LS460 vs S550 vs BMW 7 series
#16
I hope you have better luck with someone else at the dealership. Try the Sales manager of Fleet Sales manager. Or try a different dealership. I bought my 2008 LS at one dealership (best price), but have my servicing done at another one. Works for me.
"Don't blame the snake for the snake oil salesman. Some snake oil is wonderful."
"Don't blame the snake for the snake oil salesman. Some snake oil is wonderful."
#17
Lexus Test Driver
WOW, I think this fellow member is making the right choice though. Only because he should get what he wants but, it doesnt make for a very informative convo when we discuss issues we have had with dealerships/salesman. Its all part of the package. The product/salesman/dealership is a package for me anyway. That said, my Lexus has been reliable and for the most part that covered up the bad incidents.
It made me go to Benz before. It has also had me on the fence again if I should get a Benz or Lexus due to treatment and honesty! Yes, Lexus is the better deal but, for me treatment is tied in to who I give my hard earned money. Lexus still has a small chance to get my money because I like the cars and Im still happy overall with my LS430!! Hpe the best for the thread starter that he has great years with his BMW. I wish only good for folks. L.G.N.M
It made me go to Benz before. It has also had me on the fence again if I should get a Benz or Lexus due to treatment and honesty! Yes, Lexus is the better deal but, for me treatment is tied in to who I give my hard earned money. Lexus still has a small chance to get my money because I like the cars and Im still happy overall with my LS430!! Hpe the best for the thread starter that he has great years with his BMW. I wish only good for folks. L.G.N.M
#18
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Car Salesmen
Couldn't agree more with your comments. All the hard work of a dealership can be expired by just hiring old GM and Ford salespeople. People just want to buy a car fairly. There is a reason why most people hate to enter a showroom?
#19
Lexus Champion
No doubt the LS460 is a good car and the "safe" pick out of the three. For me, it would be a toss up between the 7 Series and the S Class. Love the 10inch lcd display on the 7 series and the revised I-drive is bearable. But I love the 2010 S Class, especially after the exterior refresh.
No losers in this class of cars and each caters to a specific demographic.
#20
Oh, and BTW, my 460L provides at least a 20% quieter ride compared to the BMW and 10% compared to the Mercedes cars I test drove. Test results where taken using a top of the line electronic db meter equipped with fast sampling.
Which ever you choose, all 3 very nice cars. Good Luck!
Which ever you choose, all 3 very nice cars. Good Luck!
There is a new 2010 E Coupe, it replaced the CLK.
#21
Lexus Champion
#22
Driver
I was at the LA auto show not long ago and saw the best luxury car for the money - 2011 Equus.
It will be interesting to see the actual test reviews in aug or sept or oct.
It will be interesting to see the actual test reviews in aug or sept or oct.
#23
Lexus Test Driver
iTrader: (1)
I just have no tollerance for unreliable vehicles these days. My local MB dealer and local Lexus dealer are both great (same owners, actually), but regardless of how pleasant it might be to go there, after repeated warranty visits (like my last MB) it gets very tiresome and I just lose respect for the vehicle. If the dealer was a ***** on top of that, I'd definitely be done. Given the choice, I'd chose a ***** dealer and a reliable vehicle long before a wonderful dealer and an unreliable vehicle (considering the 3 cars in question here).
#25
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Funnly enough, I just made that switch
I've owned 5 Lexus cars in my life. An ES 300, a GS 300, an LS 400, an SC 430 and an LS 460. I stepped away from Lexus for several years between the first three and last two of those cars. It was a very big mistake.
I started this sad tale with buying a 2008 Mercedes S550. It wasn't a particularly bad car, but it also wasn't a particularly good car. It had a few minor problems with reliability. Engine light came on and I had to take it back 3 times to finally fix it. A standard service charge, oil change etc.. was either $500 or $1000. No matter what the A-B Mercedes service schedule says.
My 2008 S550 had 20,000 miles on it when I bought it. I had to pay $700 to add iPod integration. This placed a very sparse menu for controlling the ipod behind the S550's speedometer. Completely separate from the rest of the command menus which were on the LCD in the middle of the car's dashboard.
After adding the ipod integration the entire command system on the car froze several times. The car needed to go back and forth to Mercedes service several times before they finally upgrade the command system. The car also had no default bluetooth. I needed to pay an extra $500 for a bluetooth adapter to hook my phone up to the car. The best way I can describe the performance of this adapter would be "Flaky".
This car is supposed to be Mercedes Flagship product, but its tech was so outdated and crappy.
The command system continued to crash on the car until the day I sold it. Add the above minor reliability issues to some REALLY bad service treatment at the hands of the Mercedes Gestapo and I was done with the car. I went on to a second hand BMW 750LI, Monaco blue with individual series trim.
This 2007 750LI had 25,000 miles on it when I purchased it. It had a 6 disk in dash CD changer and a 15 disk DVD changer in the trunk. It even had night vision. The MSRP for this car new was $105,000.00. Because of the CD/DVD player I could not get any integrated iPod support. Logic 7 surround with aux iPod. It sounds, well as bad as it sounds. The interior was Tobacco brown leather seating with black Alcantera headliner. A visually nice combo, but it always felt dim and dirty on the inside no matter what I did with it. My fault for buying that colour I guess.
The BMW iDrive system is a piece of junk. It was impossible to understand and useless trying to find what you wanted with it. Good luck programming the Navigation. After nearly 2 years I could not figure out how to adjust the airflow in the car.
The style of the cockpit of any BMW is a very sparse and functional place. No part of any switch, button or trim panel on the interior was very welcoming or particularly nice to be around for any amount of time. Its hard to describe this sensation, but trust me, hang around the inside of a BMW for several hours and then step in to a Lexus. You'll know just what I mean.
I had silver trim on the top of the doors of the car, the window sills and windows. It ALL turned CLOUDY and dirty looking. All the same silver trim on the bottom of the doors, wheel arches etc was fine, not cloudy at all. All of this trim is factory installed btw, its not an aftermarket add on or even an option as far as I am aware. When I spoke to BMW about this, at my first service, and subsequent services, I did not get a good response. BMW service and BMW corporate both said " You washed it wrong. You ran it through a car wash that did this".
As far as I am concerned this is not possible. Common sense states that It was a manufacturing defect.
After much fighting with BMW corporate, all I got was a big fat @#$ you.
The Drivers seat on on 750 would randomly inflate the posture support. In the end I took it back 4 times to BMW in Naperville IL to fix it. The seat was still doing the same thing on the day I traded it in.
The drivers side door handle sensor on my BMW 750LI stopped working when unlocking the door by just touching it. The passengers side and both rear passenger doors continued to work to unlock the door by just touching them. BMW's answer ?. You let the drivers key fob rechargeable battery run down and that's why it won't open the door. Think about this response in light of my previous statements about where else it would continue to work.
After pointing out the BLINDINGLY BLOODY OBVIOUS to the service manager at BMW they agreed to take the car in to fix it. They said they adjusted something in the center console glove box to fix it. When I traded the car in the door handle they fixed, was still broken.
I started up the BMW 750 one day about a week before I traded it in. It sat in my garage running the starter motor over and over trying to turn over the car's engine for almost 3 minutes. I finally got it to stop by putting the key in and taking it out again several times. When it stopped, I started it again and it started first try. I was done, the car had to go.
I now own a 2007 LS460 which when I bought it had 22,000 miles on it. I also own a 2007 SC430 which when I bought it only 8,000 miles on it.
When I go to Lexus service it feels like I'm being treated like a king. The interior of the Lexus service bay and waiting areas are simply magnificent. They are luxurious. I must state I've had no problems with either car, and I've had them for several months now. My service visits were for just normal services.
My LS does not drive with the same vigor and driver feed back as my BMW 750 did. My S550 looked better than my LS does now. I think the LS looks too much like an ES 350.
Having said that I LOVE my LS460. I also really LOVE my SC430. The look and feel of the inside of a Lexus is awesome. I think its the smell of the leather an the feel of every surface you touch. The tech on my LS460 is outstanding. The build quality on Lexus cars can be compared to the quality and care taken in building the finest Swiss watch.
In my very humble opinion and after my awful experiences there is simply no question when it comes to choosing between an LS 460, a Mercedes S550 and BMW 750.
FOR GOD's SAKE BUY THE LEXUS !!!!
I started this sad tale with buying a 2008 Mercedes S550. It wasn't a particularly bad car, but it also wasn't a particularly good car. It had a few minor problems with reliability. Engine light came on and I had to take it back 3 times to finally fix it. A standard service charge, oil change etc.. was either $500 or $1000. No matter what the A-B Mercedes service schedule says.
My 2008 S550 had 20,000 miles on it when I bought it. I had to pay $700 to add iPod integration. This placed a very sparse menu for controlling the ipod behind the S550's speedometer. Completely separate from the rest of the command menus which were on the LCD in the middle of the car's dashboard.
After adding the ipod integration the entire command system on the car froze several times. The car needed to go back and forth to Mercedes service several times before they finally upgrade the command system. The car also had no default bluetooth. I needed to pay an extra $500 for a bluetooth adapter to hook my phone up to the car. The best way I can describe the performance of this adapter would be "Flaky".
This car is supposed to be Mercedes Flagship product, but its tech was so outdated and crappy.
The command system continued to crash on the car until the day I sold it. Add the above minor reliability issues to some REALLY bad service treatment at the hands of the Mercedes Gestapo and I was done with the car. I went on to a second hand BMW 750LI, Monaco blue with individual series trim.
This 2007 750LI had 25,000 miles on it when I purchased it. It had a 6 disk in dash CD changer and a 15 disk DVD changer in the trunk. It even had night vision. The MSRP for this car new was $105,000.00. Because of the CD/DVD player I could not get any integrated iPod support. Logic 7 surround with aux iPod. It sounds, well as bad as it sounds. The interior was Tobacco brown leather seating with black Alcantera headliner. A visually nice combo, but it always felt dim and dirty on the inside no matter what I did with it. My fault for buying that colour I guess.
The BMW iDrive system is a piece of junk. It was impossible to understand and useless trying to find what you wanted with it. Good luck programming the Navigation. After nearly 2 years I could not figure out how to adjust the airflow in the car.
The style of the cockpit of any BMW is a very sparse and functional place. No part of any switch, button or trim panel on the interior was very welcoming or particularly nice to be around for any amount of time. Its hard to describe this sensation, but trust me, hang around the inside of a BMW for several hours and then step in to a Lexus. You'll know just what I mean.
I had silver trim on the top of the doors of the car, the window sills and windows. It ALL turned CLOUDY and dirty looking. All the same silver trim on the bottom of the doors, wheel arches etc was fine, not cloudy at all. All of this trim is factory installed btw, its not an aftermarket add on or even an option as far as I am aware. When I spoke to BMW about this, at my first service, and subsequent services, I did not get a good response. BMW service and BMW corporate both said " You washed it wrong. You ran it through a car wash that did this".
As far as I am concerned this is not possible. Common sense states that It was a manufacturing defect.
After much fighting with BMW corporate, all I got was a big fat @#$ you.
The Drivers seat on on 750 would randomly inflate the posture support. In the end I took it back 4 times to BMW in Naperville IL to fix it. The seat was still doing the same thing on the day I traded it in.
The drivers side door handle sensor on my BMW 750LI stopped working when unlocking the door by just touching it. The passengers side and both rear passenger doors continued to work to unlock the door by just touching them. BMW's answer ?. You let the drivers key fob rechargeable battery run down and that's why it won't open the door. Think about this response in light of my previous statements about where else it would continue to work.
After pointing out the BLINDINGLY BLOODY OBVIOUS to the service manager at BMW they agreed to take the car in to fix it. They said they adjusted something in the center console glove box to fix it. When I traded the car in the door handle they fixed, was still broken.
I started up the BMW 750 one day about a week before I traded it in. It sat in my garage running the starter motor over and over trying to turn over the car's engine for almost 3 minutes. I finally got it to stop by putting the key in and taking it out again several times. When it stopped, I started it again and it started first try. I was done, the car had to go.
I now own a 2007 LS460 which when I bought it had 22,000 miles on it. I also own a 2007 SC430 which when I bought it only 8,000 miles on it.
When I go to Lexus service it feels like I'm being treated like a king. The interior of the Lexus service bay and waiting areas are simply magnificent. They are luxurious. I must state I've had no problems with either car, and I've had them for several months now. My service visits were for just normal services.
My LS does not drive with the same vigor and driver feed back as my BMW 750 did. My S550 looked better than my LS does now. I think the LS looks too much like an ES 350.
Having said that I LOVE my LS460. I also really LOVE my SC430. The look and feel of the inside of a Lexus is awesome. I think its the smell of the leather an the feel of every surface you touch. The tech on my LS460 is outstanding. The build quality on Lexus cars can be compared to the quality and care taken in building the finest Swiss watch.
In my very humble opinion and after my awful experiences there is simply no question when it comes to choosing between an LS 460, a Mercedes S550 and BMW 750.
FOR GOD's SAKE BUY THE LEXUS !!!!
#26
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Update
Well I have actually started test driving at a minimum two of each models. My first experience with the Lexus is the smoothness of the ride. Its far superior to that of my current 7 series, however the thing that bothers me the most is the wind noise. Which was very noticeable on both cars.
This weekend I will be driving the Mercedes to see if anything makes me feel at home.
This weekend I will be driving the Mercedes to see if anything makes me feel at home.
#27
Well I have actually started test driving at a minimum two of each models. My first experience with the Lexus is the smoothness of the ride. Its far superior to that of my current 7 series, however the thing that bothers me the most is the wind noise. Which was very noticeable on both cars.
This weekend I will be driving the Mercedes to see if anything makes me feel at home.
This weekend I will be driving the Mercedes to see if anything makes me feel at home.
I've owned 5 Lexus cars in my life. An ES 300, a GS 300, an LS 400, an SC 430 and an LS 460. I stepped away from Lexus for several years between the first three and last two of those cars. It was a very big mistake.
I started this sad tale with buying a 2008 Mercedes S550. It wasn't a particularly bad car, but it also wasn't a particularly good car. It had a few minor problems with reliability. Engine light came on and I had to take it back 3 times to finally fix it. A standard service charge, oil change etc.. was either $500 or $1000. No matter what the A-B Mercedes service schedule says.
My 2008 S550 had 20,000 miles on it when I bought it. I had to pay $700 to add iPod integration. This placed a very sparse menu for controlling the ipod behind the S550's speedometer. Completely separate from the rest of the command menus which were on the LCD in the middle of the car's dashboard.
After adding the ipod integration the entire command system on the car froze several times. The car needed to go back and forth to Mercedes service several times before they finally upgrade the command system. The car also had no default bluetooth. I needed to pay an extra $500 for a bluetooth adapter to hook my phone up to the car. The best way I can describe the performance of this adapter would be "Flaky".
This car is supposed to be Mercedes Flagship product, but its tech was so outdated and crappy.
The command system continued to crash on the car until the day I sold it. Add the above minor reliability issues to some REALLY bad service treatment at the hands of the Mercedes Gestapo and I was done with the car. I went on to a second hand BMW 750LI, Monaco blue with individual series trim.
This 2007 750LI had 25,000 miles on it when I purchased it. It had a 6 disk in dash CD changer and a 15 disk DVD changer in the trunk. It even had night vision. The MSRP for this car new was $105,000.00. Because of the CD/DVD player I could not get any integrated iPod support. Logic 7 surround with aux iPod. It sounds, well as bad as it sounds. The interior was Tobacco brown leather seating with black Alcantera headliner. A visually nice combo, but it always felt dim and dirty on the inside no matter what I did with it. My fault for buying that colour I guess.
The BMW iDrive system is a piece of junk. It was impossible to understand and useless trying to find what you wanted with it. Good luck programming the Navigation. After nearly 2 years I could not figure out how to adjust the airflow in the car.
The style of the cockpit of any BMW is a very sparse and functional place. No part of any switch, button or trim panel on the interior was very welcoming or particularly nice to be around for any amount of time. Its hard to describe this sensation, but trust me, hang around the inside of a BMW for several hours and then step in to a Lexus. You'll know just what I mean.
I had silver trim on the top of the doors of the car, the window sills and windows. It ALL turned CLOUDY and dirty looking. All the same silver trim on the bottom of the doors, wheel arches etc was fine, not cloudy at all. All of this trim is factory installed btw, its not an aftermarket add on or even an option as far as I am aware. When I spoke to BMW about this, at my first service, and subsequent services, I did not get a good response. BMW service and BMW corporate both said " You washed it wrong. You ran it through a car wash that did this".
As far as I am concerned this is not possible. Common sense states that It was a manufacturing defect.
After much fighting with BMW corporate, all I got was a big fat @#$ you.
The Drivers seat on on 750 would randomly inflate the posture support. In the end I took it back 4 times to BMW in Naperville IL to fix it. The seat was still doing the same thing on the day I traded it in.
The drivers side door handle sensor on my BMW 750LI stopped working when unlocking the door by just touching it. The passengers side and both rear passenger doors continued to work to unlock the door by just touching them. BMW's answer ?. You let the drivers key fob rechargeable battery run down and that's why it won't open the door. Think about this response in light of my previous statements about where else it would continue to work.
After pointing out the BLINDINGLY BLOODY OBVIOUS to the service manager at BMW they agreed to take the car in to fix it. They said they adjusted something in the center console glove box to fix it. When I traded the car in the door handle they fixed, was still broken.
I started up the BMW 750 one day about a week before I traded it in. It sat in my garage running the starter motor over and over trying to turn over the car's engine for almost 3 minutes. I finally got it to stop by putting the key in and taking it out again several times. When it stopped, I started it again and it started first try. I was done, the car had to go.
I now own a 2007 LS460 which when I bought it had 22,000 miles on it. I also own a 2007 SC430 which when I bought it only 8,000 miles on it.
When I go to Lexus service it feels like I'm being treated like a king. The interior of the Lexus service bay and waiting areas are simply magnificent. They are luxurious. I must state I've had no problems with either car, and I've had them for several months now. My service visits were for just normal services.
My LS does not drive with the same vigor and driver feed back as my BMW 750 did. My S550 looked better than my LS does now. I think the LS looks too much like an ES 350.
Having said that I LOVE my LS460. I also really LOVE my SC430. The look and feel of the inside of a Lexus is awesome. I think its the smell of the leather an the feel of every surface you touch. The tech on my LS460 is outstanding. The build quality on Lexus cars can be compared to the quality and care taken in building the finest Swiss watch.
In my very humble opinion and after my awful experiences there is simply no question when it comes to choosing between an LS 460, a Mercedes S550 and BMW 750.
FOR GOD's SAKE BUY THE LEXUS !!!!
I started this sad tale with buying a 2008 Mercedes S550. It wasn't a particularly bad car, but it also wasn't a particularly good car. It had a few minor problems with reliability. Engine light came on and I had to take it back 3 times to finally fix it. A standard service charge, oil change etc.. was either $500 or $1000. No matter what the A-B Mercedes service schedule says.
My 2008 S550 had 20,000 miles on it when I bought it. I had to pay $700 to add iPod integration. This placed a very sparse menu for controlling the ipod behind the S550's speedometer. Completely separate from the rest of the command menus which were on the LCD in the middle of the car's dashboard.
After adding the ipod integration the entire command system on the car froze several times. The car needed to go back and forth to Mercedes service several times before they finally upgrade the command system. The car also had no default bluetooth. I needed to pay an extra $500 for a bluetooth adapter to hook my phone up to the car. The best way I can describe the performance of this adapter would be "Flaky".
This car is supposed to be Mercedes Flagship product, but its tech was so outdated and crappy.
The command system continued to crash on the car until the day I sold it. Add the above minor reliability issues to some REALLY bad service treatment at the hands of the Mercedes Gestapo and I was done with the car. I went on to a second hand BMW 750LI, Monaco blue with individual series trim.
This 2007 750LI had 25,000 miles on it when I purchased it. It had a 6 disk in dash CD changer and a 15 disk DVD changer in the trunk. It even had night vision. The MSRP for this car new was $105,000.00. Because of the CD/DVD player I could not get any integrated iPod support. Logic 7 surround with aux iPod. It sounds, well as bad as it sounds. The interior was Tobacco brown leather seating with black Alcantera headliner. A visually nice combo, but it always felt dim and dirty on the inside no matter what I did with it. My fault for buying that colour I guess.
The BMW iDrive system is a piece of junk. It was impossible to understand and useless trying to find what you wanted with it. Good luck programming the Navigation. After nearly 2 years I could not figure out how to adjust the airflow in the car.
The style of the cockpit of any BMW is a very sparse and functional place. No part of any switch, button or trim panel on the interior was very welcoming or particularly nice to be around for any amount of time. Its hard to describe this sensation, but trust me, hang around the inside of a BMW for several hours and then step in to a Lexus. You'll know just what I mean.
I had silver trim on the top of the doors of the car, the window sills and windows. It ALL turned CLOUDY and dirty looking. All the same silver trim on the bottom of the doors, wheel arches etc was fine, not cloudy at all. All of this trim is factory installed btw, its not an aftermarket add on or even an option as far as I am aware. When I spoke to BMW about this, at my first service, and subsequent services, I did not get a good response. BMW service and BMW corporate both said " You washed it wrong. You ran it through a car wash that did this".
As far as I am concerned this is not possible. Common sense states that It was a manufacturing defect.
After much fighting with BMW corporate, all I got was a big fat @#$ you.
The Drivers seat on on 750 would randomly inflate the posture support. In the end I took it back 4 times to BMW in Naperville IL to fix it. The seat was still doing the same thing on the day I traded it in.
The drivers side door handle sensor on my BMW 750LI stopped working when unlocking the door by just touching it. The passengers side and both rear passenger doors continued to work to unlock the door by just touching them. BMW's answer ?. You let the drivers key fob rechargeable battery run down and that's why it won't open the door. Think about this response in light of my previous statements about where else it would continue to work.
After pointing out the BLINDINGLY BLOODY OBVIOUS to the service manager at BMW they agreed to take the car in to fix it. They said they adjusted something in the center console glove box to fix it. When I traded the car in the door handle they fixed, was still broken.
I started up the BMW 750 one day about a week before I traded it in. It sat in my garage running the starter motor over and over trying to turn over the car's engine for almost 3 minutes. I finally got it to stop by putting the key in and taking it out again several times. When it stopped, I started it again and it started first try. I was done, the car had to go.
I now own a 2007 LS460 which when I bought it had 22,000 miles on it. I also own a 2007 SC430 which when I bought it only 8,000 miles on it.
When I go to Lexus service it feels like I'm being treated like a king. The interior of the Lexus service bay and waiting areas are simply magnificent. They are luxurious. I must state I've had no problems with either car, and I've had them for several months now. My service visits were for just normal services.
My LS does not drive with the same vigor and driver feed back as my BMW 750 did. My S550 looked better than my LS does now. I think the LS looks too much like an ES 350.
Having said that I LOVE my LS460. I also really LOVE my SC430. The look and feel of the inside of a Lexus is awesome. I think its the smell of the leather an the feel of every surface you touch. The tech on my LS460 is outstanding. The build quality on Lexus cars can be compared to the quality and care taken in building the finest Swiss watch.
In my very humble opinion and after my awful experiences there is simply no question when it comes to choosing between an LS 460, a Mercedes S550 and BMW 750.
FOR GOD's SAKE BUY THE LEXUS !!!!
#28
Lexus Test Driver
iTrader: (1)
ellingham, thanks for the detailed summary of your experiences. On the S550, if the Ipod integration hadn't been important to you and you hadn't done the install (which, as I read it, seemed to have triggered a lot of the gremlins), what would have been your overall comparison with the LS? The S550 is the only luxury car that I'm kinda interested in other than some model or other of an LS. I don't think I could bring myself to take a chance on another MB, but I'm watching the '07 S550s to see how they seem to hold up, reliability wise.
#29
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/#/vehi...C&vc=E&yr=2010
I bought it in 09 so I made a mistake please shoot me in the head for my ignorance so you feel gratification.
#30
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ellingham, thanks for the detailed summary of your experiences. On the S550, if the Ipod integration hadn't been important to you and you hadn't done the install (which, as I read it, seemed to have triggered a lot of the gremlins), what would have been your overall comparison with the LS? The S550 is the only luxury car that I'm kinda interested in other than some model or other of an LS. I don't think I could bring myself to take a chance on another MB, but I'm watching the '07 S550s to see how they seem to hold up, reliability wise.
That in itself is not a big issue, but it does point out something about Mercedes I did not like. Mercedes service does not in anyway give a rats *** about you the Mercedes owner. While I found BMW service to be wholly incompetent and desperately incapable of doing even the simplest of things correctly, they did try. Mercedes didn't even try. They simply just did not care.
My S550 broke down more than I would have liked, and when it did, it was not a good experience trying to get it fixed. Not the kind of experience I would have expected as an owner of their flagship product.
The S550 itself left very little in the way of an impression. It was not as engaging to drive as the 750Li, and it was not as luxurious on the inside as the LS 460. It was quiet, it was ...
I give up. I don't really know what else to say about it.