Discussion about "overdoing" maintenance (90k)
11-05-14, 11:00 AM
#1
Discussion about "overdoing" maintenance (90k)
I'm due for my 90k service on my LS430. I have previously had the same service done on an LS400 and GS400 so this is not my first rodeo. I have done the exhaustive Clublexus Lists on both cars which go contrary to the service manual.
In some threads, people stick to what the manual says.
In other threads people include the waterpump
In even more threads people include waterpump, t-stat, Tensioner, Idlers, cam seals etc etc etc which have no mention in the manual.
Being on CL for so long, the attitude of "replace it while you're there" is very prevelant here, but is there REALLY a need?
My friend who is a Toyota service tech which owns an LS430, as well as my mechanic - at a Lexus Dealership in Houston both agree that aside from the waterpump, all the other parts not listed in the manual is overkill. Neither have had experience with failures of these "do it while you're there" parts. My mechanic is actually advising me not to spend the extra money to do the other items because there is no need until the second Timing Belt.
Im open to all opinions on the matter but I have yet to read a single thread that actually reports of failures on the particular parts I have listed here before 200k miles.
Are we all just being TOO cautious and wasting money early on?
In some threads, people stick to what the manual says.
In other threads people include the waterpump
In even more threads people include waterpump, t-stat, Tensioner, Idlers, cam seals etc etc etc which have no mention in the manual.
Being on CL for so long, the attitude of "replace it while you're there" is very prevelant here, but is there REALLY a need?
My friend who is a Toyota service tech which owns an LS430, as well as my mechanic - at a Lexus Dealership in Houston both agree that aside from the waterpump, all the other parts not listed in the manual is overkill. Neither have had experience with failures of these "do it while you're there" parts. My mechanic is actually advising me not to spend the extra money to do the other items because there is no need until the second Timing Belt.
Im open to all opinions on the matter but I have yet to read a single thread that actually reports of failures on the particular parts I have listed here before 200k miles.
Are we all just being TOO cautious and wasting money early on?
11-05-14, 11:24 AM
#2
The first timing belt job it is smart to do the the whole kit. AISIN TKT021. It's $28 more then the other kit. Do the thermostat and radiator cap too. They are cheap and both of those items are not known to have particularly long longevity. Of course, all your fluids replaced - brake, ps, differential, transmission drain and refill. Clean the MAF sensor. You can do that yourself easily. Have the throttle body cleaned and do the spark plugs. They will last to 120k but believe me at nearly 100k they are pretty worn down.
The kit is only $168 from RockAuto
http://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/x,carc...onent_Kit.html
AISIN kit TKT021 includes the following components:
AISIN Water Pump
Koyo Idler Bearing
Koyo Tensioner Bearing
Mitsuboshi Timing Belt
Water Pump Gaskets & O-Rings
At the 200k mile mark you do the cam seals, everything mentioned above, and personally I would also go ahead and do the starter since you are right there. The chance of the starter failing at this mileage is rather high. A re-manufactured Denso starter is only $87. It's the labor that will get you. You have to remove the intake manifold to get to the starter so to do this after is another $600 - $800 easily. The seals are smart because they are known to start leaking at this high mileage and if your have the engine apart why not just replace them. If they start leaking after the 2nd TB/WP job you will be spending a ton of cash for such a cheap rubber seal. Does not make any sense. This was also recommended by Lexus master mechanic LScowboyLS. Some people do the knock sensors too since they are right there by the starter and are very difficult to get to after the fact. The whole idea is that certain preventive maintenance will actually save you a lot in the long run.
Source the OEM parts yourself and pay for labor only. It's the cheapest way.
The kit is only $168 from RockAuto
http://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/x,carc...onent_Kit.html
AISIN kit TKT021 includes the following components:
AISIN Water Pump
Koyo Idler Bearing
Koyo Tensioner Bearing
Mitsuboshi Timing Belt
Water Pump Gaskets & O-Rings
At the 200k mile mark you do the cam seals, everything mentioned above, and personally I would also go ahead and do the starter since you are right there. The chance of the starter failing at this mileage is rather high. A re-manufactured Denso starter is only $87. It's the labor that will get you. You have to remove the intake manifold to get to the starter so to do this after is another $600 - $800 easily. The seals are smart because they are known to start leaking at this high mileage and if your have the engine apart why not just replace them. If they start leaking after the 2nd TB/WP job you will be spending a ton of cash for such a cheap rubber seal. Does not make any sense. This was also recommended by Lexus master mechanic LScowboyLS. Some people do the knock sensors too since they are right there by the starter and are very difficult to get to after the fact. The whole idea is that certain preventive maintenance will actually save you a lot in the long run.
Source the OEM parts yourself and pay for labor only. It's the cheapest way.
Last edited by Lavrishevo; 11-05-14 at 02:27 PM.
11-05-14, 04:16 PM
#3
When I brought my RX330 with 189k miles for the 180k major service and timing belt and water pump 2 months ago, I asked for new tensioner/pulleys and bearings. The toyota mechanic told me the pulleys are usually good for 2 to 3 turns and that he would check the condition of the bearings and repack them if needed. I was going by the information on this forum but I'm sure he's seen enough camrys, highlanders and Siena's with the same engine to know. I did get new cam seals and a thermostat though. It was around $750 for the timing belt and water pump service. By the way, the water pump was original to 189k miles so I lucked out on that one.
On my 01 LS430, the dealer took care of that one at 90k miles and I spent about $1k for just the timing belt and water pump service back in 2007. No pulleys, bearings, thermostat, just timing belt and water pump. I'm sure dealer prices have gone up since.
On my 01 LS430, the dealer took care of that one at 90k miles and I spent about $1k for just the timing belt and water pump service back in 2007. No pulleys, bearings, thermostat, just timing belt and water pump. I'm sure dealer prices have gone up since.
Last edited by LSBen; 11-05-14 at 04:21 PM.
11-05-14, 04:28 PM
#4
Thanks for the replies guys. Two more people I know said to opt out for the pulleys and bearings because there is no point at this mileage and that the T-Stat should last just fine up til 180k. My brother has an IS300 and my mom an LX470. Neither have done the pulleys, idlers or t-stat and they are pushing 200k no issues.
Is there anyone out there with these parts that have failed before 200k?
Is there anyone out there with these parts that have failed before 200k?
11-05-14, 05:49 PM
#5
T-stat is super easy DIY procedure. You can directly access the T-stat. 2 bolts and a new OEM t-stat for 25 dollars. Cheap insurance. I didn't like the look of my original tstat when i replaced it at 125k.
11-05-14, 06:37 PM
#6
I guess the way I look at it is this...how hard is it to change the part (labor), how expensive is the part, and will its failure be catastrophic? Put those in your pipe and smoke on it. It's risk (engine damage, stranded, etc) vs reward (save money, time).
The timing belt, water pump and related pulleys are labor intensive and failure could be catastrophic to the engine. On the other hand, a cam seal may leak and require lots of labor but its not likely going to trash the engine. So it gets a 'pass' if not leaking at the time of Tbelt replacement.
Oh, and as for your question "Are we just being TOO cautious"? The answer most definitely is "YES". Most of us on this forum are, after all, Lexus OCD.
The timing belt, water pump and related pulleys are labor intensive and failure could be catastrophic to the engine. On the other hand, a cam seal may leak and require lots of labor but its not likely going to trash the engine. So it gets a 'pass' if not leaking at the time of Tbelt replacement.
Oh, and as for your question "Are we just being TOO cautious"? The answer most definitely is "YES". Most of us on this forum are, after all, Lexus OCD.
Last edited by randal; 11-06-14 at 01:14 PM.
11-06-14, 03:13 AM
#7
Don't debate on whether or not you should be doing the full service. A proper timing belt replacement will include, the new belt, tensioner, all the pulleys, and the waterpump.
Cam seals are part of the service because oil will cause a belt to fail.
Pulleys are required, a failed pulley will cause a timing belt to walk and fail. Any so called mechanic who says you don't have to replace these is a jackass and should be shot.
I rebuild engines for a living. I know how valves cost, and timing belt failures are extremely expensive on Hondas, don't even get me started on a toyota v8.
The 90k service is done to prolong engine life. Don't stray away from what the engineers say is required. Now there are other cases, where these services allow you to replace parts when needed. The timing belt service is not one of them. Don't be cheap. Do the job right the first time. If you can't afford it, buy a car you can actually afford to fix.
Cam seals are part of the service because oil will cause a belt to fail.
Pulleys are required, a failed pulley will cause a timing belt to walk and fail. Any so called mechanic who says you don't have to replace these is a jackass and should be shot.
I rebuild engines for a living. I know how valves cost, and timing belt failures are extremely expensive on Hondas, don't even get me started on a toyota v8.
The 90k service is done to prolong engine life. Don't stray away from what the engineers say is required. Now there are other cases, where these services allow you to replace parts when needed. The timing belt service is not one of them. Don't be cheap. Do the job right the first time. If you can't afford it, buy a car you can actually afford to fix.
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11-06-14, 09:03 AM
#8
Well I’m going in… My 01 LS has 188,000, I intend to drive it for another 180K. I know for a fact the 90K service less water pump and idlers was completed by the original owner at Denver Lexus dealer.
Last night I ordered a complete timing belt kit, AISIN Part # TKT021, accessory dive belt kit with belt, tensioner and idler, thermostat, upper and lower radiator hoses and Denso radiator. All parts delivered to the house for $450ish from Rock Auto.
I had an experience (not Lexus) with changing a water pump and not changing the timing belt. Of course the timing belt went shortly after that, changed out the timing belt, and didn’t replace the idlers and tensioner. Two weeks later the old tensioner (1995 Mazda Millennia) allowed the timing belt to jump and yep I did the job the 3rd time in a matter of a couple of months. When I replaced the water pump all the timing belt components looked good, no cracks in the belt, no noise or roughness from idlers and the tensioner had plenty of tension or so I thought!
Finally, I learned my lesson and bought a complete kit, never had another issue. I was dumb and lucky at the same time. The motor was non-interference. This above lesson was brought to you by me being cheap.
Why the radiator change? Yes, It’s going to be out anyway, however, my 2001 SAAB 9-5 (SAAB stands for Something Almost Always Broken) the plastic radiator went at 9 years. The above Mazda plastic radiator went at 12 years old. Needless to say neither radiator went in the driveway, tow bills were involved. This LS is 13 years old, I’m betting the price of a $116 radiator that I’m close to another plastic radiator costing me yet another tow bill.
I plan on looking at the brushes and bearings on the alternator. I will also look at cam shaft seals, replacement TBD, I might be hitting a skill level issue on this one.
My opinion and on these higher mileage cars especially interference motors, a $50 or $100 ounce of prevention can easily be worth the price of a new motor. Once again, my opinion plus the experience of the Mazda, (higher mileage) if it rotates or if it’s part of a rotating part I will replace it during the timing belt service.
It all comes down to personal comfort with what risk you are willing to take and what price you are willing to pay to avoid that risk.
I will follow up in a couple of weeks to give the condition of parts coming off.
Last night I ordered a complete timing belt kit, AISIN Part # TKT021, accessory dive belt kit with belt, tensioner and idler, thermostat, upper and lower radiator hoses and Denso radiator. All parts delivered to the house for $450ish from Rock Auto.
I had an experience (not Lexus) with changing a water pump and not changing the timing belt. Of course the timing belt went shortly after that, changed out the timing belt, and didn’t replace the idlers and tensioner. Two weeks later the old tensioner (1995 Mazda Millennia) allowed the timing belt to jump and yep I did the job the 3rd time in a matter of a couple of months. When I replaced the water pump all the timing belt components looked good, no cracks in the belt, no noise or roughness from idlers and the tensioner had plenty of tension or so I thought!
Finally, I learned my lesson and bought a complete kit, never had another issue. I was dumb and lucky at the same time. The motor was non-interference. This above lesson was brought to you by me being cheap.
Why the radiator change? Yes, It’s going to be out anyway, however, my 2001 SAAB 9-5 (SAAB stands for Something Almost Always Broken) the plastic radiator went at 9 years. The above Mazda plastic radiator went at 12 years old. Needless to say neither radiator went in the driveway, tow bills were involved. This LS is 13 years old, I’m betting the price of a $116 radiator that I’m close to another plastic radiator costing me yet another tow bill.
I plan on looking at the brushes and bearings on the alternator. I will also look at cam shaft seals, replacement TBD, I might be hitting a skill level issue on this one.
My opinion and on these higher mileage cars especially interference motors, a $50 or $100 ounce of prevention can easily be worth the price of a new motor. Once again, my opinion plus the experience of the Mazda, (higher mileage) if it rotates or if it’s part of a rotating part I will replace it during the timing belt service.
It all comes down to personal comfort with what risk you are willing to take and what price you are willing to pay to avoid that risk.
I will follow up in a couple of weeks to give the condition of parts coming off.
11-10-14, 08:35 AM
#11
I would skip the cam seals, unless the tech sees a problem when he's in there.
But replace everything that comes with the timing belt/water pump kit. The difference in price is just not that much and 99% of the labor is already being spent to just replace the timing belt and water pump. It just seems odd to me that the tech would just put those parts aside that came with the kit and not replace them. You're talking a few extra minutes to swap.
I do think though some people "overdo" it in the maintenance department, I personally can't see myself "preemptively" replacing an alternator or radiator unless I saw some signs it was going to be a problem. When you get a car that's over 10 years old and 150k plus miles, you can really start making a case that "everything" is on its way out, and it gets expensive. "Might as well replace the fuel pump before it goes out, might as well replace the starter, might as well..., etc"
But replace everything that comes with the timing belt/water pump kit. The difference in price is just not that much and 99% of the labor is already being spent to just replace the timing belt and water pump. It just seems odd to me that the tech would just put those parts aside that came with the kit and not replace them. You're talking a few extra minutes to swap.
I do think though some people "overdo" it in the maintenance department, I personally can't see myself "preemptively" replacing an alternator or radiator unless I saw some signs it was going to be a problem. When you get a car that's over 10 years old and 150k plus miles, you can really start making a case that "everything" is on its way out, and it gets expensive. "Might as well replace the fuel pump before it goes out, might as well replace the starter, might as well..., etc"
11-10-14, 10:47 AM
#12
Thanks for the reply Brad. My service advisor friend ordered the oem parts for me and neither he nor the mechanic said the pulleys/idler/t-stat was necessary and were not a part of their 90k maintenance list. I didn't buy the aisin kit that many people get with the other parts. I got strictly what the local Dealership puts in
I agree at around 150k miles its a good idea to preemptively replace some of the parts you mentioned, especially alternator. With my experience with my old LS and GS, they went out between 170-190k miles
I agree at around 150k miles its a good idea to preemptively replace some of the parts you mentioned, especially alternator. With my experience with my old LS and GS, they went out between 170-190k miles
I would skip the cam seals, unless the tech sees a problem when he's in there.
But replace everything that comes with the timing belt/water pump kit. The difference in price is just not that much and 99% of the labor is already being spent to just replace the timing belt and water pump. It just seems odd to me that the tech would just put those parts aside that came with the kit and not replace them. You're talking a few extra minutes to swap.
I do think though some people "overdo" it in the maintenance department, I personally can't see myself "preemptively" replacing an alternator or radiator unless I saw some signs it was going to be a problem. When you get a car that's over 10 years old and 150k plus miles, you can really start making a case that "everything" is on its way out, and it gets expensive. "Might as well replace the fuel pump before it goes out, might as well replace the starter, might as well..., etc"
But replace everything that comes with the timing belt/water pump kit. The difference in price is just not that much and 99% of the labor is already being spent to just replace the timing belt and water pump. It just seems odd to me that the tech would just put those parts aside that came with the kit and not replace them. You're talking a few extra minutes to swap.
I do think though some people "overdo" it in the maintenance department, I personally can't see myself "preemptively" replacing an alternator or radiator unless I saw some signs it was going to be a problem. When you get a car that's over 10 years old and 150k plus miles, you can really start making a case that "everything" is on its way out, and it gets expensive. "Might as well replace the fuel pump before it goes out, might as well replace the starter, might as well..., etc"
11-11-14, 01:17 PM
#14
For a few dollars extra it makes no sense not to change them. They are right there in front of you when you do the timing belt. I would never pay dealer price for the Kit as its made by Aisin anyway and you can get the kit super cheap at Rockauto. I work on my own cars but if I had to pay someone to do a timing belt, you bet I'd have them change everything in there. A failed pulley has the same results as a failed belt - trashed motor.
Why change the belt if you're not replacing the things the belt it riding on and keeping the tension it needs? Y
Like the pulleys and tensioner, you rarely ever hear of a belt failing either.............................
Why change the belt if you're not replacing the things the belt it riding on and keeping the tension it needs? Y
Like the pulleys and tensioner, you rarely ever hear of a belt failing either.............................
11-12-14, 10:19 PM
#15
It would be a foolish mistake to not replace the pulleys and tensioner while in there.
I did have a vehicle suffer from this - an Acura dealer not replace the tensioner on a t-belt change. The tensioner failed 50k miles later, loosing time. A pointless exercise over a small dollar part. The OE tensioner in the Acura, btw, is the same Asin piece Lexus uses as OE. It might make it to 180k, it might not. Some don't. Ditto w/pulleys.
I did have a vehicle suffer from this - an Acura dealer not replace the tensioner on a t-belt change. The tensioner failed 50k miles later, loosing time. A pointless exercise over a small dollar part. The OE tensioner in the Acura, btw, is the same Asin piece Lexus uses as OE. It might make it to 180k, it might not. Some don't. Ditto w/pulleys.