Nextourer

Or leatherette... ugh. Honestly, they used to offer N/C cloth or leatherette. Now they dropped the cloth option and to be honest, leatherette isn't exactly the best material out there. Sitting in a BMW 320i at the auto show two years ago, my legs stuck to the seat (I was wearing shorts and I was in the car for 5 mins).

What I'd like to see is an Alcantara option.

Rockville

get it up to about 94K which should make Stevekil look like a genius.

I finally got to drive the cars yesterday and sit in each one for a few minutes..

I started with the S550 and the first thing that I noticed was all of the chrome buttons on the door just getting in. When I sold Mercedes they were much simpler in design. The increase in complexity will be a problem for the S550 owner and they will simply never use many of the inscrutable switches provided. The Comand system was there for those that want to undertake mastery of it. Best of luck...The first part of the course was very tight 180 degree switchbacks that tested the turning ability. I was relieved that I was able to make it without nudging the cones but I was sweating...The slalom course was next and I floored it and deftly wound around the four sections and was glad that there weren't more as I was starting to yaw. The S Class feels extremely heavy and the steering takes effort too. It was smooth and did well on the off camber sweeper until I hit the sandtrap and then it started to skid sideways. I scrubbed speed and took the next turn at a relaxed pace and then the straight away came into view. I floored it and it's seven speed tranny kicked down nicely and away we went until the end of the straight where I did a panic stop. The ABS was clunky and bring this much weight to a halt was a strain. The Mercedes was a work of art but ergonomics is not its strong suit.... At 92K I'm sure the dealer must discount this model to move it off the lot.

The BMW 750i was next and I was a passenger the first run. The interior leather was impressive and the design theme was well integrated. The back door is difficult to enter as it doesn't fully open. I'm glad I wasn't wearing an expensive suit as it might have gotten caught in the door. The next run I took the wheel and again the switchbacks were the most difficult part of the run as the turning circle is 39.7 feet. The I-Drive went untouched as many owners never bother with it much anyway..The slalom went by without a sweat as was expected. For a big car it handled very well and felt predictable until I hit the sandtrap and then again it slid out. It regained composure quickly and did well on the final straight but not as torquey as the Benz. The braking was better than the S-Class and my overall rating was very good. At about $80,000 if I had a prospect in my showroom for this car I would not let him out of my sight. If he was hungry I would order a steak to be delivered. If he needed to discuss this with his spouse I would have her flown in on a private jet if needed. I would keep the bathroom under surveillance and escort him back to my office as soon as he finished. Drinks would be on me until business was concluded.....

The LS460 felt like home as at least I knew where all of the switches would be. The heated steering wheel felt very silky smooth in my hands and it had a soothing effect. It went through the switchbacks with ease and I was thinking about commercial parking garages would be a snap in the LS460. I attacked the slalom course and felt a little lag in the electric steering. Since this was my first drive I reserved judgment for later. Acceleration was effortless and I could easily get a ticket in this car. There was a tad more body roll than in the BMW but the LS never seemed out of sorts. Since I had VDIM I entered the sandtrap with a little more speed than the others and felt just the slightest correction and barely noticed any change of direction. The straight away beckoned and I gave it all I could and wished I had more asphalt. I'm sure it can give the Benz a run for its money. The panic stop was controlled and composed, VDIM is far superior to the Benz and BMW systems. I believe Stevekil is right. The LS460 is underpriced at $67,242 and Lexus could be accused of dumping. In subsequent runs the LS460L drove even better in the slalom and the steering felt quicker in response. The long wheelbase had that nifty trunk opener feature that I tried after the last run and it slowly opened the trunklid very quietly. The 8" Nav screen is sooo much better than the Euros nav systems in clarity, resolution and brightness. Lastly, the advanced parking assist was so easily executed that it may be possible to do it blindfolded....For $81,000 the owners of the 460L will be laughing at the S Class and 750Li's that are stuck in traffic while the XM realtime tells you about contruction delays, traffic congestion and accidents so you can make other plans in the 44 major metropolitan areas. At least they priced this car closer to its real worth. You will be able to record your favorite CD's to the Mark Levinson's Hard drive and leave the discs at home. The back seat occupants will appreciate the air diffusers in the headliner that cool your hot head in the Summer.....Since you can add enough options to put it in the mid nineties then Lexus has left room for the 600hL to hurdle the six figure barrier.

Rock

Stevekil

Audi confirms my theories. This is exactly what I have been hammering for quite a while and I was alone on my crusade.

Audi knows what it has been doing wrong and knows how to correct it.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...11/024794.html

Lexus is doomed with its cut-rate pricing.

Gojirra99

Nonsense, Audi has to in order to return to profitability, it's far from the case for Lexus. Besides Audi sells even more than BMW & MB in Germany & some other countries despite being cheaper, so it's not a factor at all. It also said in the article it has to do it slowly, so that hardly supports your theory that if you just raise the price, the rich people will automatically flock to it & buy just because it's more expensive.
I think the main key to growing a luxury brand is to get as many to buy your product as possible, so more & more actually will get a taste of how good it really is. As your reputation & image among the owners increase, more will come back to buy again & the more they will recommend the brand to their peers, then you can steadily (but not too quickly)increase the prices(as Lexus have done constantly & steadily in the last 17 years to narrow the gap)

Mercedes wanted to make an ultra lux sedan to compete with RR, so they build a $350K+ sedan which is in the same price range (or even a little more) than the RR Phantom. Last year RR sold 3 times more than the Maybach, which sold way below their projections. A study showed that most people looking for a RR won't even consider a Maybach(yes, the Maybach can be even more expensive than the Phantom). Why ? Maybach is no RR in image despite being more expensive.
It take decades to build up a luxury brand image, just raising the prices to match a much more well established/entrenched competitor will not improve your image automatically.

encore888

I believe slow and steady would be the way to achieve things, just like hard work and fine craftsmanship. The reputation grows over time. IMO the LS 460 may seem somewhat underpriced at first blush, but when you look at the list of options, it's clear that the base LS 460 is rather decontented. And considering how the LS Series now goes up in price to the $95,000 range, that is ambitious indeed. I wonder what the pricing increase of the 4 LS will be over the model cycle, will it be as high as the 1 LS? ($38,000-->$50,000?)

But considering some examples of overly high price increases leading to failures, I think that Lexus would be wise not to jack up the prices in an overly obvious way. Audi can do that, but it sacrifices growth. At the same time there also comes a point when Lexus needs to become more exclusive, having exposed its brand to enough buyers. I think that point is coming soon...but in terms of exposure to the higher end, there is still room.

Nextourer

You figure it's the same thing for Acura? I don't know about the States but in Canada, they've been raising prices like there's no tomorrow.

2004 RSX Premium auto - Cdn$27k
2005 RSX Premium auto - $27k.. same price right? Except they decontented it. To get the same model as the 2004, you have to go for the RSX Premium w/leather for $29k. $2k more!

2005 EL raised the price by a few hundred but lost the body side mouldings which cost $300 as an accessory.
2005 EL Premium auto - $25k
2006 CSX Touring manual - $25,900. CSX Premium Auto - $29,400

06 TSX price raised from $34k (both man and auto) to $35k for manual and $37k for auto. There are some added equipment, however.

2003 RL - $55,000
2004 RL - $69,990. (2006 is $69,500) $15k increase. SH-AWD, nav, 18" alloys, keyless entry/start does not cost $15k.

Acura knows that cause the 2007 RL is $7k cheaper at Cdn$63k.

ultraseven

Sounds like a typical sales pitch from a dealer, but at the Taste of Lexus event in Alameda, CA, I rated all 3 cars based on the albeit short driving experience:

1) BMW
2) MB
3) Lexus

The 7 is much closer to 85G when optioned with most of the popular packages. With dealer discounts it's possible to knock it down to 80, but the MSRP won't be at 80.

The 7 just felt the best around the turns, but the look is still an eyesore for me. The MB felt the heaviest and offered the most secure feeling of all 3, but it wasn't well planted around the corners as the 7. There's definitely a snob factor in this car and that's why MB is charging 90+.

The LS felt the most luxurious, but it also felt soft compared to the Germans. It just didn't feel as well planted - a bit floaty. Power was great but it didnt' seem to have the punch of the Benz. A bargain if you compare it to the other 2 since it is intended compete in the same class, but there are many folks out there who cross shop this car with the likes of E550 and 550i instead.

Stevekil

Yours sounds like a counter-pitch from BMW and Benz. Are you sure you are not a hired mercenery?

If you want to feel those turns, go get a porsche. That might heal the eyesores, "planting, insecurity...

If you want heavy go get queen latifah and/or big fat rolls-roll phantom. And if you want punches then you must get it where you need most.

Take it all in the lighter vein.

Stevekil

Absolutely. Slow and steady is the way to go. Fine craftsmanship has and will continue to build the already great Lexus reputation. Your remarks are right on the mark.

But the example you are hinting at (may be RL comes to mind) is due to bad packaging and marketing and not price increases.

Taking Acura as an example, I think TSX and TL are too close in pricing, and RL and TL are too close in packaging, so that kills the desire for RL.

I think Audi does some savvy marketing but due to cut-rate pricing, lack of SUVs and underpowered engines, it ruins the pleasures of owning an audi. Audi's plans for boosting prices will work wonders for the brand, but thats not the only factor for success. Innovation is the other key. Another problem is lack of differentiation among VW and Audi.

Rockville

and possibly the bridge car for Lexus is the issue. The E Class is more car than the GS Lexus. It is priced like the LS so it is sold across from it. It doesn't have the character of the LS and now the LS460L arrives in a Long wheelbase to do battle with the S Class and 7 Series around $81,000. Lexus needs a luxury sedan that is positioned more like the E Class. A lot of these cars are leased and the terms need to be attractive and the impressions made clear. The numbers of the models create a psychological pecking order. 550 is more than 460. 750 is more than 460. Prestige is still important in this price range so you can't make any apologies or be subordinate.

I can say that I have some pretty upset Mercedes S Class owners that are lining up for the LS460L. One had a problem where the horn would sporadically blare and stay that way while he tried to drive to the dealership. He will never forget the experience and never return to Mercedes. There are others who have been through numerous air suspensions in a year's time. There are various patches that they are summoned to have their S Class downloaded for days at a time. It is a safe bet that the new Lexus LS460 will be reliable and not waste your time continuously in the service lane....

Here in the Northeast Winter weather the LS460 will surely do better with its advanced stability system than either of the fine performing Euros. It will not be spending time on the track after all. The LS out accelerates the BMW and is even up with the S550. The LS600hL will drop the S550 and have a higher number in its moniker. They won't have any E Class to compare to that....

Rock

XeroK00L

I usually agree with you, Rockville, but this has to be the most absurd argument I've heard in a long while. Are you sure you've seen actual cases of people buying a 550i over an LS460 (or LS430 since LS460 hasn't gone on sale) because the number 550 is "more than" 460/430, or is it just your own assumption?

I guess those poeple could do better buying an S2000 instead.

Rockville

a topic introduced by my GM. The Mercedes dealer would argue that the E Class is comparable to the LS430. Since size matters a number in the moniker denotes a certain supremacy regarding engine size. BMW uses a 4.8 Liter engine in their 750i but they round up for this reason. The S550 carries only 2 more Horsepower but 24 more lb. ft of torque yet weighs only 132 lbs more even though it feels like it weighs a ton more! The numbers create an impression and perception is reality to most as crazy at it sounds...

Rock

XeroK00L

If you're talking about the "portion" of the number indicating the size of the engine, then I can understand. Yeah, 5"50" indicates an engine of size 5.0L (or 4.8L in fact) and is greater than a "460", which indicates a 4.6L. And that is why Lexus names the RX and GS hybrids with made up numbers of 400 and 450.

However, in my previous post, I thought you were talking about people treating the "550" number as a whole (hence mathematically 550 > 460). That I wouldn't agree. I don't think anyone buying this car is so dumb that he/she can't tell that the first digit in a "550" means it's a 5-series.

Rockville

an LS500 is more impressive opposite an S550 or 750i. BMW makes its living on the 3 series, Mercedes on the E Class. Lexus on its RX and ES. The LS holds its own against the others but now is stepping up in price category so it needs to be perceived as an equal.

rock