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LS460 Wind Noise Fix (continued discussion)

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Old 04-24-08, 08:45 PM   #31
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Has anyone used my information? And have you gotten good results? I continue to be amazed at the improvement in my car. It is sooo much better than it was.

I have tried every way I know to get this information to Lexus so that they can give some relief to all those who are anguishing about the wind noise. I got a sort of threatening email from them telling me that they don't accept unsolicited ideas.

If I disappear from this site you will know that they are blocking me.
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Old 04-24-08, 10:02 PM   #32
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Well, I can kinda understand their situation. Same reasons companies don't take ideas for new inventions. People then sue claiming that something the companies designers/engineers legitimately came up with on their own was their (the claimaint's) invention just because the claimant sent a letter that probably was never even looked at.

In this case you need to have your dealer show your findings to Lexus. In this world of free-flowing information they'll hear about your find sooner or later. You probably won't get credit (or anything else) for figuring out the long-mysterious "wind noise issue", but all of the sudden there will be a TSB with exactly what you have shown here.

My '07 still seems fine but if they implement your idea I'll have the work done and see if the already satisfactory "silence" gets even better. You are a genius for figuring this out and deserve credit from Lexus. But it probably won't happen. So at the very least thank you and congrads from this LS460 owner!
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Old 04-25-08, 06:55 AM   #33
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Daryll40,

Thank you for your comments and words of wisdom.

It remains to be seen whether my information has widespread applicability. I haven’t had any feedback from anyone.

I want everyone to understand that I don’t have an agenda, other than to see that people who have the noise problem like I HAD get some relief. Lexus has my sympathy. I know that they did not do this intentionally. They have spent a lot of money replacing my windows, a lot of time talking to me, provided me loaner cars on several occasions and I can assure their efforts were genuine. In my many contacts with them I sensed that there was some real tension about this subject but they always kept a stiff-upper-lip, and they were always very courteous and gracious and we never spoke any harsh words.

I sent my information about the leaks that are under the trim to my dealership service rep on April 18 and told him that I had no desire to capitalize on it and that he could present it to Lexus and take credit for it. His response was that he would pass it on to Lexus. I assumed that meant that he was going to “pass it on” promptly. I sent him an email yesterday asking if he had any feedback from Lexus or if he had been able to use my information to help any of his other customers. His response was that he planned to give it to the Lexus rep the next time he came by. This guy oozes integrity, so I think he is just so beat-up over this issue he doesn’t appreciate the significance of my observation.

I am glad to hear that you are not having a noise problem with your car. From things that have been said in this forum, it is apparent that everyone doesn’t have the problems that I was having. And they should not run out and tear that piece of trim off or rush to their dealer with the expectation that their car can be made quieter – all cars have some noise, it has to do with physics. In a subsequent post I am going to show the words from the memo that I left in my car for the Lexus rep when I took my car in for that final evaluation that resulted in the “Sorry, there is nothing else we can do.” I think this will help everybody understand whether they have a problem like I HAD and can expect some improvement if they do the little sealing trick.

Thank you for your kind words. My discovery has more to do with luck than genius. I am a 66-year-old retiree with a modest education (barely made it through high school). Words cannot describe how I anguished over this problem - it was very irritating - for more than six months so I think finding a solution was a real necessity for me. It was either stop the problem or get a different car. I was real crazy about the car, except for that wind noise problem, and now everything is perfect. I think you will see from the memo to the Lexus rep (written on April 4 and presented on April 10) that I am going to post later, there are a lot of clues to what I found.

Regards,
Jeff (jmcraney)

Here are the words from Lexus telling me that they are not going to accept my input:

Dear Mr. McRaney:

Toyota wishes to express its appreciation for your interest in Toyota’s products and would like to thank you for taking the time to email.

As a matter of course, all correspondence received by Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. containing suggestions for new products, patents, testimonials, proposals, marketing or advertising ideas is forwarded to the Legal Services Group for reply.

Please be advised that it is the policy of Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. not to accept unsolicited ideas. The possibility of conflict between developments from within Toyota organizations and ideas submitted by interested persons, such as yourself, makes this policy necessary.

In regards to the above information, we regret that we cannot give consideration or advice to an idea.

Thank you again for thinking of Toyota.

Sincerely,
Legal Services Group
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Old 04-25-08, 07:00 AM   #34
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I still think that they will privately at least look at your findings and eventually we will see a TSB.
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Old 04-25-08, 07:04 AM   #35
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That's pretty much a form letter sent out by their legal department in response to suggestions regarding possible defects in their products. If they had accepted your idea, they would be admitting and acknowledging that they had a problem with one of their products. From a purely legal standpoint, that is not something Toyota/Lexus is going to admit.
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Old 04-25-08, 07:48 AM   #36
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There may be some of you who are wondering if you can expect a reduction in the noise level in your cars by doing the sealing under the trim that I described in a previous post in this forum. I expect that all 2007 LS460s are not exactly the same, for a variety of reasons, and you might not have the same problem that I had and doing the sealing might not give you the amazing results that I got. To help you decide whether you should try the sealing, I have decided to share with you the memo that I left in my car when I took it to the dealership on April 14 to have it looked at by the Lexus rep. That evaluation resulted in a “Sorry, there is nothing else we can do” passed on by the dealership rep and a subsequent “Sorry” call from the Lexus customer relations group. If you have the kind of problems that I described in my memo then sealing under the trim might provide you some relief. You should keep in mind that all cars have some wind noise and your car will never be perfect.

Here is the memo that I presented on April 14th:

April 4, 2008

Dear Lexus Representative,

Regarding my 2007 Lexus LS460 VIN JTHBL46F075051819.

Thank you for taking the time to look into my “wind noise” problem again. Before I contacted Sewell Lexus I had not looked at the Internet at the Lexus Users Forum where, you are probably aware, there is much discussion on this subject. I feel bad for you. What a mess. This sort of thing feeds on itself sometimes and often the criticism is over blown.

I have tried to be objective and fair about my concerns. First of all, I love my LS460, except for the wind noise. I traded in a 1997 LS400 that had 67,000 miles. As you can see I keep cars a long time, so how you resolve this problem will probably not have a big impact on your future sales.

It was apparent early on that there was some sort of air leak around the front windows but I kept trying to convince myself that it was my imagination. There also seemed to be a noise leak too. I often had the sensation that the window was not fully up or that the door was not closed fully. I would have cars pass me while I was stopped and I had the sensation that a window was partially down. And I noticed that as I increased speed that the noise level inside the car quickly overcame the audio system even though I had the ASL enabled – I am confident that I understand how to enable the ASL properly and that it is working as it is designed to. I don’t drive fast so I am not talking about speeds over 65 MPH. It seemed to be much noisier than my old car.

I took my car back to the dealership in January to tell them about my concerns and they said that there was a service bulletin to deal with the wind noise problem. It involved replacement of the glass in the front doors. Having that sort of thing done to a new car was a little disconcerting. But they did an impeccable job and I don’t have any concerns about that anymore.

After that there seemed to be some improvement in the noise problem. In trying to assess it I have used my 2004 Toyota Sienna as a reference. I noticed that when I am stopped in traffic that the Sienna has better isolation from the noise of cars that are passing. I would expect my new LS460 to be much quieter than it is. Also when I am driving my LS460 I notice noise from vehicles if they overtake me. This is much more evident when compared to my 1997 LS400. You might argue that this effect is due to the LS460 being quieter overall. But that is not my perception. The noise seems to come from somewhere on the front doors.

As for the wind noise: that has been a major problem, mainly because I have had great difficulty in understanding it and being sure if it is a problem or not. Sometimes it is barely noticeable and other times it is terrible irritating and even fatiguing.

Over the past couple of months I have tried to be hypersensitive to all aspects of this problem so that I can give you a chance to help me with it.

I tried driving the car down a perfectly smooth road on a day when the wind was calm and at 40 MPH it was as quiet as it could possibly be. I noticed that as I increased speed to 50 MPH there was slight increase in the noise over my left shoulder and that at 60 MPH this was very noticeable. You might again argue that this effect is due to the car being quiet overall. It would be difficult to resolve this without instrumentation to quantify the noise.

It finally came to me that the real problem happens on windy days.

I noticed that when I drove the car at 60 MPH and the wind was coming directly behind the car it was as quiet as it was at 40 MPH. But, when the car was driven into a headwind the noise level increased dramatically. Aerodynamically, it is kind of like driving 90 MPH, if you are driving 65 MPH and the head wind is 25 MPH. This effect becomes much worse if the wind is not coming from exactly 000 degrees relative to the motion of the car. For example, if the wind is coming from 045 degrees or 315 degrees relative to the motion of the car and the wind has a gust component too, it produces a kind of noise that is very irritating. Along with the roar there is a noticeable air leak around the front door windows – seems to be mainly in the front corners – that is sort of whoosh sound. This only happens under certain wind conditions. In fairness I have to admit that most cars don’t perform well in these sorts of conditions. But, my LS400 seemed to be much better than my new car.

I want to tell you about another observation that is sort of interesting. Recently, on a windy day (wind speed around 20 kts), I was driving on a circular ramp (cloverleaf), going about 25 MPH, to enter the freeway. As I drove around this ramp I changed the car heading 270 degrees. At some point in that rotation I noticed a sensation that the wind was blowing through my car. It was so noticeable that it caused me to consider the potential for rain to might leak in under certain conditions. I spoke to the Lexus service representative about this and he assured me that he is unaware of any rain leak reports for the LS460.

Recently I was driving approximately 35 MPH on a windy day, wind 15 MPH and gust to 25 MPH, and the wind direction relative to the motion of the car was about 120 degrees and the wind noise around the front door windows was very annoying.

The wind noise problems only occur under certain driving conditions that are not easy to demonstrate to you and it is not easy for me to immediately evaluate any fixes that you might implement. But I assure you there is something wrong.

A luxury automobile should not have this problem and I am very disappointed that I have acquired this problem at such a high price. It never occurred to me that I might have a problem like this with a Lexus.
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Old 04-25-08, 10:21 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcraney View Post
There may be some of you who are wondering if you can expect a reduction in the noise level in your cars by doing the sealing under the trim that I described in a previous post in this forum. I expect that all 2007 LS460s are not exactly the same, for a variety of reasons, and you might not have the same problem that I had and doing the sealing might not give you the amazing results that I got. To help you decide whether you should try the sealing, I have decided to share with you the memo that I left in my car when I took it to the dealership on April 14 to have it looked at by the Lexus rep. That evaluation resulted in a “Sorry, there is nothing else we can do” passed on by the dealership rep and a subsequent “Sorry” call from the Lexus customer relations group. If you have the kind of problems that I described in my memo then sealing under the trim might provide you some relief. You should keep in mind that all cars have some wind noise and your car will never be perfect.

Here is the memo that I presented on April 14th:

April 4, 2008

Dear Lexus Representative,

Regarding my 2007 Lexus LS460 VIN JTHBL46F075051819.

Thank you for taking the time to look into my “wind noise” problem again. Before I contacted Sewell Lexus I had not looked at the Internet at the Lexus Users Forum where, you are probably aware, there is much discussion on this subject. I feel bad for you. What a mess. This sort of thing feeds on itself sometimes and often the criticism is over blown.

I have tried to be objective and fair about my concerns. First of all, I love my LS460, except for the wind noise. I traded in a 1997 LS400 that had 67,000 miles. As you can see I keep cars a long time, so how you resolve this problem will probably not have a big impact on your future sales.

It was apparent early on that there was some sort of air leak around the front windows but I kept trying to convince myself that it was my imagination. There also seemed to be a noise leak too. I often had the sensation that the window was not fully up or that the door was not closed fully. I would have cars pass me while I was stopped and I had the sensation that a window was partially down. And I noticed that as I increased speed that the noise level inside the car quickly overcame the audio system even though I had the ASL enabled – I am confident that I understand how to enable the ASL properly and that it is working as it is designed to. I don’t drive fast so I am not talking about speeds over 65 MPH. It seemed to be much noisier than my old car.

I took my car back to the dealership in January to tell them about my concerns and they said that there was a service bulletin to deal with the wind noise problem. It involved replacement of the glass in the front doors. Having that sort of thing done to a new car was a little disconcerting. But they did an impeccable job and I don’t have any concerns about that anymore.

After that there seemed to be some improvement in the noise problem. In trying to assess it I have used my 2004 Toyota Sienna as a reference. I noticed that when I am stopped in traffic that the Sienna has better isolation from the noise of cars that are passing. I would expect my new LS460 to be much quieter than it is. Also when I am driving my LS460 I notice noise from vehicles if they overtake me. This is much more evident when compared to my 1997 LS400. You might argue that this effect is due to the LS460 being quieter overall. But that is not my perception. The noise seems to come from somewhere on the front doors.

As for the wind noise: that has been a major problem, mainly because I have had great difficulty in understanding it and being sure if it is a problem or not. Sometimes it is barely noticeable and other times it is terrible irritating and even fatiguing.

Over the past couple of months I have tried to be hypersensitive to all aspects of this problem so that I can give you a chance to help me with it.

I tried driving the car down a perfectly smooth road on a day when the wind was calm and at 40 MPH it was as quiet as it could possibly be. I noticed that as I increased speed to 50 MPH there was slight increase in the noise over my left shoulder and that at 60 MPH this was very noticeable. You might again argue that this effect is due to the car being quiet overall. It would be difficult to resolve this without instrumentation to quantify the noise.

It finally came to me that the real problem happens on windy days.

I noticed that when I drove the car at 60 MPH and the wind was coming directly behind the car it was as quiet as it was at 40 MPH. But, when the car was driven into a headwind the noise level increased dramatically. Aerodynamically, it is kind of like driving 90 MPH, if you are driving 65 MPH and the head wind is 25 MPH. This effect becomes much worse if the wind is not coming from exactly 000 degrees relative to the motion of the car. For example, if the wind is coming from 045 degrees or 315 degrees relative to the motion of the car and the wind has a gust component too, it produces a kind of noise that is very irritating. Along with the roar there is a noticeable air leak around the front door windows – seems to be mainly in the front corners – that is sort of whoosh sound. This only happens under certain wind conditions. In fairness I have to admit that most cars don’t perform well in these sorts of conditions. But, my LS400 seemed to be much better than my new car.

I want to tell you about another observation that is sort of interesting. Recently, on a windy day (wind speed around 20 kts), I was driving on a circular ramp (cloverleaf), going about 25 MPH, to enter the freeway. As I drove around this ramp I changed the car heading 270 degrees. At some point in that rotation I noticed a sensation that the wind was blowing through my car. It was so noticeable that it caused me to consider the potential for rain to might leak in under certain conditions. I spoke to the Lexus service representative about this and he assured me that he is unaware of any rain leak reports for the LS460.

Recently I was driving approximately 35 MPH on a windy day, wind 15 MPH and gust to 25 MPH, and the wind direction relative to the motion of the car was about 120 degrees and the wind noise around the front door windows was very annoying.

The wind noise problems only occur under certain driving conditions that are not easy to demonstrate to you and it is not easy for me to immediately evaluate any fixes that you might implement. But I assure you there is something wrong.

A luxury automobile should not have this problem and I am very disappointed that I have acquired this problem at such a high price. It never occurred to me that I might have a problem like this with a Lexus.
Jeff,

Keep up the great work! Please don't listen to some rather strange comments you are getting to your post. The documentation and resolve is nothing short of outstanding.

I too and may others feel exactly the same way you do about the problem but like the car. I'm not retired or close to it. My time is limited and any free time has been spent getting my bikes ready for the riding season.

I don't think most of the members here work on their cars so don't look for any quick repair responses.

The door repair is next on my list and I will do per your post. When they took my door panels off I'm left with squeaky door panels. After the fix I will lube all the clips and pressure points and fix the squeak as well like I planned to do.

What burns me is I paid 2k for an extended warranty over the stock warranty but it looks like I will have to get my hands dirty for the first time on this car to solve this problem.

Don't take Lexus's response to seriously. In my opinion they have a false perception of great or exceptional service but in reality they are very poor for many reasons.

Thanks for your post
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Old 04-25-08, 11:47 AM   #38
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Jeff,

I would also like to express my appreciation to you for all the work you have done to solve this problem. Your research on this subject is nothing short of amazing. I have forwarded your findings to my local Lexus dealer salesperson about 6 days ago. I instructed him to pass the infomation to the service department manager. But, as you might guess, I have heard nothing yet. I will call the salesman later today and find out where we stand at this point. I am not going to forget about it or more importantly let them forget about it.
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Old 04-25-08, 01:23 PM   #39
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Thanks for your support. Here are a couple of final thoughts and then it is time for me to let this go until we get some feedback.

I have not mentally reconciled what provides the major reduction in the noise level that I have noticed even when there is no wind and the car is sitting still. I also notice that I no longer have a sensation of cars passing me, other than those that are atypically noisy - that's a major change. I am not sure exactly what provides this drastic improvement. It could be closing those big gaps at the triangle-trim corners. Or, it could be that the triangle-trim was acting as a diaphragm. If that is the case then the sealant bead pattern that I used might be important. I chose that pattern to provide additional isolation from air leaks for the holes that are behind the trim piece. The sealant cross stripe might provide additional dampening for a diaphragm-effect if there is any. For you DIYers, you probably should use a bead pattern like mine or some variation, with that consideration in mind. If you are letting the pros do this for you, you will just have to trust their judgement.

And one other thing before I get a life and move on. When I was trying to get Lexus to help me I voiced a concern about rain getting in. I had the sensation that I might have rain in my lap under certain conditions. In retrospect there seems little chance of that from anything hidden by the trim. But, I think there is a very real possibility of getting a major quantity of water in the doors under certain wind-driven-rain conditions. It looks to me like there is a strong possibility water coming down the glass could go into that gap at the bottom of the triangle-trim if the wind is from certain angles. The doors probably have drain holes to keep water from staying in them in the event of a leak but those can get stopped up and anyway that is undesirable and preventable. So for you DIYers, be sure you get that gap at the bottom of the triangle-trim closed completely.

When I first posted my procedure it read something like "front passengers doors." I realize that was ambiguous and I have since edited it to make it read "front passenger and driver doors." The problem is bilateral so be sure you do both sides.
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Old 04-25-08, 02:11 PM   #40
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Once I saw Jeff's post, I dropped my car off at the dealer to have this fixed performed. My dealer had no issues doing it for me as they know I have been struggling with wind noise and Lexus since September of last year. Unfortunately, this fix did not improve my wind noise condition, but Jeff, your efforts are highly appreciated.
Thank you again,
Dmitry
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Old 04-25-08, 03:33 PM   #41
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Dmitry,

Thanks for the feedback - sorry to hear that you did not get any improvement.

One thing that I need to remind you of is that my original procedure (since edited) implied that the problem was with the front passenger door. It is a bilateral problem. You need to make sure that they did both sides.

Did they give you any indication that you had those big gaps like my car had? If yours looked like mine I am sure they would have told you about it.

Jeff
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Old 04-25-08, 03:58 PM   #42
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Are those covers only held on with glue or is there tabs that hold them on?
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Old 04-25-08, 04:14 PM   #43
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On my car they were put on with some double-sided tape and they have some locking fingers that are sort of one time things that provide a blind lock. The locking fingers will probably break off if your pull them off.
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Old 04-26-08, 07:45 AM   #44
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Jeff:

My 07 "L" is an early build and also has some wind noise starting at moderate speeds with winds at cetain speed, directions, and combination thereof. I intend to seal the plastic trim triangle at the outside perimeter using the blue masking tape and do a test run to see if there is any reduction in the noise before I pry the plastic fingers to install your suggested remedy.

James
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Old 04-26-08, 08:11 AM   #45
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James,

I think that is a great idea. You might consider some heavier tape like duct tape that will add more dampening. Of course you have to be concerned about tape residue from duct tape and whether you can get it off without damaging something. Starting with the blue masking tape is the better approach.

Again, most owners may not have a problem like I had. If you don't some times have the sensation that something is about to grab you by the neck then don't consider taking you trim off.

I think I have gotten my information to Lexus. I had an email from them yesterday asking me to provide my "proposal" in writing. I think that at least we know that they will soon be aware of what I found and they should be able to assess the applicability and start providing some help for those who might benefit from it.

Jeff
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