the sludge was an inch thick. I don't think that is the case on these engines, driven by responsible people, with low miles on their vehicles. But hey, you could be 100% correct.
Personally I haven't experienced this problem yet (and hope I never do). I change the oil regularly with synthetic, replace the filter, etc.
In regard to the transmission, these new ones like what you find in BMW and Mercedes are computer driven. The BMW I owned had one of these types of transmissions and I read the engineering specs on them. Because the transmission computer is now in the over all computer loop it works in tandem to engine conditions which I suspect makes changes to the gearing to optimize it with a greater degree of flexibility for power and fuel efficiency.
I could be that it decides to select a gear based on the amount of actual engine load in relation to the drive by wire throttle position and therefor selected a lower gear because it felt the cars lack of power. I don't know but I'm placing my bets there just because I have seen these kind of transmission act schizophrenic from time to time.
Regular oil changes using dino oil would probably be just fine even with deposit formation as long as the oil is not changed to synthetic. Considering this issue is starting to manifest it's self lately it seems to coincide with the age and millage of this car and the switchover to Toyota synthetic oil recommendation at the dealer especially for those that get their cars serviced regularly.
Lets say a car like mine that is a 2011 that has 20k miles on it and now the dealer recommends Toyota synthetic, then I would be spared since there is probably a lot less build up. But how about a 2007 that has over 60k that has regular oil changes at the dealership and then the dealer recommends synthetic.
10-25-14, 12:45 PM
#59
Pole Position
It's an interesting discussion. I like speculation which can point us in the right direction.
In regard to the transmission, these new ones like what you find in BMW and Mercedes are computer driven. The BMW I owned had one of these types of transmissions and I read the engineering specs on them. Because the transmission computer is now in the over all computer loop it works in tandem to engine conditions which I suspect makes changes to the gearing to optimize it with a greater degree of flexibility for power and fuel efficiency.
I could be that it decides to select a gear based on the amount of actual engine load in relation to the drive by wire throttle position and therefor selected a lower gear because it felt the cars lack of power. I don't know but I'm placing my bets there just because I have seen these kind of transmission act schizophrenic from time to time.
Regular oil changes using dino oil would probably be just fine even with deposit formation as long as the oil is not changed to synthetic. Considering this issue is starting to manifest it's self lately it seems to coincide with the age and millage of this car and the switchover to Toyota synthetic oil recommendation at the dealer especially for those that get their cars serviced regularly.
Lets say a car like mine that is a 2011 that has 20k miles on it and now the dealer recommends Toyota synthetic, then I would be spared since there is probably a lot less build up. But how about a 2007 that has over 60k that has regular oil changes at the dealership and then the dealer recommends synthetic.
In regard to the transmission, these new ones like what you find in BMW and Mercedes are computer driven. The BMW I owned had one of these types of transmissions and I read the engineering specs on them. Because the transmission computer is now in the over all computer loop it works in tandem to engine conditions which I suspect makes changes to the gearing to optimize it with a greater degree of flexibility for power and fuel efficiency.
I could be that it decides to select a gear based on the amount of actual engine load in relation to the drive by wire throttle position and therefor selected a lower gear because it felt the cars lack of power. I don't know but I'm placing my bets there just because I have seen these kind of transmission act schizophrenic from time to time.
Regular oil changes using dino oil would probably be just fine even with deposit formation as long as the oil is not changed to synthetic. Considering this issue is starting to manifest it's self lately it seems to coincide with the age and millage of this car and the switchover to Toyota synthetic oil recommendation at the dealer especially for those that get their cars serviced regularly.
Lets say a car like mine that is a 2011 that has 20k miles on it and now the dealer recommends Toyota synthetic, then I would be spared since there is probably a lot less build up. But how about a 2007 that has over 60k that has regular oil changes at the dealership and then the dealer recommends synthetic.
The thing that doesn't add up is that this seems to be happening at various times...not just right after an oil change. I've read from people that they thought it went away, then it came back. I've read it goes away 200-300 miles after an oil change. Then I've read it returns a few weeks later on some others. I think a possibility exists that it has nothing to do with oil all together, but what you are saying does make some sense.
So let me ask you this, have you ever seen a dirty transmission filter cause acceleration/hesitation problems? I have and considering this transmission is a "lifetime" fluid type, I can easily see how these filters get neglected. And think of all the clutch material that is in a 8 speed transmission...then remember how much this car weighs and the wear of that material that occurs to slow this thing down, or get it up a hill. The thing is constantly shifting. That clutch material has to go somewhere, most likely it's in the filter. Hey it's just another way to look at it.
I will say this, the week after I bought this car I would mash the gas pedal just to see what it had for power...there would be a hesitation before the thing took off like a rocket. I have since changed the tranny fluid and filter and I don't think it's there anymore. Then again my car wasn't doing what was in that youtube video.
10-25-14, 02:29 PM
#60
Lexus Fanatic
Both times I did the oil change, the hesitation manifested itself IMMEDIATELY, so I KNOW it's associated with oil changes in my case. The problem went away after a week or so or about 500 miles. This is the norm.
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DrQuality (08-05-21)