LS460L or BMW 750IL?? HELP ME - I cant decide!
10-13-12, 03:24 PM
#106
Lexus Fanatic
I never dismissed your opinion. All I said was that I didn't care about the color of the backlighting enough to have it seriously influence my decision of which car to buy, and I stated that the reason behind the red backlighting was because it didn't effect the driver's night vision like other colors, which is true.
You then in turn told me I was an idiot and that I may as well go buy a Pontiac.
Opinions aren't right or wrong. But, the point of a discussion is to DISCUSS each other's opinions, which is what I tried to do with you by saying why Audi and BMW choose to have red backlighting...which obviously you weren't interested in doing.
Then perhaps you shouldn't choose to participate in a thread where the participants are comparing a Lexus and a BMW. Pretty likely you'll have to read about a BMW in such a thread.
You can choose what you do and do not read on the forum instead of trying to make everybody else discuss only what you want to discuss.
You then in turn told me I was an idiot and that I may as well go buy a Pontiac.
Opinions aren't right or wrong. But, the point of a discussion is to DISCUSS each other's opinions, which is what I tried to do with you by saying why Audi and BMW choose to have red backlighting...which obviously you weren't interested in doing.
if I wanted to read about Audi BMW and Mercedes I would have bought one and joined their forum
You can choose what you do and do not read on the forum instead of trying to make everybody else discuss only what you want to discuss.
10-13-12, 05:58 PM
#107
It's funny that that every time someone has a opinion you guys can comment and say whatever you want and make slick comments about it, but when u speak up for yourself after someone say something negative about your comments it's a problem. I said I didn't like the red lights that's imop and theirs nothing wrong with that. I'm a grown man I carry myself that way and I'm gonna speak up when I feel I must defend myself and my position. So if you want to moderate someone moderate the other guy. By the way I didn't start a negative post I responded to one. You guys need to practice what yo preach. Feel free to do what you want but if you gonna do your job and moderate do it the right way and don't be one sided. 
Second, let me quote how you started this:
"I like the Audi but that orange/red interior lighting "suck"!!!! Looks cheap IMOP."
I never said anywhere that negative comments are not welcome. I said please do so in a constructive manner. You using the word "suck" can be easily treated offensively by some. I don't care if you are a grown man or not. I have seen plenty of occasions where things went for the worst.
Third, I made is very clear it was a message for everyone, asking EVERYONE to be constructive on thief comments, whether they are posers Lexus or against Lexus. If you see anything that you think is unfair, you can always report them and they will be reviewed accordingly.
Fourth, you started it with the post above. And your subsequent really became a more direct personal attack against another member and that's not to be tolerated. That's why I decided to step in with my message. If you can't decide how to talk about matters and instead have to go at the person, that's where you exacctly crossed the line.
I hope I have made myself clear. Now I asking you to leave this thread.
10-15-12, 12:23 AM
#108
I ended up with the 750xi.
Having said that, what I really wanted was the LS600h and was trying to get one. Liked it better from almost every angle. Also tried to stay with Lexus/Toyota, as I has had a good number of them and still own an LX. And was happy with every one of them.
This time around I simply could not do it. Reason? The BMW really wanted my business, Lexus could not care less:
- I was offered 15k less (sic!) for my trade-in when I was negotiating the price for the LS600h, vs what the BMW dealer offered. Also the Lexus dealership lectured me that cars like mine don't sell well and even the price they offered to me was "too much".
- Lexus dealer did not seem interested, did not even attempt to discount the LS and work out a deal with me when I suggested that I could sell my current car privately. The BMW dropped the price by appx 30k.
- The BMW had a selection of colours and especially interior colours, while the LS600h here was available only in black/black. I hate black.
So at the end, both vehicles are excellent in their own way. Sure, I'd prefer to get myself the LS600h, but... now rather happy in the 750xi. The HUD is great, something Lexus needs to catch up with. And the overall price difference was over 40k to the BMWs favour, after the trade-in and all discounts factored in. It was simply too much of a price difference to ignore. BTW, the 750 is pretty loaded with the sport package, executive package, technology package, entertainment package. MSRPs were almost identical when I started negotiations. And it all left bitter taste: so far I was consistently buying Lexus vehicles, yet experienced such arrogance. Prior to that the dealership missed a chance to sell a GS450h, again for the same reason (refusing to discount it for 1.5k from the MSRP!). I have a feeling I was simply pushed over to the competitor, and now less likely to come back.
If you care for any comparison - the 750xi is not as plush and silent as the LS. But it is close. It does drive better however - suspension, cornering, overall weight, it is faster, feels smaller and is a considerably more nimble car. While still more than acceptably comfortable, and pleasant to be inside. The HUD is awesome, the rest of the tech is comparable to the LS and just as capable. It even looks similar to the LS.
I'd like to think they will turn around at some point, but afraid it is too late for me.
Having said that, what I really wanted was the LS600h and was trying to get one. Liked it better from almost every angle. Also tried to stay with Lexus/Toyota, as I has had a good number of them and still own an LX. And was happy with every one of them.
This time around I simply could not do it. Reason? The BMW really wanted my business, Lexus could not care less:
- I was offered 15k less (sic!) for my trade-in when I was negotiating the price for the LS600h, vs what the BMW dealer offered. Also the Lexus dealership lectured me that cars like mine don't sell well and even the price they offered to me was "too much".
- Lexus dealer did not seem interested, did not even attempt to discount the LS and work out a deal with me when I suggested that I could sell my current car privately. The BMW dropped the price by appx 30k.
- The BMW had a selection of colours and especially interior colours, while the LS600h here was available only in black/black. I hate black.
So at the end, both vehicles are excellent in their own way. Sure, I'd prefer to get myself the LS600h, but... now rather happy in the 750xi. The HUD is great, something Lexus needs to catch up with. And the overall price difference was over 40k to the BMWs favour, after the trade-in and all discounts factored in. It was simply too much of a price difference to ignore. BTW, the 750 is pretty loaded with the sport package, executive package, technology package, entertainment package. MSRPs were almost identical when I started negotiations. And it all left bitter taste: so far I was consistently buying Lexus vehicles, yet experienced such arrogance. Prior to that the dealership missed a chance to sell a GS450h, again for the same reason (refusing to discount it for 1.5k from the MSRP!). I have a feeling I was simply pushed over to the competitor, and now less likely to come back.
If you care for any comparison - the 750xi is not as plush and silent as the LS. But it is close. It does drive better however - suspension, cornering, overall weight, it is faster, feels smaller and is a considerably more nimble car. While still more than acceptably comfortable, and pleasant to be inside. The HUD is awesome, the rest of the tech is comparable to the LS and just as capable. It even looks similar to the LS.
I'd like to think they will turn around at some point, but afraid it is too late for me.
Last edited by AKoch; 10-15-12 at 01:01 AM.
10-15-12, 06:27 AM
#109
Lead Lap
Given the trade difference and the discount off of MSRP of the 750 I think anyone would have done the same thing. You may even like it so much that you will never come back to Lexus.
10-15-12, 09:14 AM
#110
I never dismissed your opinion. All I said was that I didn't care about the color of the backlighting enough to have it seriously influence my decision of which car to buy, and I stated that the reason behind the red backlighting was because it didn't effect the driver's night vision like other colors, which is true.
You then in turn told me I was an idiot and that I may as well go buy a Pontiac.
Opinions aren't right or wrong. But, the point of a discussion is to DISCUSS each other's opinions, which is what I tried to do with you by saying why Audi and BMW choose to have red backlighting...which obviously you weren't interested in doing.
Then perhaps you shouldn't choose to participate in a thread where the participants are comparing a Lexus and a BMW. Pretty likely you'll have to read about a BMW in such a thread.
You can choose what you do and do not read on the forum instead of trying to make everybody else discuss only what you want to discuss.
You then in turn told me I was an idiot and that I may as well go buy a Pontiac.
Opinions aren't right or wrong. But, the point of a discussion is to DISCUSS each other's opinions, which is what I tried to do with you by saying why Audi and BMW choose to have red backlighting...which obviously you weren't interested in doing.
Then perhaps you shouldn't choose to participate in a thread where the participants are comparing a Lexus and a BMW. Pretty likely you'll have to read about a BMW in such a thread.
You can choose what you do and do not read on the forum instead of trying to make everybody else discuss only what you want to discuss.
I actually appreciate your comments and your stance. Some people on here feel that Lexus is only choice. They keep stating how German vehicles are "crap" and unreliable. Mainly because they usually have more computers and advanced technology. Lexus is just beginning to catch up and putting more computers in their vehicles, which in turn will have issues at times as well. Nothing is bulletproof, not even Lexus. There's plenty of folks who have had many issues with the LS and other Lexus vehicles and have gone to Mercedes, Audi, and BMW and have had a better experience with reliability and vice versa.
There can be good found in the different car makers, they are not all crap and Lexus is not the only smart choice for a luxury vehicle. Me personally, i like a comfortbale ride with performance and response and excellent all wheel drive for any type of weather. The Audi provides this for me. The 4.2L engine is one of the most reliable engines Audi builds. The quattro all wheel drive system can not be duplicated and is outstanding. Audi along with other german brands engineers cars, and you can tell when you drive one. They come from a history of racing machines and building cars tuned for the Autobahn. German cars are good cars. Their are many german vehicles on the road with 200,000 miles just like japanese vehicles. The Lexus is a cruiser. If thats what your needs are, then good if that is what works for you. You may or may not spend more on maintenance/issues in the long run with a German vs Japanese vehicle. ALL cars need maintenance, and ALL cars have items that fail/need replacing at some point.
For me i see the difference in quality in German brands vs Japanese. Lexus interior/leather does not hold up as well as German cars, and it begins to rattle more with age. They are not built as sturdy, even down to the paint quality. You can tell by the close of the door, or the quality of the interior materials used. A 10 year old german vehicle will usually show better at that age than a 10 year old Lexus/Japanese vehicle. I'm speaking from experience as i have owned Nissan, Acura and Lexus.
Whatever choice is made, whatever Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, there are pros and cons to each. No car is perfect and never will be. You just have to find out what works for you and not stick to a biased belief of what everyone says.
10-15-12, 10:06 AM
#111
My experience was just the opposite to you milellie11. I owned (and still own) - a few Mercedes, BMWs and Audis. The experience in their reliability, quality of engineering and (sic!) the interior quality and longevity was vastly different from what you describe.
May be see my post a couple of entries above. The vehicle I was trading in was an Audi RS4 2007. This 4.2L engine you mentioned, albeit improved, hand-built by Quattro GMBH, more smooth and more power etc etc. Beautiful engine, loved it. In my 5 years of ownership - all 8 ignition coils had to be replaced, one high-pressure fuel pump on the left cylinder bank, intake manifold and intake valve carbon clean up had to be done (man, that as a job), gear box had to be fixed 3 times, clutch replaced 3 times (no, not wear o abuse - pressure plate failure), suspension shocks were replaced 3 times, twice all-around for leaking and losing pressure in the system.
Mercedes has always been a bit more reliable than Audi or BMWs i had, but still a few issues. Oil guide failures for the hydraulic compensators comes to mind.
BMWs were also spotty. To give you and idea about the interior material longevity - after a few years the interior always looked worn. Go look at the used lot, used BMWs always look crappy, comparing to say Lexus. For what it's worth, I bought my current 750 a few months back and it is 10k on it now. The driver's seat already looks older than my 2006 LX470 with 60k on it.
And I owned two LX470, LS400, LS430, SC400, so I can compare trust me. Never had SINGLE issue with either one, typically buying new and selling after 120-150k.
May be see my post a couple of entries above. The vehicle I was trading in was an Audi RS4 2007. This 4.2L engine you mentioned, albeit improved, hand-built by Quattro GMBH, more smooth and more power etc etc. Beautiful engine, loved it. In my 5 years of ownership - all 8 ignition coils had to be replaced, one high-pressure fuel pump on the left cylinder bank, intake manifold and intake valve carbon clean up had to be done (man, that as a job), gear box had to be fixed 3 times, clutch replaced 3 times (no, not wear o abuse - pressure plate failure), suspension shocks were replaced 3 times, twice all-around for leaking and losing pressure in the system.
Mercedes has always been a bit more reliable than Audi or BMWs i had, but still a few issues. Oil guide failures for the hydraulic compensators comes to mind.
BMWs were also spotty. To give you and idea about the interior material longevity - after a few years the interior always looked worn. Go look at the used lot, used BMWs always look crappy, comparing to say Lexus. For what it's worth, I bought my current 750 a few months back and it is 10k on it now. The driver's seat already looks older than my 2006 LX470 with 60k on it.
And I owned two LX470, LS400, LS430, SC400, so I can compare trust me. Never had SINGLE issue with either one, typically buying new and selling after 120-150k.
10-15-12, 10:44 AM
#112
Lead Lap
milellie11,
When comparing reliability you can't really base it on any individual's experience because there are always good and bad experiences. It really needs to be based on a large population which is why you typically look at public ratings on reliability. When you look at the larger population the LS is at the top of the list for reliability and the others are usually lower.
That being said I don't think the others are crap, it just may not be as reliable and I think Lexus owners expect sometimes too much. In 10 years of Lexus ownership, I have only left my car overnight at the dealership twice and both were one night only. When you look at the days in service statistics for other brands Lexus is typically lower. I think many like me don't expect any issues at all but that is unrealistic.
I will probably try out some new brands in the future with Land Rover being the next for my wife since she really likes that truck.
When comparing reliability you can't really base it on any individual's experience because there are always good and bad experiences. It really needs to be based on a large population which is why you typically look at public ratings on reliability. When you look at the larger population the LS is at the top of the list for reliability and the others are usually lower.
That being said I don't think the others are crap, it just may not be as reliable and I think Lexus owners expect sometimes too much. In 10 years of Lexus ownership, I have only left my car overnight at the dealership twice and both were one night only. When you look at the days in service statistics for other brands Lexus is typically lower. I think many like me don't expect any issues at all but that is unrealistic.
I will probably try out some new brands in the future with Land Rover being the next for my wife since she really likes that truck.
Last edited by patgilm; 10-15-12 at 11:15 AM.
10-15-12, 11:08 AM
#113
But wait, Toyota/Lexus has been using this setup for ages. Same time frame as Audi (remember Toyota Celica of the first Audi Quattro vintage? Both competed against each other in WRC?). Ever since Toyota used full TORSEN 50/50 on most of its vehicles. The LS600h has this setup as an example. My LX470 is using this exact setup. I probably should put "quattro" on it then
Only recently Toyota started to cheapen out the transmission, on the later generation RX330/350 (the first one was full TORSEN) etc. Which is a shame.Then it gets even more funny - the newer lower end Audi vehicles these days started to get the HALDEX diffs, such as the current A4 and A3. Still called "quattro" in Audi speak... and this is the company that until recently was saying the nothing compares with quattro which can be nothing less than dual TORSEN 50/50 setup. This is the real LOL.
Last edited by AKoch; 10-15-12 at 11:15 AM.
10-15-12, 03:34 PM
#114
milellie11,
When comparing reliability you can't really base it on any individual's experience because there are always good and bad experiences. It really needs to be based on a large population which is why you typically look at public ratings on reliability. When you look at the larger population the LS is at the top of the list for reliability and the others are usually lower.
That being said I don't think the others are crap, it just may not be as reliable and I think Lexus owners expect sometimes too much. In 10 years of Lexus ownership, I have only left my car overnight at the dealership twice and both were one night only. When you look at the days in service statistics for other brands Lexus is typically lower. I think many like me don't expect any issues at all but that is unrealistic.
I will probably try out some new brands in the future with Land Rover being the next for my wife since she really likes that truck.
When comparing reliability you can't really base it on any individual's experience because there are always good and bad experiences. It really needs to be based on a large population which is why you typically look at public ratings on reliability. When you look at the larger population the LS is at the top of the list for reliability and the others are usually lower.
That being said I don't think the others are crap, it just may not be as reliable and I think Lexus owners expect sometimes too much. In 10 years of Lexus ownership, I have only left my car overnight at the dealership twice and both were one night only. When you look at the days in service statistics for other brands Lexus is typically lower. I think many like me don't expect any issues at all but that is unrealistic.
I will probably try out some new brands in the future with Land Rover being the next for my wife since she really likes that truck.
Regarding service, yes I've had some good experience with Lexus service but also some not so favorable arrogant ones as well. Guess it depends on the dealer.
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