booyabruin

After sitting on the sidelines with this fix for a while, I decided to bite the bullet and implement jmcraney's fix yesterday. My wife took the LS out today and reports to me that the wind noise problem is "gone" and that the car is now "eerily quiet". I'll verify myself tomorrow, but it looks like jmcraney's fix worked for us as well. Thanks to jmcraney and others who have made this forum the best of breed for luxury car sites!

onepointon

I copied the fix jmcraney has posted and e-mailed it to my Diagnostic Specialist. We are going to take a look at the next LS460 wind noise concern and see if we can impliment some type of related fix to the next vehicle. If it is a sucess, we will submit a Dealer Product Report about it and see where it goes from there.

Good work guys.

jmcraney

Thank you "booyabruin" for your report of success. It is important to all LS460 owners to know that some are getting rid of their noise problem.

And thank you "onepointon" for your interest in this problem. You are in a unique position to provide some real help to the LS460 owners who have an unresolved wind noise problem and the following may be of special interest to you.

What I am about to say is probably going to cause some confusion, but it needs to be said. Before I start into this I want to say that the sealing recommendation that I provided (the one that some have implemented with success), is probably the ultimate fix for this problem. But, there may be another fix that is adequate.

I want to make it clear that this is only a theory - I don't have anything to touch or look at other than picture provided by "bob321" in response #179. When I pointed out that my trim piece was different from the one pictured in bob321's response he responded that "When the triangles get pulled off, the white tab to square hole connection is stronger than the white tab to molded square black pin, so the white tab part comes off and ends up down inside the door somewhere". I am a keen observer and I am reasonably sure that the white tabs were not on my trim pieces, either side, when I pulled them off - I think I would have heard then fall into the door. And, that may be where the root of the problem is.

When you look at the white tab is bob321's picture it looks like it is designed to keep the center of the trim under tension sort of like providing a spring like force to keep the tape compressed. A secondary effect might be to dampen any oscillations/viberations. My theory is that the tab or tabs popped off after the trim pieces were applied to the car. Since they are probably under tension this could occur at any time - when they were installed, on the boat, at the dealership, or after they have been in service for a while. This could be due to a manufacturing defect or a material defect. And could well account for the reports that we have had from people reporting that their wind noise problem is only on one side and I have seen a report from an owner saying his problem started after he had driven his car over 5000 miles. Being under tension, the clips could come off at any time so those who have a quiet car now could wind up with the wind noise problem at any time.

As I have indicated several times, I was not completely satisfied with the idea that the problem was due to the mounting tape failure. And garyr reported that he is aware that his car is quieter even when it is not moving, as I have noticed with my car. So part of the problem is not about air leaking in.

My theory is that with the clips missing from the trim pieces, they are able to act like a diaphragm. An analogy - maybe not a very good one, but the only one I can think of - would be to take a tin can of food and hold one end up to your ear and listen. You wouldn't hear very much. But if you empty the can and hold it up to your ear it acts like a crude amplifier. Without the dampening effect of the tension provided by the clip the trim pieces might provide a similar effect.

Well, what's the fix? It may be as simple as getting your dealer to replace the trim pieces with new parts that have the clips on them. I would think that would be a Lexus "approved" fix. It could be done quickly - no waiting time for the sealant to dry. One hang-up might be keeping the parts pipeline full. This sort of fix would at least make the cars equal to those that don't seem to have a problem. Bob321 tells us that these parts cost $18 each retail, so at that cost the dealer might be willing to replace the parts without much resistance, just to avoid an overnight loaner.

If my theory holds water, a person with reasonable sensory skills should be able to determine whether the clips are off by tapping on the trim pieces - those with missing clips should sound hollow while those with clips intact should sound more solid. For those of you who have a car that has the wind noise problem only on one side, you should be able to detect a distinct difference, side to side, when you tap on your trim pieces. I would think that a dealership could check their whole inventory very quickly by doing something like this and getting this cured before delivery could save a lot of that $5/gal gas.

It may be that some number of owners have this problem and don't realize it, either because of their driving habits or their expectation of what is acceptable. Being able to detect the condition with a no cost test like per-cussing, if that is possible, might be a way to provide an extra service and good public relations during scheduled maintenance.

PatsSoxfan

jmcraney, you are something else! I still feel strongly that ultimately, Lexus should send you a fat check.

Here is my update after driving back home from Belleville, MI this past Sunday. I am still bothered a little by swishing wind sound. I may not have applied enough sealant a couple weeks back on the drivers side triangle trim area. The car is quieter but I'm still not satisfied especially after reading some of the success stories here. I am going to try the fix again in the very near future. I hope that the permatex sealant I used is easily removed.

garyr

600 miles after the fix and I'm still grinning ear to ear......100% fixed. The car is now like it should have been since day one a year and a half ago.

Jeff will mostly likely go down as a unsung hero, helping many owners with no monetary recognition other than stated on this board. Lexus does owe him a great deal of thanks and they should do something for him. Lets hope, wait and see.

If he ever is passing through NJ he has a cold beer or bottle of wine and a steak waiting from me.

daryll40

Lexus outta give Jim a new car for his efforts. Read what others are spending to reduce wind noise:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080618/autos...oise.html?.v=2

djay

bob321: Do you have the Lexus part number for these new triangle pieces you ordered? Thanks

Luxofreak

This is the first time I've read this thread, as my car had the wind noise fixed very early by my Lexus dealer. I had not been concerned about the noise because for me it has been solved.

BUT.... looking at all the pics here and at jmcraney's explanations I wonder if the tech did something on that area. My car is a '07 swb that had massive wind noise. They changed the front window glass, etc... and they even paid to have them re-tinted. Car is pretty quiet right now but I am not sure if they worked on the triangle pieces or not, and if any more improvements can be achieved.

bob321

> Do you have the Lexus part number for these new triangle pieces you ordered?

From the sales receipt...
67495-50020 -which displays as "COVER, FR DOOR FR LW" at 1 lexus part site
67496-50020 -"COVER, FR DOOR FR LW" which is surprisingly the same desc.

The old pieces had a molded-in "67495 LS-RH" on the passenger door piece and "67496 LS-LH" on the driver door piece.

--------------------------
Finally got to take it for a drive today and as expected, no noticable improvement for me. Remember that my tech had sealed up all these holes and gaps as part of his TSB repair. The new ones do fit much nicer than the old ones.

dc935

Would u guys still recommend taking car for tsib fixes or bypassing that altogether and just going straight for the DIY fix? Never really listened for the wind noise (i will now) as the ML is always booming

djay

Thanks very much for providing this information. Very much appreciated.

jmcraney

PatsSoxfan said that he is not sure if he used enough sealant so I think a little more advice on that would be helpful.

For you DIYers , you are trying to do two things: (1) stop any air flow through this area and (2) dampen any oscillations/vibrations.

As far as how much sealant to use, the downside for not using enough is you don't completely stop the airflow and oscillations/viberations. The downside of using too much is that you make a mess. So, you want to err on the too-much side (major squish-out is not bad). You can clean up as you go or clean up after it cures. Whit tells us his implementation was to essentially fill all the void behind the trim piece with sealant - I don't think that is a bad idea, as it is the ultimate for damping vibration and oscillation.

Be sure to avoid getting the sealant on the painted surfaces.

Luxofreak

Question: Instead of removing the piece, can I just put some black silicone sealant around the piece without removing it? It would go all the way around all three sides and as long as the excess is removed, wouldn't this procedure solve the problem too? Just trying to make it easier...

jmcraney

As far as I know, just sealing around the edges will not produce the maximum attainable noise isolation. Several responders have used tape around the edges - I have suggested that too - and they reported that there was no noticeable improvement. The problem seems to be more than an air leak and the reduction in noise seems to come from dampening the trim piece by adding silicone sealant behind it.

jmcraney

I would suggest you get Lexus to install the new glass if they will do that at no cost and get all the other things they are willing to do free too. Of course there is a convenience factor too and all that takes some time and you will have to decide if you have the time and patience to go through all that.

It is possible that you don't have the problem that the fix that I suggested addresses. The best way that I know of to figure that out is to use the test that I detailed in my response #130 - it is a little corny and simplistic but if you apply those guidelines you should be able to tell if your car would benefit.

You could also wait to see if Lexus is going to come out with a Service Bulletin. I was at the dealership mid last week and the customer relations rep told me that Lexus has not yet come out with anything like what I suggested and until Lexus authorizes it they will not do that sort of repair.

I did look at four of their new cars and did the "thump test" on them and three out of four failed the test. And, I could tell just by looking at them that they will have the wind noise problem - the upper rear corner sort of sticks up. The perception of a couple of months ago was that a few cars had the noise problem and some owners were imagining that their cars had the problem. I think the reality will be that many cars have the wind noise problem and some owners are imagining that they don't have the problem.

For those of you who are letting the wind noise issue affect your purchase: I would advise you to not give any consideration to that. It is a known issue with a known fix. If you don't know what you are looking for you might not be able to figure out if the cars you test drive have that problem and even if you believe that they do not, they can develop the problem later. The problem is easy to fix and the cars are exceptionally quiet when the necessary fixes are in place.

The "Lexus authorized fix" of replacing the trim pieces with new pieces that I suggested is probably going to be limited by the lack of available parts.