LS460 Wind Noise Fix (continued discussion)
06-02-08, 09:48 PM
#166
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Thanks to the Moderators, contributors and jmcraney. Great info! Plan to test drive an L this weekend and will be listening for the wind noise.
Years of corporate culture prevent Lexus from responding quickly or at all. BMW, GM etal are no different.
Special thanks to jmcraney for solving the wind noise defect. Maybe Motor Trend, NASCAR or duPont will contact you! That could be fun.
rig
Years of corporate culture prevent Lexus from responding quickly or at all. BMW, GM etal are no different.
Special thanks to jmcraney for solving the wind noise defect. Maybe Motor Trend, NASCAR or duPont will contact you! That could be fun.
rig
06-03-08, 04:46 AM
#167
Without seeing what they did or didn't do, I can't really recommend anything.
If the noise level is really that much louder after 'their fix' I think I'd pursue that with them before you did anything on your own, otherwise they might just say that it was 'your fix' that made it worse.
This way they'll have it in their records that you were still unsatisfied, which puts it back on them and gives you a 'last resort' justification to fix what they couldn't.
Whit
Whit
If the noise level is really that much louder after 'their fix' I think I'd pursue that with them before you did anything on your own, otherwise they might just say that it was 'your fix' that made it worse.
This way they'll have it in their records that you were still unsatisfied, which puts it back on them and gives you a 'last resort' justification to fix what they couldn't.
Whit
Whit
06-04-08, 07:12 PM
#168
Can you belive it? PatsSoxfan did it. I did the jmcraney triangle fix yesterday afternoon. I started with the driver's side. I had to use quite a bit of force with the plastic putty knife (pretty flimsy tool) to dislodge the cover, but it finally came off. The dealer may have used the same slealant that I used yesterday since it was black and a rubbery texture when dry. However, who knows if they did the job right. I have a feeling that they did not apply enough sealant especially in that vertical gap. I also had a bit of a tough time squeezing out the permatex since I think I had too tiny of an opening. But I tried to apply enough everywhere that Jeff showed in the diagram. I replaced the cover and hoped for the best. I was not even going to try anything on the passenger side but I decided that what gthe heck, let's do it. This turned into a bit of nightmare. The cover was even more difficult to remove. Once I got it off I was rather startled that I could not see any metal. It was all black. The inside of the cover was also black with the rubbery material. Well, I scraped off a bit of the material and then decided to apply new sealant. I put the cover back on. After a few minutes, it appeared to me that it was too loose. So, now I am starting to panick that perhaps the new sealant will not stick unless I removed the previous sealant. I was scraping the metal and the inside of the cover for more than an hour and I got it to a point where it was pretty clean metal, but it was much more difficult to remove it from the inside of the cover. I did the best I could. I applied the new sealant again and replaced the cover and hoped for the best. I left the car in the garage for more than 24 hours.
Early this evening, I had to do an errand in the city and drove as fast as about 52 mph on a main city road. My initial impression is that it is a success. Before, I could hear some swishing wind noise even at 35 mph. At 52 mph, it was hardly noticable. Perhaps more importantly the car is definitely quieter than prior to my fix and quieter than the dealer's fix. I need to drive out on the highway tomorrow though, and hear what it sounds like at 70 and 80 mph. So far, so good. I will report back later tomorrow.
Early this evening, I had to do an errand in the city and drove as fast as about 52 mph on a main city road. My initial impression is that it is a success. Before, I could hear some swishing wind noise even at 35 mph. At 52 mph, it was hardly noticable. Perhaps more importantly the car is definitely quieter than prior to my fix and quieter than the dealer's fix. I need to drive out on the highway tomorrow though, and hear what it sounds like at 70 and 80 mph. So far, so good. I will report back later tomorrow.
06-05-08, 06:06 AM
#169
PatsSoxfan,
I am sorry you had such an ordeal with your triangle trim fix. I hope that after you recover from your angst, you will feel that the results were worth the effort. DIYers who are trying this will not have the difficulties that you encountered if they are doing it on a car that has not had any prior repairs in this area.
The details you provided are very valuable in understanding why Lexus's repairs in this area have so far been marginally effective or ineffective.
In your case and the response #112 from bob321 it sounds like the dealers are using some sort of spray-on or paint-on adhesive. Adhesive cure-time is typically driven by the thickness of the material because curing for one-part materials is usually an out-gassing process so if you want something to cure quickly you have to apply a thin coat and I am sure that was a consideration so that they would not have to keep the car overnight. The odds of getting a good seal with contact type adhesive are not good.
The reason that I chose the silicone sealant was what I call the fixodent-effect (I don't know the physics word for this). The bead height is very important - if it is not high enough then no seal - and that is why I have given some dimensions where it makes a difference. But, the silicone sealant has the disadvantage of a longer cure time than thin coat materials. One of the big advantages with using materials that have the" fixodent-effect" is that they provide good seals on complex contours - watch the TV commercial. You do have to be a little concerned about trapped air compromising the seal (blowout) the way we are doing it but that risk is quite small because there is little flexure of the trim piece (to compress air during placement) and you can always do it again if you think it is not sealed adequately.
I am sorry you had such an ordeal with your triangle trim fix. I hope that after you recover from your angst, you will feel that the results were worth the effort. DIYers who are trying this will not have the difficulties that you encountered if they are doing it on a car that has not had any prior repairs in this area.
The details you provided are very valuable in understanding why Lexus's repairs in this area have so far been marginally effective or ineffective.
In your case and the response #112 from bob321 it sounds like the dealers are using some sort of spray-on or paint-on adhesive. Adhesive cure-time is typically driven by the thickness of the material because curing for one-part materials is usually an out-gassing process so if you want something to cure quickly you have to apply a thin coat and I am sure that was a consideration so that they would not have to keep the car overnight. The odds of getting a good seal with contact type adhesive are not good.
The reason that I chose the silicone sealant was what I call the fixodent-effect (I don't know the physics word for this). The bead height is very important - if it is not high enough then no seal - and that is why I have given some dimensions where it makes a difference. But, the silicone sealant has the disadvantage of a longer cure time than thin coat materials. One of the big advantages with using materials that have the" fixodent-effect" is that they provide good seals on complex contours - watch the TV commercial. You do have to be a little concerned about trapped air compromising the seal (blowout) the way we are doing it but that risk is quite small because there is little flexure of the trim piece (to compress air during placement) and you can always do it again if you think it is not sealed adequately.
Last edited by jmcraney; 06-05-08 at 08:29 AM.
06-05-08, 09:04 AM
#170
jmcraney,
Now that you mention it, the dealer let it dry for only an hour at most. However, isn't the Permatex sealant a rubbery sort of texture also once it's dry? That's what confuses me. What you state about the different types of sealants makes a lot of sense. I hope I applied enough at the right spots.
I will take the car out on the highway later this afternoon to see what it sounds like at 70-80mph.
Now that you mention it, the dealer let it dry for only an hour at most. However, isn't the Permatex sealant a rubbery sort of texture also once it's dry? That's what confuses me. What you state about the different types of sealants makes a lot of sense. I hope I applied enough at the right spots.
I will take the car out on the highway later this afternoon to see what it sounds like at 70-80mph.
06-06-08, 02:41 PM
#171
OK, the testing is completed. I picked an incrfedibly windy day to drive at 70-80 mph. The wind has beeb blowing at 25-35 mph this afternoon and gusting to well over 40 from the southwest. I actually had a bit of a tough time keeping the car straight due to the very strong cross winds. Well, I have to say that even with this kind of wind, the driving seemed quieter. Yes I could hear the swind swishing but it was not too bad considering how strong the wind was blowing. Tomorrow we are taking a long trip to Belleville, MI traveling on I-80 and I-94. It will be interesting to see how it behaves with more moderate wind. I will report back here from Belleville sometime this weekend.
06-06-08, 03:14 PM
#172
PatsSoxfan,
Did you see anything from Texas passing you in the wind? I had my car out yesterday - winds gusting over 50 - and it did have a slight bit of wind swishing, especially when the gust were from 120 degrees and 240 degrees. Oh darn!
All jokes aside, that may be too harsh a test.
We will await a report from testing under more reasonable conditions.
Have fun on your trip.
Did you see anything from Texas passing you in the wind? I had my car out yesterday - winds gusting over 50 - and it did have a slight bit of wind swishing, especially when the gust were from 120 degrees and 240 degrees. Oh darn!
All jokes aside, that may be too harsh a test.
We will await a report from testing under more reasonable conditions.
Have fun on your trip.
06-08-08, 09:00 AM
#173
I'm happy to report my wind noise is completely fixed thanks to Jmcraney!!!! 
It took only a year and a half later and a non-authorized Lexus diagnosed and engineered repair to fix it.
I met with the field rep, I forwarded him Jeff's procedures. He was reluctant to do the repairs but I had logged a complaint I wanted Lexus to replace my car so they told me no on the replacement of the car but said they would try Jeff's fix. They wrote a funky repair order like, "experimental Internet repair".
When I picked my car up 2 days later I verified they actually did do the fix. I even saw the clear silicone they used coming out of the corners of the triangle. I was told the field rep like the repair and was going to do it to another car the next day.
My Findings;
So far I drove the car 30 miles. Repair fix was noticed instantly.
Absolutely no more turbulence entering the cabin. All turbulence is now normal and outside the car, 100% fixed.
Ambient noise, while the car is stopped and hearing noise out side has reduced by 75%! but I have to say the more I drive it the quieter it is becoming, have no idea why.
Lexus is starting to listen however they have much different views of the problem after speaking with the shop foreman, and I will leave it at that.
It took some pushing to get Lexus to do the right thing, they have given me compensation for my frustration in terms of some free services and I think that goes farther than anything any other manufacturer would have done. I'm very happy with the car now and Lexus Corp.
Jeff, you deserve and standing ovation.....I'm standing and clapping
It took only a year and a half later and a non-authorized Lexus diagnosed and engineered repair to fix it.
I met with the field rep, I forwarded him Jeff's procedures. He was reluctant to do the repairs but I had logged a complaint I wanted Lexus to replace my car so they told me no on the replacement of the car but said they would try Jeff's fix. They wrote a funky repair order like, "experimental Internet repair".
When I picked my car up 2 days later I verified they actually did do the fix. I even saw the clear silicone they used coming out of the corners of the triangle. I was told the field rep like the repair and was going to do it to another car the next day.
My Findings;
So far I drove the car 30 miles. Repair fix was noticed instantly.
Absolutely no more turbulence entering the cabin. All turbulence is now normal and outside the car, 100% fixed.
Ambient noise, while the car is stopped and hearing noise out side has reduced by 75%! but I have to say the more I drive it the quieter it is becoming, have no idea why.
Lexus is starting to listen however they have much different views of the problem after speaking with the shop foreman, and I will leave it at that.
It took some pushing to get Lexus to do the right thing, they have given me compensation for my frustration in terms of some free services and I think that goes farther than anything any other manufacturer would have done. I'm very happy with the car now and Lexus Corp.
Jeff, you deserve and standing ovation.....I'm standing and clapping
Last edited by garyr; 06-08-08 at 01:05 PM.
06-08-08, 12:31 PM
#174
I just made another observation relating to the wind noise problem. 99.99% of the car mirrors I see passing by on the highway are all located in the triangle spot that is now absent of a mirror on the LS460. Even the new Lex SUV's are that way. The old LS430 had them that way as well.
That does explain a lot, that plastic triangle now houses many joints all coming together where the mirror once was. I'm sure the turbulence from the mirror now located on the door just under the plastic triangle can't help things.
That does explain a lot, that plastic triangle now houses many joints all coming together where the mirror once was. I'm sure the turbulence from the mirror now located on the door just under the plastic triangle can't help things.
Last edited by garyr; 06-08-08 at 01:07 PM.
06-08-08, 02:24 PM
#175
Finally got my new door triangles. $18 each at the dealer, a week or so for delivery.
First thing to notice is that the 2 larger square "alignment" posts actually have quite aggressive locking tabs on them. I'm guessing that the tabs get pulled off when you remove the triangles the first time. When I installed the new ones, they pulled the triangle down tighter and more securely than my practice run on the old triangles using only silicone to secure it.
I also compared the thickness of the recommended silicone patterns (after install and letting them dry for 3 weeks) with the thikcness of the brown triangular brown sealing surface on the new parts. Thickness of the homemade and new parts was almost the same - giving me the impression that the new part's sealing depth around the 3 posts area is adequate if properly installed and capable of lasting for years.
So what did I do? I siliconed the 2 large gaps at the top and bottom, put a thin bead around the posts and around the inside of the OEM sealant. As I said before, I don't expect my car to be quieter because the Lexus tech had done an adequate job isolating the noise sources.
First thing to notice is that the 2 larger square "alignment" posts actually have quite aggressive locking tabs on them. I'm guessing that the tabs get pulled off when you remove the triangles the first time. When I installed the new ones, they pulled the triangle down tighter and more securely than my practice run on the old triangles using only silicone to secure it.
I also compared the thickness of the recommended silicone patterns (after install and letting them dry for 3 weeks) with the thikcness of the brown triangular brown sealing surface on the new parts. Thickness of the homemade and new parts was almost the same - giving me the impression that the new part's sealing depth around the 3 posts area is adequate if properly installed and capable of lasting for years.
So what did I do? I siliconed the 2 large gaps at the top and bottom, put a thin bead around the posts and around the inside of the OEM sealant. As I said before, I don't expect my car to be quieter because the Lexus tech had done an adequate job isolating the noise sources.
06-08-08, 02:44 PM
#176
I had gale force south winds all the way on our trip to Belleville, MI yesterday. We had constant 20-40 mph winds with gusts to well over 40 the entire trip. I don't have anything new to add on this test. I do belive the car is quieter in spite of the wicked winds. I will see how it goes on our trip back home next Sunday.
06-08-08, 04:25 PM
#177
06-08-08, 04:43 PM
#178
Finally got my new door triangles. $18 each at the dealer, a week or so for delivery.
First thing to notice is that the 2 larger square "alignment" posts actually have quite aggressive locking tabs on them. I'm guessing that the tabs get pulled off when you remove the triangles the first time. When I installed the new ones, they pulled the triangle down tighter and more securely than my practice run on the old triangles using only silicone to secure it.
I also compared the thickness of the recommended silicone patterns (after install and letting them dry for 3 weeks) with the thikcness of the brown triangular brown sealing surface on the new parts. Thickness of the homemade and new parts was almost the same - giving me the impression that the new part's sealing depth around the 3 posts area is adequate if properly installed and capable of lasting for years.
So what did I do? I siliconed the 2 large gaps at the top and bottom, put a thin bead around the posts and around the inside of the OEM sealant. As I said before, I don't expect my car to be quieter because the Lexus tech had done an adequate job isolating the noise sources.
First thing to notice is that the 2 larger square "alignment" posts actually have quite aggressive locking tabs on them. I'm guessing that the tabs get pulled off when you remove the triangles the first time. When I installed the new ones, they pulled the triangle down tighter and more securely than my practice run on the old triangles using only silicone to secure it.
I also compared the thickness of the recommended silicone patterns (after install and letting them dry for 3 weeks) with the thikcness of the brown triangular brown sealing surface on the new parts. Thickness of the homemade and new parts was almost the same - giving me the impression that the new part's sealing depth around the 3 posts area is adequate if properly installed and capable of lasting for years.
So what did I do? I siliconed the 2 large gaps at the top and bottom, put a thin bead around the posts and around the inside of the OEM sealant. As I said before, I don't expect my car to be quieter because the Lexus tech had done an adequate job isolating the noise sources.
bob321,
Thanks for the great pictures and details. Maybe you can get a job as a photographer if you run out of cars to repair.
My trim pieces don't look anything like yours. Mine didn't have any kind of retainer device other than maybe something on the small round pin. On mine, the round, square and rectangular pins were a molded part of the trim piece, sort of like your round pin. On your new trim pieces the parts that go into the square and rectangular holes are white and look like they are not a molded part of the trim piece.
I am not sure by what you wrote if you have done a test drive on your car but I sense you have not.
Sounds like you covered all the bases. But I am not sure you sealed the ".040 vertical gap" - I am not sure that it is important but just in case it is would you let us know if you did that.
Sounds like one of the main differences is sealing at the corners and should you have a major improvement that may indicate that the real problem lies in that area.
Last edited by jmcraney; 06-08-08 at 04:49 PM.
06-08-08, 05:43 PM
#179
No future in photography for me - the other 12 closeups at different angles were all out of focus. Badly. 
Unfortunately they showed more of the tab configuration.
Our triangles are the same - at least they were before yours were removed the first time. The white tab pieces slip onto the ends of the 2 molded-in square black pins. When the triangles get pulled off, the white tab to square hole connection is stronger than the white tab to molded square black pin, so the white tab part comes off and ends up down inside the door somewhere. My old black triangles are just like yours - Missing the white end tabs.
The 0.40 gap was well sealed by the Lexus tech so I didn't mess with that. No test drive yet.
Really poor photo - holding up both white tabs really are the molded-in square black pins.
Unfortunately they showed more of the tab configuration.Our triangles are the same - at least they were before yours were removed the first time. The white tab pieces slip onto the ends of the 2 molded-in square black pins. When the triangles get pulled off, the white tab to square hole connection is stronger than the white tab to molded square black pin, so the white tab part comes off and ends up down inside the door somewhere. My old black triangles are just like yours - Missing the white end tabs.
The 0.40 gap was well sealed by the Lexus tech so I didn't mess with that. No test drive yet.
Really poor photo - holding up both white tabs really are the molded-in square black pins.
06-08-08, 05:48 PM
#180
bob321,
Thanks for the added detail.
Please let us know about your test drive.
Thanks for the added detail.
Please let us know about your test drive.