LS430 or M5: Which is better??
09-28-11, 10:04 PM
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LS430 or M5: Which is better??
Hi guys,
I know, apples to oranges, but hopefully it got your attention.
I am new to the forum and considering purchasing an LS430 to limit the miles on my current daily driven sports car and have some (actually a lot) questions about the LS430. The only Lexus I have ever owned was an SC400 and that was back in the 90's and it was great car. In regards to sedans, I have owned M5's since 2000 (both v8 e39's and v10 e60's). I sold my e60 over a year ago after the warranty expired, so I am currently sedanless. With that said, the e39 M5 was the best sedan I have ever owned and still under consideration if I could get get over the worries of costly repairs. I've just had my fair share of VANOS and SMG related problems over the years.
To be honest, I never considered an LS before, but now I want a very reliable luxury sedan as a daily driver and can forgo the sport aspect, since my current sports car is fairly hardcore. Also, I plan to start modding it, which will void the warranty, so I want to have at least one car that I don't have to worry about. The LS430 appears to be a good choice.
Here are my questions:
1. Other than the 6-speed transmission, are there any significant improvements in the 04-06 cars versus the 01-03? I know there were some slight cosmetic changes, but mechanically it appears to primarily be the transmission. Is the 6-speed a lot better?
2. Are the later years (04-06) more reliable?
3. How much better handling is the "Euro tuned sport" suspension versus the standard one?
4. Does the optional Adaptive air suspension handle worse than the standard suspension?
5. Is the Mark Levinson audio system significantly better than the standard system? I definitely consider myself an audiophile and want to know if my search needs to include the ML upgrade.
6. Is the Ultra Luxury option considered a plus and if so, who much of a premium does it demand on used cars? I like the extra luxury options including the extras for the rear passengers, but realistically, my kids will never appreciate them. Also, I think the air suspension is probably a detriment on handling performance and cost of repair. Is this true?
7. What is the cost to repair the air suspension shocks and how likely are they to fail on higher mileage cars? Do failures occur less on the newer models?
8. Is the LS430 a DIY in regards to maintenance and general repairs? I would prefer to avoid the dealer as much as possible.
9. What are mechanical items that typically fail on these cars and the cost to replace?
10. How much can i expect to pay in annual service and repairs?
11. Is the LS430 a higher quality vehicle compared to the GS430? If so, are we talking a little or a lot? Are they comparable in reliability?
Originally, I was considering the GS over the LS since they are supposed to be sportier and I truly do not need a full-size sedan, but if the LS is a much better car, I would probably choose it instead. Or do you guys think the GS430 is a better choice than the LS430 for an ex M5 owner?
The advice is greatly appreciated.
Rick
I know, apples to oranges, but hopefully it got your attention.
I am new to the forum and considering purchasing an LS430 to limit the miles on my current daily driven sports car and have some (actually a lot) questions about the LS430. The only Lexus I have ever owned was an SC400 and that was back in the 90's and it was great car. In regards to sedans, I have owned M5's since 2000 (both v8 e39's and v10 e60's). I sold my e60 over a year ago after the warranty expired, so I am currently sedanless. With that said, the e39 M5 was the best sedan I have ever owned and still under consideration if I could get get over the worries of costly repairs. I've just had my fair share of VANOS and SMG related problems over the years.
To be honest, I never considered an LS before, but now I want a very reliable luxury sedan as a daily driver and can forgo the sport aspect, since my current sports car is fairly hardcore. Also, I plan to start modding it, which will void the warranty, so I want to have at least one car that I don't have to worry about. The LS430 appears to be a good choice.
Here are my questions:
1. Other than the 6-speed transmission, are there any significant improvements in the 04-06 cars versus the 01-03? I know there were some slight cosmetic changes, but mechanically it appears to primarily be the transmission. Is the 6-speed a lot better?
2. Are the later years (04-06) more reliable?
3. How much better handling is the "Euro tuned sport" suspension versus the standard one?
4. Does the optional Adaptive air suspension handle worse than the standard suspension?
5. Is the Mark Levinson audio system significantly better than the standard system? I definitely consider myself an audiophile and want to know if my search needs to include the ML upgrade.
6. Is the Ultra Luxury option considered a plus and if so, who much of a premium does it demand on used cars? I like the extra luxury options including the extras for the rear passengers, but realistically, my kids will never appreciate them. Also, I think the air suspension is probably a detriment on handling performance and cost of repair. Is this true?
7. What is the cost to repair the air suspension shocks and how likely are they to fail on higher mileage cars? Do failures occur less on the newer models?
8. Is the LS430 a DIY in regards to maintenance and general repairs? I would prefer to avoid the dealer as much as possible.
9. What are mechanical items that typically fail on these cars and the cost to replace?
10. How much can i expect to pay in annual service and repairs?
11. Is the LS430 a higher quality vehicle compared to the GS430? If so, are we talking a little or a lot? Are they comparable in reliability?
Originally, I was considering the GS over the LS since they are supposed to be sportier and I truly do not need a full-size sedan, but if the LS is a much better car, I would probably choose it instead. Or do you guys think the GS430 is a better choice than the LS430 for an ex M5 owner?
The advice is greatly appreciated.
Rick
Last edited by Swanson; 09-28-11 at 11:03 PM.
09-29-11, 03:07 AM
#2
Recovering Lexus Addict
1. Other than the 6-speed transmission, are there any significant improvements in the 04-06 cars versus the 01-03? I know there were some slight cosmetic changes, but mechanically it appears to primarily be the transmission. Is the 6-speed a lot better?
I believe SmartAccess (keyless start, etc.) became available in the U.S. with the 2004 MY. Both the 5 and 6 speed transmissions have been reliable, aside from a recall on early 2004 6 speeds. The 5 speed tranny has a fluid replacement schedule and fluid changes are fairly straight forward. The 6 speed tranny supposedly has lifetime fluid and changing it is a bit of a PITA. Some dealers don't want to do it citing Toyota's lifetime claim.
2. Are the later years (04-06) more reliable?
IMO, about the same.
3. How much better handling is the "Euro tuned sport" suspension versus the standard one?
Somewhat better, but it didn't seem to mesh with the rest of the car when I took a test drive. I think the standard suspension with some upgraded components provides a more appropriate ride.
4. Does the optional Adaptive air suspension handle worse than the standard suspension?
Supposedly better.
5. Is the Mark Levinson audio system significantly better than the standard system? I definitely consider myself an audiophile and want to know if my search needs to include the ML upgrade.
Better, but not audiophile and not liking music tastes that trend toward heavy bass.
6. Is the Ultra Luxury option considered a plus and if so, who much of a premium does it demand on used cars? I like the extra luxury options including the extras for the rear passengers, but realistically, my kids will never appreciate them. Also, I think the air suspension is probably a detriment on handling performance and cost of repair. Is this true?
Do some reading here and you will get an idea on the air suspension issues and costs. I bought a Custom Luxury trim which has many of the UL features without the air suspension and back seat amenities.
7. What is the cost to repair the air suspension shocks and how likely are they to fail on higher mileage cars? Do failures occur less on the newer models?
Yes, do some reading here. It seems to be >$1K per corner to replace it with OEM components. Others go to coil overs or another solution.
8. Is the LS430 a DIY in regards to maintenance and general repairs? I would prefer to avoid the dealer as much as possible.
There are some threads about this and generally the consensus seems that the car is fairly DIY friendly. I use the dealer because I tend to throw tools.
9. What are mechanical items that typically fail on these cars and the cost to replace?
Air suspension on UL. Folding/adjusting mirrors and tilt/telescope steering column motors on all cars.
10. How much can i expect to pay in annual service and repairs?
Carguy just quoted a figure of about $1200 for him, IIRC. I believe he also used the dealer in his first year.
11. Is the LS430 a higher quality vehicle compared to the GS430? If so, are we talking a little or a lot? Are they comparable in reliability?
From my understanding, the LS is a superior vehicle in quality and reliability. The LS was built as the flagship sedan.
Good luck in your search. Go on some test drives. I generally found that well maintained LSs tended to drive very well and consistently. Remember that when you find a car that looks promising, you can enter the VIN on the Lexus user site and get the full service history. Look for regular visits and no red flags. If a car has big holes in the service history, pass on it unless you have other documentation of independent service.
I believe SmartAccess (keyless start, etc.) became available in the U.S. with the 2004 MY. Both the 5 and 6 speed transmissions have been reliable, aside from a recall on early 2004 6 speeds. The 5 speed tranny has a fluid replacement schedule and fluid changes are fairly straight forward. The 6 speed tranny supposedly has lifetime fluid and changing it is a bit of a PITA. Some dealers don't want to do it citing Toyota's lifetime claim.
2. Are the later years (04-06) more reliable?
IMO, about the same.
3. How much better handling is the "Euro tuned sport" suspension versus the standard one?
Somewhat better, but it didn't seem to mesh with the rest of the car when I took a test drive. I think the standard suspension with some upgraded components provides a more appropriate ride.
4. Does the optional Adaptive air suspension handle worse than the standard suspension?
Supposedly better.
5. Is the Mark Levinson audio system significantly better than the standard system? I definitely consider myself an audiophile and want to know if my search needs to include the ML upgrade.
Better, but not audiophile and not liking music tastes that trend toward heavy bass.
6. Is the Ultra Luxury option considered a plus and if so, who much of a premium does it demand on used cars? I like the extra luxury options including the extras for the rear passengers, but realistically, my kids will never appreciate them. Also, I think the air suspension is probably a detriment on handling performance and cost of repair. Is this true?
Do some reading here and you will get an idea on the air suspension issues and costs. I bought a Custom Luxury trim which has many of the UL features without the air suspension and back seat amenities.
7. What is the cost to repair the air suspension shocks and how likely are they to fail on higher mileage cars? Do failures occur less on the newer models?
Yes, do some reading here. It seems to be >$1K per corner to replace it with OEM components. Others go to coil overs or another solution.
8. Is the LS430 a DIY in regards to maintenance and general repairs? I would prefer to avoid the dealer as much as possible.
There are some threads about this and generally the consensus seems that the car is fairly DIY friendly. I use the dealer because I tend to throw tools.
9. What are mechanical items that typically fail on these cars and the cost to replace?
Air suspension on UL. Folding/adjusting mirrors and tilt/telescope steering column motors on all cars.
10. How much can i expect to pay in annual service and repairs?
Carguy just quoted a figure of about $1200 for him, IIRC. I believe he also used the dealer in his first year.
11. Is the LS430 a higher quality vehicle compared to the GS430? If so, are we talking a little or a lot? Are they comparable in reliability?
From my understanding, the LS is a superior vehicle in quality and reliability. The LS was built as the flagship sedan.
Good luck in your search. Go on some test drives. I generally found that well maintained LSs tended to drive very well and consistently. Remember that when you find a car that looks promising, you can enter the VIN on the Lexus user site and get the full service history. Look for regular visits and no red flags. If a car has big holes in the service history, pass on it unless you have other documentation of independent service.
09-29-11, 11:55 AM
#4
Lexus Test Driver
^great summary by Caddy. Maintenance costs kind of vary. The first service I had was pretty cheap (and yes I go to my local Lexus dealer because they can track my maintenance intervals and so that things get done properly) because I had a free oil change from buying CPO (was like $70 or less I think). However, my second one raised a bunch of fluid flushes and changes. I pretty much followed the recommended by my SA and broke it into half. It cost about $500 for my 35k mi service and will cost roughly $500 for my next 40k mi service. I figure you should consider $1k towards upkeep, some years will be cheaper and others more expensive (think brakes, timing belt etc).
I am a huge fan of the M5s as well, but didn't get one due to insurance costs. Pretty much nothing beats the sound of the E60's V10 with a custom exhaust.
I am a huge fan of the M5s as well, but didn't get one due to insurance costs. Pretty much nothing beats the sound of the E60's V10 with a custom exhaust.
Last edited by CarGuy89; 09-29-11 at 01:25 PM.
09-29-11, 05:26 PM
#5
I have the LS and drove the 010 535xi so if the m5 is a step above or two that I would make this comparison. Kinda like marrying yur HS dependable tried and true sweetheart, and the hottest funnest blonde in the class. Higher maintenance, harder to please, always getting looks wherever ya go but eventually she ages and yur not sure what yur gonna do to keep her up or the value is there anymore. if I had the cash to spend on cars I would have the 535Xi or the M5 versus the LS in a second but the turbos, some of the V8's V 10's get real finicky.
Good ta here from ya Cadman.
Good ta here from ya Cadman.
09-29-11, 06:33 PM
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Thanks for all the feedback guys. I appreciate all the information and this will help in my decision.
I believe the LS430 is a better quality car than the GS430. On a scale of 1 to 10 and the LS was a 10 in terms of quality and reliability, how would the GS 430 rank? How about if handling were the criteria?
How much more does a 2005 sell for versus a 2002 with the same options and mileage?
I agree that cars can sometimes be compared to women and the v10 M5 is definitely hot in the bedroom and nice to showoff at the mall. However, after the honeymoon (warranty) is over, the M5 and the hot blond might drive you crazy and drain your bank account at the same time.
I know the high school sweetheart is very reliable, but is she good in bed too?
I believe the LS430 is a better quality car than the GS430. On a scale of 1 to 10 and the LS was a 10 in terms of quality and reliability, how would the GS 430 rank? How about if handling were the criteria?
How much more does a 2005 sell for versus a 2002 with the same options and mileage?
I agree that cars can sometimes be compared to women and the v10 M5 is definitely hot in the bedroom and nice to showoff at the mall. However, after the honeymoon (warranty) is over, the M5 and the hot blond might drive you crazy and drain your bank account at the same time.
I know the high school sweetheart is very reliable, but is she good in bed too?
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10-02-11, 03:58 PM
#9
I thought this could be a comparison thread... I was about to say, comparing the two is like comparing Luke's Landspeeder to the Millenium Falcon, it's two different vehicles. The LS430 is nowhere close in "performance" I feel than the M5 and I'm only really comparing to the 550i which I've driven and not an M5 which should be superior to even the 550i. If you then reverse and consider reliability and comfort, then the M5 is really like the Millenium Falcon, just an old piece of junk. 
1. Other than the 6-speed transmission, are there any significant improvements in the 04-06 cars versus the 01-03? I know there were some slight cosmetic changes, but mechanically it appears to primarily be the transmission. Is the 6-speed a lot better?
<< mechanically, just the transmission, but electronically you get the backup camera and bluetooth too, with NAV models. >>
2. Are the later years (04-06) more reliable?
<< if you consider the early year '04 recalls for the transmission, you can argue that the '04-'06 were actually less reliable. >>
3. How much better handling is the "Euro tuned sport" suspension versus the standard one?
<< only test drove one with the Sport Suspension and from the 4 miles I may have driven it, I really couldn't tell all that much difference. Air on the other hand, I did feel a pretty good amount of stiffness to the ride, but could have been from the 18" wheels too that were on there. >>
4. Does the optional Adaptive air suspension handle worse than the standard suspension?
<< Worse? It handles better. If by worse you mean harder to fix and more expensive, then see #7 below >>
5. Is the Mark Levinson audio system significantly better than the standard system? I definitely consider myself an audiophile and want to know if my search needs to include the ML upgrade.
<< I have it, not all that impressed with it's lack of bass. I feel my old RX and MDX radios have better quality for my ears, but that's just me. >>
6. Is the Ultra Luxury option considered a plus and if so, who much of a premium does it demand on used cars? I like the extra luxury options including the extras for the rear passengers, but realistically, my kids will never appreciate them. Also, I think the air suspension is probably a detriment on handling performance and cost of repair. Is this true?
<< the cost of possible repair to the air suspension trumped the extra goodies in back. Also, with three kids for me, the rear seat options are gone and just extra for them to break. If "I" can't enjoy it, then why am I getting it? >>
7. What is the cost to repair the air suspension shocks and how likely are they to fail on higher mileage cars? Do failures occur less on the newer models?
<< they seem to fail anywhere between 75K on the few-far-apart low side, and some have gone 150K without reported failure, so not sure what average is. If you do hit your magic number, they're about $1500 each to replace. >>
8. Is the LS430 a DIY in regards to maintenance and general repairs? I would prefer to avoid the dealer as much as possible.
<< '04 has sealed transmission, so fluid technically never needs replacing. Oil is easiest of any car I've ever owned. The plugs should be easy as well. Air filters are all easy and within reach. Basic maintenance I think are easy on this car. >>
9. What are mechanical items that typically fail on these cars and the cost to replace?
<< besides the air, nothing really has been a nagging issue on the LS. It's got a lot of electronics, so you might get a "lemon" and minor electrical things pop up. >>
10. How much can i expect to pay in annual service and repairs?
<< I've owned mine since 2008 and I'm putting about 12,000 miles/year on her, and at $30/oil change (DIY with Mobil1) I'm spending about $90 in oil changes, another $15 in air filters, averaging out my tire expense, $100 in tire life/year, so $220 let's say. >>
11. Is the LS430 a higher quality vehicle compared to the GS430? If so, are we talking a little or a lot? Are they comparable in reliability?
<< Higher quality definitely, hands down. I think it's higher quality than a BMW actually. >>
1. Other than the 6-speed transmission, are there any significant improvements in the 04-06 cars versus the 01-03? I know there were some slight cosmetic changes, but mechanically it appears to primarily be the transmission. Is the 6-speed a lot better?
<< mechanically, just the transmission, but electronically you get the backup camera and bluetooth too, with NAV models. >>
2. Are the later years (04-06) more reliable?
<< if you consider the early year '04 recalls for the transmission, you can argue that the '04-'06 were actually less reliable. >>
3. How much better handling is the "Euro tuned sport" suspension versus the standard one?
<< only test drove one with the Sport Suspension and from the 4 miles I may have driven it, I really couldn't tell all that much difference. Air on the other hand, I did feel a pretty good amount of stiffness to the ride, but could have been from the 18" wheels too that were on there. >>
4. Does the optional Adaptive air suspension handle worse than the standard suspension?
<< Worse? It handles better. If by worse you mean harder to fix and more expensive, then see #7 below >>
5. Is the Mark Levinson audio system significantly better than the standard system? I definitely consider myself an audiophile and want to know if my search needs to include the ML upgrade.
<< I have it, not all that impressed with it's lack of bass. I feel my old RX and MDX radios have better quality for my ears, but that's just me. >>
6. Is the Ultra Luxury option considered a plus and if so, who much of a premium does it demand on used cars? I like the extra luxury options including the extras for the rear passengers, but realistically, my kids will never appreciate them. Also, I think the air suspension is probably a detriment on handling performance and cost of repair. Is this true?
<< the cost of possible repair to the air suspension trumped the extra goodies in back. Also, with three kids for me, the rear seat options are gone and just extra for them to break. If "I" can't enjoy it, then why am I getting it? >>
7. What is the cost to repair the air suspension shocks and how likely are they to fail on higher mileage cars? Do failures occur less on the newer models?
<< they seem to fail anywhere between 75K on the few-far-apart low side, and some have gone 150K without reported failure, so not sure what average is. If you do hit your magic number, they're about $1500 each to replace. >>
8. Is the LS430 a DIY in regards to maintenance and general repairs? I would prefer to avoid the dealer as much as possible.
<< '04 has sealed transmission, so fluid technically never needs replacing. Oil is easiest of any car I've ever owned. The plugs should be easy as well. Air filters are all easy and within reach. Basic maintenance I think are easy on this car. >>
9. What are mechanical items that typically fail on these cars and the cost to replace?
<< besides the air, nothing really has been a nagging issue on the LS. It's got a lot of electronics, so you might get a "lemon" and minor electrical things pop up. >>
10. How much can i expect to pay in annual service and repairs?
<< I've owned mine since 2008 and I'm putting about 12,000 miles/year on her, and at $30/oil change (DIY with Mobil1) I'm spending about $90 in oil changes, another $15 in air filters, averaging out my tire expense, $100 in tire life/year, so $220 let's say. >>
11. Is the LS430 a higher quality vehicle compared to the GS430? If so, are we talking a little or a lot? Are they comparable in reliability?
<< Higher quality definitely, hands down. I think it's higher quality than a BMW actually. >>
10-02-11, 07:30 PM
#10
Moderator
I am pretty sure there isn't any other modern day car (built in a production volume factory) that is higher in quality than the LS430. I have had mine, an 06 LS, for just over 24 months and it seems pretty bullet proof. Starts, runs, and drives like it was brand new- no squeaks, rattles, looseness, vibration, nothing. All systems in the car work flawlessly and with absolutely no hassle. Having said all that, I do hate the inbuilt cassette player with a vengeance. Might as well have an 8 track hanging off the heater vents.
AS a comparison, I rent cars about once a month on business and I am usually amazed at the crappy quality, squeaks, rattles, vibration etc in relatively new cars - and granted they are not BMWs but generally I end up with various almost brand new full size and premium rentals.
Warminwisc said it very well - if I had unlimited $$ I'd also likely get one (or maybe two) M5 or a Porshe Panamerica ..forget the BMW. But having a reasonable budget for my cars, means I drive an LS and love it.
AS a comparison, I rent cars about once a month on business and I am usually amazed at the crappy quality, squeaks, rattles, vibration etc in relatively new cars - and granted they are not BMWs but generally I end up with various almost brand new full size and premium rentals.
Warminwisc said it very well - if I had unlimited $$ I'd also likely get one (or maybe two) M5 or a Porshe Panamerica ..forget the BMW. But having a reasonable budget for my cars, means I drive an LS and love it.
Last edited by Jabberwock; 10-02-11 at 07:36 PM.
10-03-11, 08:57 AM
#11
Lexus Champion
I have an 04 UL with 75,000 miles, and every time I get into the car I feel like I am getting into a new car. I think that says everything about the quality and reliability of this car.
10-04-11, 04:26 PM
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just got my 04 LS last week.......driving 70 miles in a 2 seater got tiring so I finally wised up and went with the LS. Searching for another weekend car as we speak.
its great in all aspects and it will definitely serve the purpose you are looking for. And compared to an s550 or 750i, this car will last waaaaaaay longer.
the bigger question though is what do you drive as your sports car?
its great in all aspects and it will definitely serve the purpose you are looking for. And compared to an s550 or 750i, this car will last waaaaaaay longer.
the bigger question though is what do you drive as your sports car?
10-04-11, 06:27 PM
#14
Lexus Test Driver
YES!! This! I had an E34 for a year (learned stick on it) and absolutely loved the car. Granted, I only had the 530 so I can only imagine how good the M5 is. That E34 had that X factor...so much character, and very well built too (proper old school German engineering). I would say I liked it just as much as my LS!
10-04-11, 09:36 PM
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I kinda figured that.
Thanks for addressing all my questions individually. 
It sounds like the LS430 is built like a tank and that's what I am looking for. I am surprised it still has a cassette player. My e39 M5 had one as well. 
My current daily driver is a Nissan GTR
I thought this could be a comparison thread... I was about to say, comparing the two is like comparing Luke's Landspeeder to the Millenium Falcon, it's two different vehicles. The LS430 is nowhere close in "performance" I feel than the M5 and I'm only really comparing to the 550i which I've driven and not an M5 which should be superior to even the 550i. If you then reverse and consider reliability and comfort, then the M5 is really like the Millenium Falcon, just an old piece of junk.
I am pretty sure there isn't any other modern day car (built in a production volume factory) that is higher in quality than the LS430. I have had mine, an 06 LS, for just over 24 months and it seems pretty bullet proof. Starts, runs, and drives like it was brand new- no squeaks, rattles, looseness, vibration, nothing. All systems in the car work flawlessly and with absolutely no hassle. Having said all that, I do hate the inbuilt cassette player with a vengeance. Might as well have an 8 track hanging off the heater vents.
AS a comparison, I rent cars about once a month on business and I am usually amazed at the crappy quality, squeaks, rattles, vibration etc in relatively new cars - and granted they are not BMWs but generally I end up with various almost brand new full size and premium rentals.
Warminwisc said it very well - if I had unlimited $$ I'd also likely get one (or maybe two) M5 or a Porshe Panamerica ..forget the BMW. But having a reasonable budget for my cars, means I drive an LS and love it.
AS a comparison, I rent cars about once a month on business and I am usually amazed at the crappy quality, squeaks, rattles, vibration etc in relatively new cars - and granted they are not BMWs but generally I end up with various almost brand new full size and premium rentals.
Warminwisc said it very well - if I had unlimited $$ I'd also likely get one (or maybe two) M5 or a Porshe Panamerica ..forget the BMW. But having a reasonable budget for my cars, means I drive an LS and love it.
My current daily driver is a Nissan GTR