Motor Overheated - Removal / Rebuild Step 1
07-13-14, 04:24 PM
#46
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Thanks for posting all of those pictures, it would be great if maybe a moderator could save them on the site for future reference so they don't get lost on Photobucket.
I'm glad you kept with the project, but I have to say, if it was me, I would have just bought a used LS with lower miles and sold the old car for parts. This looks like a long and expensive project, even if you do the work yourself. And months of downtime would be a real issue for me.
With 200k miles and needing a new engine and transmission, I would thing just about everything is getting close to needing to be replaced, including the entire suspension, fuel system, sensors, injectors, etc. I would rather gamble on one with 100k miles and take my losses, but that would be incredibly boring.
I'm glad you kept with the project, but I have to say, if it was me, I would have just bought a used LS with lower miles and sold the old car for parts. This looks like a long and expensive project, even if you do the work yourself. And months of downtime would be a real issue for me.
With 200k miles and needing a new engine and transmission, I would thing just about everything is getting close to needing to be replaced, including the entire suspension, fuel system, sensors, injectors, etc. I would rather gamble on one with 100k miles and take my losses, but that would be incredibly boring.
I understand your perspective. I think parting-out the car would probably take as much time as swapping out the motor. After I swap the motor the car is probably worth $6K. I'm always on the lookout for another LS430 with less miles and plan to buy an additional one if a good deal shows up.
You roll the dice one way or the other. For around $3K I will be getting a clean body and a very new motor that should last another 150K miles. You would be shocked at the great condition of all the other parts I have inspected. The exhaust system looks new, the drive line looks new. The alternator, AC pump, PS pump were in great condition too.
Final thought is if the radiator is old, just swap it out. Don't risk the failure I had over a four finger plastic prong wearing out.
07-24-14, 04:09 PM
#47
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Used Motor Installed
So bought a motor on ebay from jdmshopusa_inc. With 200 feedback at 100% I thought it was a risk worth taking.
I picked the motor up at the dock. It was packed on on a pallet with shrink wrap and held down by wires at six points. I immediately checked the oil quality (not much oil left in the motor). It was clear and smelled good. Then removed timing belt cover and inspected the timing belt. Looks like new condition. The air intake looks great compared to mine. The only issue I can see is that the aluminum on the motor has oxidized in places--most likely due to the marine air in Japan / Florida.
The transmission pan does not have a dip stick like my motor. The pan was dented from shipping and the seal is cracked. So I am going to use my pan and dip stick. I fear that filling the system is going to be a pain. But, whatever.
One of the 'pins' (bolts) that attach the catalytic converter to the exhaust manifold was stripped and so I had to remove it without proper tools. Note to self, use the right tools. It took 30 minutes to get the pin off. Will buy new with nuts for re-assembly.
Getting the motor in was much harder than getting it out.
1. Get motor to right height on hoist.
2. Have helper hold up tranny to clear AC condenser.
3. Lower motor, push back.
4. Repeat 3 until you bind on rear fire wall.
5. Get support under the car for the tranny using a jack.
6. Crank-up tranny, lower motor, watch for things to bind.
7. Repeat 6 until you get close to having motor mounts in.
8. Watch driver side power steering lines. The motor mount on that side wants to get stuck there. It's really hard to clear this area without the possibility of doing damage to those lines.
9. Shimmy one motor mount into the slot.
10. Lightly bolt that mount in. You don't want to lose your hard work by having this pop out again.
11. Shimmy motor, tranny, lower/raise motor until you get other mount in.
Steps 1,2,3,4 takes less than 15 minutes
Steps 5-7 takes about 15 minutes
Step 8 could take up to 45 minutes.
Steps 9-11 could take up to 45 minutes
Consider yourself lucky if the above takes less time.
At the end of the process you remind yourself that this step only has to happen every 15 years.
Will take some pictures of the re assembly process.
Documenting the the motor install is a worthless exercise unless you want to see a lot of cursing, hard work, etc.
I picked the motor up at the dock. It was packed on on a pallet with shrink wrap and held down by wires at six points. I immediately checked the oil quality (not much oil left in the motor). It was clear and smelled good. Then removed timing belt cover and inspected the timing belt. Looks like new condition. The air intake looks great compared to mine. The only issue I can see is that the aluminum on the motor has oxidized in places--most likely due to the marine air in Japan / Florida.
The transmission pan does not have a dip stick like my motor. The pan was dented from shipping and the seal is cracked. So I am going to use my pan and dip stick. I fear that filling the system is going to be a pain. But, whatever.
One of the 'pins' (bolts) that attach the catalytic converter to the exhaust manifold was stripped and so I had to remove it without proper tools. Note to self, use the right tools. It took 30 minutes to get the pin off. Will buy new with nuts for re-assembly.
Getting the motor in was much harder than getting it out.
1. Get motor to right height on hoist.
2. Have helper hold up tranny to clear AC condenser.
3. Lower motor, push back.
4. Repeat 3 until you bind on rear fire wall.
5. Get support under the car for the tranny using a jack.
6. Crank-up tranny, lower motor, watch for things to bind.
7. Repeat 6 until you get close to having motor mounts in.
8. Watch driver side power steering lines. The motor mount on that side wants to get stuck there. It's really hard to clear this area without the possibility of doing damage to those lines.
9. Shimmy one motor mount into the slot.
10. Lightly bolt that mount in. You don't want to lose your hard work by having this pop out again.
11. Shimmy motor, tranny, lower/raise motor until you get other mount in.
Steps 1,2,3,4 takes less than 15 minutes
Steps 5-7 takes about 15 minutes
Step 8 could take up to 45 minutes.
Steps 9-11 could take up to 45 minutes
Consider yourself lucky if the above takes less time.
At the end of the process you remind yourself that this step only has to happen every 15 years.
Will take some pictures of the re assembly process.
Documenting the the motor install is a worthless exercise unless you want to see a lot of cursing, hard work, etc.
Last edited by AndreasMet; 07-24-14 at 04:12 PM.
07-25-14, 01:01 PM
#49
AndreasMet...we're also very interested to hear the actual diagnosis on the bad engine, when you get around to it. As I recall, it was not definitive as to what parts were actually damaged and causing problems.
07-25-14, 09:13 PM
#50
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Transmission Woes
.Any way, since the tranny pan was dented I figured it would be easy to swap the pan and dip stick. Well no such luck.
As it turns out the motor is younger than my original. They did a slight tranny change and the old pan is not compatible (it has a slightly different footprint, and the uptake filter inside is different). So I'm going with the current pan dents and all.
I blasted the inside guts of the tranny with carb cleaner. The tranny fluid looked good and there was not much metal attached to the magnets. Everything is clean and ready for parts.
Still need to do about four more hours of work and then the moment of truth. It will be a miracle if it runs.
By the way, it's harder to re-assemble. Stuff does not want to go together easily, stuff gets stuck or stripped. But keep pushing forward.
07-27-14, 12:10 PM
#51
Yes, I'm going to break the motor down a little bit and post what I find. Probably could have fixed it for $300.
Any way, since the tranny pan was dented I figured it would be easy to swap the pan and dip stick. Well no such luck.
As it turns out the motor is younger than my original. They did a slight tranny change and the old pan is not compatible (it has a slightly different footprint, and the uptake filter inside is different). So I'm going with the current pan dents and all.
I blasted the inside guts of the tranny with carb cleaner. The tranny fluid looked good and there was not much metal attached to the magnets. Everything is clean and ready for parts.
Still need to do about four more hours of work and then the moment of truth. It will be a miracle if it runs.
By the way, it's harder to re-assemble. Stuff does not want to go together easily, stuff gets stuck or stripped. But keep pushing forward.
.Any way, since the tranny pan was dented I figured it would be easy to swap the pan and dip stick. Well no such luck.
As it turns out the motor is younger than my original. They did a slight tranny change and the old pan is not compatible (it has a slightly different footprint, and the uptake filter inside is different). So I'm going with the current pan dents and all.
I blasted the inside guts of the tranny with carb cleaner. The tranny fluid looked good and there was not much metal attached to the magnets. Everything is clean and ready for parts.
Still need to do about four more hours of work and then the moment of truth. It will be a miracle if it runs.
By the way, it's harder to re-assemble. Stuff does not want to go together easily, stuff gets stuck or stripped. But keep pushing forward.
07-27-14, 12:46 PM
#52
LOL! I know very well that feeling! Don't worry - she'll run. Patience in getting everything back together and hooked up correclty is the order of the day. Good luck in firing her up.
07-27-14, 07:45 PM
#53
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Because my car is a 2002 and the motor they sent me is 2005 or later, there are slight differences in the transmission dimensions. And probably wiring.
The tranny dimension means the shifter bar is too short (I think) so it's not hooked up yet. The bracket that mounts the front exhaust to the tranny did not fit by 1/2" so I had to angle grind and bend. Yikes.
But it's all put together and of course when I go to fire it up it does not turn over. That is too be expected.
I put a jumper across the starter relay to bypass the pre-ignition logic and the motor turns over but does not fire. That's great news because I know the starter is good.
Not sure how long it takes the fuel injection to prime but I would figure less than a minute of firing time.
Tomorrow is a day of research to see what to do next. will most likely take it to a shop and have them finish. Debugging motors is not something I can do today. Maybe spend a day tinkering. If I can't get it right it's off the the pro's to get it right.
Pretty much everything I have done to date would have been done by a shop the same way. I would have paid a lot of extra for all the 'tweaks' so far. I will outline these once I get the motor running.
If anyone has any suggestions for failure to ignite please let me know.
Thanks!
08-08-14, 10:34 AM
#54
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
This is What Happens When You Are Clueless!
So it's been a while and I thought it would be a good time to provide an update.
I got the motor installed and everything hooked-up. Of course it did not start.
To make a long story short, you need to watch out that the motor / transmission configuration will work in your year - model car.
The problem in my case is I bought a very low mileage motor / transmission but that made it a different transmission, throttle body and alternator configuration.
While this may seem trivial--it's not trivial for a beginner like me. You see, the wiring is different. That means I ended-up using the new harness and new ECM. That should not be a big deal, right?
Well the issue is the 2002 immobilizer will never communicate with the 2005 ECM. I use the word never in a loose way. You see an expert in these motors and in wire configuration could probably make this work. But someone like me will never figure it out.
So the solution is to use the old transmission, old harness, old ECM and swap throttle bodies.
Please be on the lookout for these kinds of problems.
In retrospect I don't regret the choice I made. There are tradeoffs to be made. By going lower miles I avoided needing to change the timing belt so I saved there in terms of time and money.
This is a good education. I'm still planning to break the old motor down and document that.
Also, I will have a very low miles 2005 transmission available for sale.
I got the motor installed and everything hooked-up. Of course it did not start.
To make a long story short, you need to watch out that the motor / transmission configuration will work in your year - model car.
The problem in my case is I bought a very low mileage motor / transmission but that made it a different transmission, throttle body and alternator configuration.
While this may seem trivial--it's not trivial for a beginner like me. You see, the wiring is different. That means I ended-up using the new harness and new ECM. That should not be a big deal, right?
Well the issue is the 2002 immobilizer will never communicate with the 2005 ECM. I use the word never in a loose way. You see an expert in these motors and in wire configuration could probably make this work. But someone like me will never figure it out.
So the solution is to use the old transmission, old harness, old ECM and swap throttle bodies.
Please be on the lookout for these kinds of problems.
In retrospect I don't regret the choice I made. There are tradeoffs to be made. By going lower miles I avoided needing to change the timing belt so I saved there in terms of time and money.
This is a good education. I'm still planning to break the old motor down and document that.
Also, I will have a very low miles 2005 transmission available for sale
.
08-13-14, 01:29 PM
#56
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
I took the car to a shop to do some work while out of town. The motor starts fine now, but have not driven the car yet. I'm certain it's going to run just fine.
The reason I took it to a shop is because we need to run the old transmission. I found it almost impossible to remove the transmission with the car on jacks because some of the hard to reach bolt's would not loosen. That meant I would have had to take the motor out and put it back in. I don't have the time to do that again at the moment.
Here are some watch outs for people wanting to do a swap like this:
1. Make sure the motor and transmission are truly compatible. I would stick with same year same year swaps for LS 430. Here were some issues:
a. 2005 transmission is 6 speed, 2003 is 5 speed. To use old ECM would require advanced knowledge (if even possible) of how to re-wire.
b. 2005 throttle body electronic wiring is different than 2003. Same wiring issue as above.
c. Knock sensor is different wiring between 2005 and 2003. Same wiring issue as above.
d. Alternator wiring is different between 2005 and 2003. Same wiring issue as above.
2. So using old ECM and new engine/tranny is impossible. What about using 2005 ECM?
a. Immobilizer from 2003 will never talk to 2005 ECM.
b. Wiring is different. There's 130 things you need to verify, even after you get the immobilizer issue resolved.
Even an expert would need time ($$$) to figure out the above. Not good.
So the solution is to use the old harness, old tranny, new motor, old throttle body, old alternator, old knock sensor.
If I had know all of these things then the process would have been relatively easy. The exception being that I would have had to do a timing belt change off the bat.
So far the JDM motor experience is very good.
So while I lost in one respect, I gained in another. It cost me an extra $1,000 for all the effort.
The learning so far will pay for itself the moment I swap my F150 motor. That job looks like a piece of cake in comparison.
The reason I took it to a shop is because we need to run the old transmission. I found it almost impossible to remove the transmission with the car on jacks because some of the hard to reach bolt's would not loosen. That meant I would have had to take the motor out and put it back in. I don't have the time to do that again at the moment.
Here are some watch outs for people wanting to do a swap like this:
1. Make sure the motor and transmission are truly compatible. I would stick with same year same year swaps for LS 430. Here were some issues:
a. 2005 transmission is 6 speed, 2003 is 5 speed. To use old ECM would require advanced knowledge (if even possible) of how to re-wire.
b. 2005 throttle body electronic wiring is different than 2003. Same wiring issue as above.
c. Knock sensor is different wiring between 2005 and 2003. Same wiring issue as above.
d. Alternator wiring is different between 2005 and 2003. Same wiring issue as above.
2. So using old ECM and new engine/tranny is impossible. What about using 2005 ECM?
a. Immobilizer from 2003 will never talk to 2005 ECM.
b. Wiring is different. There's 130 things you need to verify, even after you get the immobilizer issue resolved.
Even an expert would need time ($$$) to figure out the above. Not good.
So the solution is to use the old harness, old tranny, new motor, old throttle body, old alternator, old knock sensor.
If I had know all of these things then the process would have been relatively easy. The exception being that I would have had to do a timing belt change off the bat.
So far the JDM motor experience is very good.
So while I lost in one respect, I gained in another. It cost me an extra $1,000 for all the effort.
The learning so far will pay for itself the moment I swap my F150 motor. That job looks like a piece of cake in comparison.
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LS - 3rd Gen (2001-2006)
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