View Poll Results: How do you feel about the Lexus NAVI lockout?
I'm glad it's there, it keeps me from crashing
5
1.87%
Could care less one way or another
11
4.10%
Annoying, but tolerable
49
18.28%
Really Annoying - worst "feature" of the car
161
60.07%
Untolerable - Major factor keeping me from purchasing a Lexus
42
15.67%
Voters: 268. You may not vote on this poll
Lexus NAVI Lockout
07-19-08, 05:21 PM
#106
Lexus Test Driver
I've flown helicopters and light aircraft, and have coped quite well with the high cockpit workload which exceeds anything in a car. But I'm still very cautious about operating a nav system on the road.
That's because I believe we vastly overestimate our ability to drive well. In our country - which is one of the last to ban phoning or texting while driving - there have been a continuing spate of accidents directly related to the use of a phone in motion. A nav system is far more complex than a phone, and yet we think that we can use this system - which needs a higher operational skillset - while barreling down the road at 100km/hr?
Mike, you might be lucky that your skills and better judgement have kept you safe till now. But that's you, a skilled driver. I worry more about the less skilled who are all around us, and who lack our sensibility. So when I project my opinion on to others, it's precisely because it's the OTHER person we need to watch for.
The other point you make about using the nav system sensibly is correct... but you possibly neglect different road conditions and driving skill levels in different countries. I've just returned from my annual trip to Britain where I regularly drive about 1000-1500 miles each time. Try setting a sat-nav in 90% of the country's road which are not motorways, and you have serious problems. Every corner (and there are many of them, darn it!) will kill you in a second of inattention. Add to that the fact that there are few places to stop, and it's a disaster in the making.
In the US there are many miles of mind-numbing highway where you can read War & Peace without needing to turn the wheel. Conditions are different everywhere.
Familiarity is another point you brought up. I bought the first Navman system 6 years ago, and have used various models of it, including buying a separate one for my driving when I visit Australia.
I've also used TomTom and tried Garmin. Many of those units I can operate with my eyes closed, but I'm not yet used to the Lexus system. It is not as intuitive as other units, but interestingly sits well below eye level which I think is a big negative design factor. With the other windshield-mounted units, you were looking in the same direction as the road.
The Lexus and other built-in touchscreens requires concentration away from the road view, and I believe is not efficient at all.
That's because I believe we vastly overestimate our ability to drive well. In our country - which is one of the last to ban phoning or texting while driving - there have been a continuing spate of accidents directly related to the use of a phone in motion. A nav system is far more complex than a phone, and yet we think that we can use this system - which needs a higher operational skillset - while barreling down the road at 100km/hr?
Mike, you might be lucky that your skills and better judgement have kept you safe till now. But that's you, a skilled driver. I worry more about the less skilled who are all around us, and who lack our sensibility. So when I project my opinion on to others, it's precisely because it's the OTHER person we need to watch for.
The other point you make about using the nav system sensibly is correct... but you possibly neglect different road conditions and driving skill levels in different countries. I've just returned from my annual trip to Britain where I regularly drive about 1000-1500 miles each time. Try setting a sat-nav in 90% of the country's road which are not motorways, and you have serious problems. Every corner (and there are many of them, darn it!) will kill you in a second of inattention. Add to that the fact that there are few places to stop, and it's a disaster in the making.
In the US there are many miles of mind-numbing highway where you can read War & Peace without needing to turn the wheel. Conditions are different everywhere.
Familiarity is another point you brought up. I bought the first Navman system 6 years ago, and have used various models of it, including buying a separate one for my driving when I visit Australia.
I've also used TomTom and tried Garmin. Many of those units I can operate with my eyes closed, but I'm not yet used to the Lexus system. It is not as intuitive as other units, but interestingly sits well below eye level which I think is a big negative design factor. With the other windshield-mounted units, you were looking in the same direction as the road.
The Lexus and other built-in touchscreens requires concentration away from the road view, and I believe is not efficient at all.
And while I respect your abilities in small aircraft (which I've also flown) and helicopters (which I haven't), I still think you're underestimating the abilities of the average Joe ... at least on U.S. highways.
And even if you aren't, you're still applying the rule that we refer to here as "Liberalism", which dictates that everything should be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.
What I'm saying is, damn it, don't lock me out of a system I paid good money for, just because there are some dunderheads out there who aren't capable of operating it. What the heck kind of logic is THAT?
I've re-read your posts and you are clearly saying none of us should be using our nav systems while moving because you believe there are some out there who would be unsafe doing so. Do you REALLY mean that? Are you REALLY saying you're willing to deny its use to most of us just because you feel there are a few who may not be up to the task? Wow. Americans fought and died for the right (among others) not to be prejudged and slotted into arbitrary categories like that. That's why some of us are madder than hell that Lexus is doing us this way.
I repeat - not every automaker takes the arbitrary and narrow-minded position Lexus does. A number of them allow full use of the nav system at all times, and the streets are not running knee-deep in blood because of it. Lexus is being overly-cautious and, IMO, childish and chickencrap about it. Other automakers treat their clientelle as adults, but Lexus has chosen to do otherwise, and I personally feel we are completely justified in feeling bitter about it
I'm just happy someone has gone to the trouble to develop an override kit that gives me back (at the cost of $350 of my own money, I might add) the ability to use the device I already paid a couple of thousand dollars for.
.
.
07-19-08, 08:57 PM
#107
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But the wild card in this discussion is exactly WHAT causes unsafe driving.
It may not be nav systems that caused 43,000 deaths in your country in 2006. Could be leaning over to tune the radio, fighting off a bee or wrestling the top off a can (you guys sure do love drinking stuff on the run - something I find rare in other countries).
I don't really care to apportion blame to anyone, let alone take away their God-given right to the road - unless they're coming towards me with their head buried in the cockpit trying to find the nearest gas station POI. Then I get worried.
--------------------------
2007 LS600hL, 5 seat
2000 LX470 (traded)
Mercedes SL500 AMG (sun)
Mercedes SLK 230 (wife)
Suzuki Grand Vitara (rain & runaround)
07-20-08, 07:58 AM
#108
Lexus Test Driver
Yup.
But the wild card in this discussion is exactly WHAT causes unsafe driving.
It may not be nav systems that caused 43,000 deaths in your country in 2006. Could be leaning over to tune the radio, fighting off a bee or wrestling the top off a can (you guys sure do love drinking stuff on the run - something I find rare in other countries).
I don't really care to apportion blame to anyone, let alone take away their God-given right to the road - unless they're coming towards me with their head buried in the cockpit trying to find the nearest gas station POI. Then I get worried.
But the wild card in this discussion is exactly WHAT causes unsafe driving.
It may not be nav systems that caused 43,000 deaths in your country in 2006. Could be leaning over to tune the radio, fighting off a bee or wrestling the top off a can (you guys sure do love drinking stuff on the run - something I find rare in other countries).
I don't really care to apportion blame to anyone, let alone take away their God-given right to the road - unless they're coming towards me with their head buried in the cockpit trying to find the nearest gas station POI. Then I get worried.
- checking their rearview mirrors for traffic behind them,
- watching cross streets for traffic,
- watching oncoming traffic,
- monitoring road signs,
- constantly making adjustments to the accelerator to maintain their desired speed,
- constantly making adjustments to steer the car,
- monitoring gauges (fuel, engine temperature, etc.),
- monitoring road conditions (potholes, curves, wet/dry/snowy/icy, etc.),
- adjusting climate controls,
- etc., etc.
... and at the same time, probably listening to the radio or CD player or satellite radio, perhaps carrying on a conversation with a passenger, mulling over the events of the day, perhaps planning ahead for the rest of the day, and on and on.
I don't know .... maybe you'd better reconsider and not drive at all. I mean, in the midst of all that distraction, someone might glance over for a second or two and touch their nav screen to check for that gas station. Man, that could be dangerous!
.
.
07-20-08, 02:35 PM
#109
[QUOTE=LS600guy;3692403]Yup.
But the wild card in this discussion is exactly WHAT causes unsafe driving.
It may not be nav systems that caused 43,000 deaths in your country in 2006. Could be leaning over to tune the radio, fighting off a bee or wrestling the top off a can (you guys sure do love drinking stuff on the run - something I find rare in other countries).
===========
I think you've made your agenda perfectly clear. You'd better stay down there in utopia where no one dies on the roads for any cause.
Whit
But the wild card in this discussion is exactly WHAT causes unsafe driving.
It may not be nav systems that caused 43,000 deaths in your country in 2006. Could be leaning over to tune the radio, fighting off a bee or wrestling the top off a can (you guys sure do love drinking stuff on the run - something I find rare in other countries).
===========
I think you've made your agenda perfectly clear. You'd better stay down there in utopia where no one dies on the roads for any cause.
Whit
07-20-08, 03:53 PM
#110
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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Well, okay ... at least I know where you stand, as disturbing as it is that you would reduce everything to that lowest common denominator. But, given that, I'm not sure how you can handle driving on public roads at all, since there are dozens of tasks involved in driving. I mean, for example, people are:
- checking their rearview mirrors for traffic behind them,
- watching cross streets for traffic,
- watching oncoming traffic,
- monitoring road signs,
- constantly making adjustments to the accelerator to maintain their desired speed,
- constantly making adjustments to steer the car,
- monitoring gauges (fuel, engine temperature, etc.),
- monitoring road conditions (potholes, curves, wet/dry/snowy/icy, etc.),
- adjusting climate controls,
- etc., etc.
... and at the same time, probably listening to the radio or CD player or satellite radio, perhaps carrying on a conversation with a passenger, mulling over the events of the day, perhaps planning ahead for the rest of the day, and on and on.
I don't know .... maybe you'd better reconsider and not drive at all. I mean, in the midst of all that distraction, someone might glance over for a second or two and touch their nav screen to check for that gas station. Man, that could be dangerous!
.
.
- checking their rearview mirrors for traffic behind them,
- watching cross streets for traffic,
- watching oncoming traffic,
- monitoring road signs,
- constantly making adjustments to the accelerator to maintain their desired speed,
- constantly making adjustments to steer the car,
- monitoring gauges (fuel, engine temperature, etc.),
- monitoring road conditions (potholes, curves, wet/dry/snowy/icy, etc.),
- adjusting climate controls,
- etc., etc.
... and at the same time, probably listening to the radio or CD player or satellite radio, perhaps carrying on a conversation with a passenger, mulling over the events of the day, perhaps planning ahead for the rest of the day, and on and on.
I don't know .... maybe you'd better reconsider and not drive at all. I mean, in the midst of all that distraction, someone might glance over for a second or two and touch their nav screen to check for that gas station. Man, that could be dangerous!
.
.
You well know I'm not discussing these aspects of driving at all, but the ones that have been touted as dangerous.
As for levels of driving, maybe you should take a look at the various advanced driving courses and tell me if you see where nav screen use is included or approved in the curriculum. I doubt it is.
But this whole discussion (moderately benign at the moment but growing in intensity), is suspiciously similar to the same argument about the rights that allow your fellow countrymen to carry and use a gun in public, and I'm not sure that has improved my sense of well-being when I visit your country either.
(Let battle commence!)
--------------------------
2007 LS600hL, 5 seat
2000 LX470 (traded)
Mercedes SL500 AMG (sun)
Mercedes SLK 230 (wife)
Suzuki Grand Vitara (rain & runaround)
07-20-08, 04:09 PM
#111
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[QUOTE=WhitBaby;3693541]
My country, New Zealand, has one of the worst driving standards I've experienced compared to many of the other first world countries I have visited, so a lot of my misgiving is tainted by my 45 years of driving here.
But driving standards are declining worldwide anyhow. Else why does car safety keep improving yet the number of accidents per population stay the same or increase?
China is a good example when it comes to the direct consequence of low driving standards:
"According to statistics from the Chinese Ministry of Public Security, road accidents caused over a hundred thousand deaths in each of the past two years. Seventy percent of these fatalities were attributed to driver error."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...inacars_2.html
And thanks for your suggestion on where I should reside, but I had hoped our discussion on this subject would be a trifle less personal and more global. Though the part I agree with is your reference to uptopia - that's definitely a fact despite our dodgy drivers.
--------------------------
2007 LS600hL, 5 seat
2000 LX470 (traded)
Mercedes SL500 AMG (sun)
Mercedes SLK 230 (wife)
Suzuki Grand Vitara (rain & runaround)
But driving standards are declining worldwide anyhow. Else why does car safety keep improving yet the number of accidents per population stay the same or increase?
China is a good example when it comes to the direct consequence of low driving standards:
"According to statistics from the Chinese Ministry of Public Security, road accidents caused over a hundred thousand deaths in each of the past two years. Seventy percent of these fatalities were attributed to driver error."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...inacars_2.html
And thanks for your suggestion on where I should reside, but I had hoped our discussion on this subject would be a trifle less personal and more global. Though the part I agree with is your reference to uptopia - that's definitely a fact despite our dodgy drivers.
--------------------------
2007 LS600hL, 5 seat
2000 LX470 (traded)
Mercedes SL500 AMG (sun)
Mercedes SLK 230 (wife)
Suzuki Grand Vitara (rain & runaround)
07-21-08, 07:05 AM
#112
I too object to the NAV Lockout. I too love my NAV override -- not because I can use it while driving, but my passenger can use it to help us both keep safe (we don't have to pull over to the side of the freeway to add a stop to our itinery or search for a POI).
I like the override because it saves me fuel costs and leaves a smaller carbon foot print than having to stop all the time,
I like the override because it allows my passenger to search the phone book without having to stop the vehicle.
I also like the NAV override because it brings me on a par with most other NAV systems in other cars in the world the don't have lockouts -- whether they're factory installed, after market or portable.
I don't like that Lexus requires me to override a system that should not have to be overridden! Why is Lexus the only company (I think) to do this?
I take pride in owning a Lexus. I am embarrassed to have to explain this lockout to other potential Lexus owners. And I don't like this "snickers behind my back" from Audi, BMW and Mercedes owner about this fact.
I believe Lexus' decision to lockout some features of the NAV system while the car is in motion IS a detrement to the car and to Lexus as a whole.
I like the override because it saves me fuel costs and leaves a smaller carbon foot print than having to stop all the time,
I like the override because it allows my passenger to search the phone book without having to stop the vehicle.
I also like the NAV override because it brings me on a par with most other NAV systems in other cars in the world the don't have lockouts -- whether they're factory installed, after market or portable.
I don't like that Lexus requires me to override a system that should not have to be overridden! Why is Lexus the only company (I think) to do this?
I take pride in owning a Lexus. I am embarrassed to have to explain this lockout to other potential Lexus owners. And I don't like this "snickers behind my back" from Audi, BMW and Mercedes owner about this fact.
I believe Lexus' decision to lockout some features of the NAV system while the car is in motion IS a detrement to the car and to Lexus as a whole.
07-21-08, 11:40 AM
#113
Lexus Test Driver
[QUOTE=LS600guy;3693683]
I'm not going to perpetuate this debate, since your mind is made up anyway, but you can't make false statements and not get called on them.
Here is a link to a story just last year:
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news...7/24/81996.htm
In which it is noted :
"Declining Traffic Deaths Lead to Lowest Highway Fatality Rate Ever Recorded - July 24, 2007
The number of people who died on the nation's roads fell last year, leading to the lowest highway fatality rate ever recorded and the largest drop in total deaths in 15 years, U.S. Transportation Secretary Mary E. Peters announced today.
"Tough safety requirements and new technologies are helping make our vehicles safer and our roads less deadly," Secretary Peters said. "But we all must do more when so many are killed or seriously hurt on our roads every day."
In 2006, 42,642 people died in traffic crashes, a drop of 868 deaths compared to 2005. This 2 percent decline in traffic deaths contributed to the historic low fatality rate of 1.42 per 100 million vehicle miles traveled (VMT), Secretary Peters said.
Most significantly, fatalities of occupants of passenger vehicles—cars, SUVs, vans and pickups—continued a steady decline to 30,521, the lowest annual total since 1993, Secretary Peters said. Injuries were also down in 2006, with passenger car injuries declining by 6.2 percent and large truck injuries falling by 15 percent, she said. "
China isn't a good example of anything automotive. When you take a peasant society and put them in cars for the first time, in a largely unregulated environment, it's inevitable they will kill each other until they evolve a system and gather the necessary experience to deal with it.
.
.
Here is a link to a story just last year:
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news...7/24/81996.htm
In which it is noted :
"Declining Traffic Deaths Lead to Lowest Highway Fatality Rate Ever Recorded - July 24, 2007
The number of people who died on the nation's roads fell last year, leading to the lowest highway fatality rate ever recorded and the largest drop in total deaths in 15 years, U.S. Transportation Secretary Mary E. Peters announced today.
"Tough safety requirements and new technologies are helping make our vehicles safer and our roads less deadly," Secretary Peters said. "But we all must do more when so many are killed or seriously hurt on our roads every day."
In 2006, 42,642 people died in traffic crashes, a drop of 868 deaths compared to 2005. This 2 percent decline in traffic deaths contributed to the historic low fatality rate of 1.42 per 100 million vehicle miles traveled (VMT), Secretary Peters said.
Most significantly, fatalities of occupants of passenger vehicles—cars, SUVs, vans and pickups—continued a steady decline to 30,521, the lowest annual total since 1993, Secretary Peters said. Injuries were also down in 2006, with passenger car injuries declining by 6.2 percent and large truck injuries falling by 15 percent, she said. "
China is a good example when it comes to the direct consequence of low driving standards:
"According to statistics from the Chinese Ministry of Public Security, road accidents caused over a hundred thousand deaths in each of the past two years. Seventy percent of these fatalities were attributed to driver error."
"According to statistics from the Chinese Ministry of Public Security, road accidents caused over a hundred thousand deaths in each of the past two years. Seventy percent of these fatalities were attributed to driver error."
.
.
07-21-08, 12:17 PM
#114
But this whole discussion (moderately benign at the moment but growing in intensity), is suspiciously similar to the same argument about the rights that allow your fellow countrymen to carry and use a gun in public, and I'm not sure that has improved my sense of well-being when I visit your country either.
(Let battle commence!)
Battle not necessary, I just think some people and their governments are naive.
I, personally, am not comfortable with any government that denies it's law abiding citizens the right to defend themselves.
All my guns are 'nice' guns. If I ever find out one of them left the house and took a shot at someone, I will deal with it harshly.
Whit
07-21-08, 08:32 PM
#115
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Yes, all good points, and you can be assured they were taken in the nature they were given.
More interestingly, I tried my nav system on the move for the first time a couple hours back, and was VERY surprised to find it worked! Almost ran off the road in my excitement
.
Looks like David beats Goliath
--------------------------
2007 LS600hL, 5 seat
2000 LX470 (traded)
Mercedes SL500 AMG (sun)
Mercedes SLK 230 (wife)
Suzuki Grand Vitara (rain & runaround)
More interestingly, I tried my nav system on the move for the first time a couple hours back, and was VERY surprised to find it worked! Almost ran off the road in my excitement
.Looks like David beats Goliath
--------------------------
2007 LS600hL, 5 seat
2000 LX470 (traded)
Mercedes SL500 AMG (sun)
Mercedes SLK 230 (wife)
Suzuki Grand Vitara (rain & runaround)
08-05-08, 02:06 PM
#116
I copied the poll to my blog about our wonderful crippled NAV system.
I hope the creator of the poll doesn't mind, since I copied it in the spirit of hearing what other Lexus owners feel about Lexus and their looking out for our safety
http://lexus-toyota-nav-trouble.blogspot.com/
I hope the creator of the poll doesn't mind, since I copied it in the spirit of hearing what other Lexus owners feel about Lexus and their looking out for our safety
http://lexus-toyota-nav-trouble.blogspot.com/
Last edited by tomv; 08-05-08 at 02:23 PM.
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