mewhee

Hi All -

Have just had my first semi major problem w/ my '02 CL 42k miles LS430 purchased last May so am seeking some of your input. For the last week or so, my car's been virtually dead every other morning. It gives the proverbial one or two chug tries and then the dreaded clicks. After the second jumpstart, I took it to the dealer to have the (Lexus brand dated '08) battery tested and it came up fine. They said they'd change it but couldn't guarantee that was the problem and didn't do any other deeper troubleshooting after nothing obvious showed up.

It was ok for a couple of days after the test but has since gone dead twice.
I only drive an average of 10 or so miles a day but still it's pretty much run EVERY day. Oh, I'm also pretty careful about making sure all the electronics are turned off prior to shutting down.

Any thoughts Thx in advance -

CarGuy89

I was going to suggest altenator, but it seems like your battery tests to be good. I would probably assume that it has something to do with your starting mechanism after that point (bad starter motor, or electrics that control the starter, maybe a fuse...?). Has anything started working poorly/failed since this happened? Wish I could help more but I'm not really sure, just throwing ideas out there. Hope you get it fixed soon.

caddyowner

Did the dealership test how much resting current draw the car had? Is it possible that a map light is left on? Is the trunk light going off when closed?

mewhee

Thx for the thoughts, CarGuy -

No, nothing w/ the electronics or anything mechanically seems out of sorts. Once started (btw, my handy little portable jumpstarter/compressor is getting a work out) everything works great as usual and it will re-start w/ no problem once driven for a couple of miles. I'm tempted to try another battery just to see if that's the problem. I'm not surprised it tested fine at the dealer as it's a twenty minute ride away so it had just been 'semi' charged. Then again, even w/ a quickie charge I think their diagnostic equipment can tell if it's going to hold a charge but I'm far from being a mechanic so don't know for sure.

They can't even replace it under the pro-rated battery warranty since they have to include the test results to get reimbursed from Lexus corporate ...

mewhee

Nope - Checked all those items Caddy and no lights left on. I learned the hard way w/ the trunk when I first purchased it as I accidentally pulled the trunk release and didn't re-shut it so that drained it overnight.

As to the dealership checking the draw I didn't ask but will call in the morning to find out. Thx -

JimsGX

Mewhee,

I agree with you on the battery replacement... If you pay to replace it and it resolves the problem, is the dealer then willing to submit it for the warranty?

Jabberwock

Did you make any changes to the car before this started happening? Any maintenance , changes to stereo, lights, etc?

Seems like its likely to be one of two things - a bad battery that loses charge overnight or some mechanical problem in the car that creates a vampire current draw that kills the battery overnight.

Its a PITA but you could try disconnecting the battery overnight and reconnecting in the am - if it starts np then it points to a vampire current draw.

If there have been no changes that might have been root cause of a current draw , I'd probably start by replacing the battery. If it continues to happen after you get a new battery, at least you will have eliminated probably the least expense to fix item (and you will have a brand new battery). btw if Lexus wants big $ for thier battery, you can get a CR excellent rated replacement battery (24F group) at Wal-mart for about $75.

mewhee

Don't know for sure, Jim, but even if they do, the most I'll get back is $50 or $60 pro rated value. More of a concern is the reliability factor. Can see the neighborhood Prius, Beemer, Benz, Tesla and Honda owners snickering as they drive by in the morning three weeks ago seeing my better halfs ML'06 battery being jumped and now mine. Some status symbol, eh?

StanVanDam

The dealer should have tested your battery, starter, and alternator using a Sun VAT-40, VAT-60, or equivalent. Battery must be 75% charged or higher for the heavy load test to be performed properly. High current draw and low cranking speed = faulty starter. Low current draw with low cranking speed with high cranking voltage = excessive resistance in the starter circuit.

If the alternator without load measures below 13.2V or above 14.8V, or above 10A, you have a problem. If the alternator with load (headlamps+max heat) measures under 30A, it is not charging your battery properly and likely needs replacement.

Do a voltage drop test using a digital multimeter to isolate high resistance in the charging system.

To test + side of battery, connect DMM red to terminal B of alternator, DMM black to positive battery terminal. At 2000rpm, voltage should be < 0.2V.

To test - side of battery, keep engine at 2000rpm and connect DMM red to negative battery post, DMM black to alternator frame, voltage should be < 0.2V. If higher, check for poor connections and for damaged wires.

They probably only did a quick battery test using a handheld Midtronics 500 series tester or a Micropro 815 battery analyzer, which works on discharged batteries and can be used as soon as the vehicle arrives for service.

If the battery requires charging, is < 75% charged, or requires a more thorough diagnostic, the dealership should use a Midtronics GR8 Battery Diagnostic Station or equivalent. This unit will also tell you "good battery", "replace battery", or "bad cell-replace".

If you find the car goes dead after X days of not driving, the problem is likely a weak battery or excessive parasitic drain. Let the dealership keep it for X days without starting it and tell them to do a more thorough diagnostic after the time is up.

If you want to check parasitic drain yourself, connect an ammeter in series between the battery negative terminal and the ground connector. Make sure you wait a few minutes after turning the car off or closing a door.

Toyota vehicles typically draw between 20 and 75 milliamps when not running. Any reading higher than 100mA indicates a problem. If this is the case, find every fusebox in the car and pull each fuse one at a time until you find the fuse that is causing excessive drain. The 2002 owner's manual lists them all - driver kick panel has 18 fuses, passenger has 20, trunk has 12, and 3 separate boxes in the engine bay totalling 32 fuses, grand total of 85 fuses.

Once you find that fuse, look up the technical docs to see which components belonging to that fuse could cause the problem.

The thread https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...-problems.html has some helpful tips as well.

If the car not starting is not dependent on the time elapsed since last start, then when your car fails to start, what voltage does your battery measure and do all your other electronics work, ie. lights, radio, nav screen, speakers, blower? If the battery seems to have enough power to run everything outside of the starting system, it's possible your crankshaft position sensor is defective. OEM part # is 90919-A5001, approx. cost 107.72.

Another possibility is that your starter is dying. Yet another possibility is your fuel pump relay or fuel pump, but typically in this case the starter would still engage and not do the low-battery clicking sounds.

Jabberwock

Stan - wow - thanks for the excellent post on detailed battery trouble shooting info.

caddyowner

85 fuses??!!!!

miniz

Why exactly didn't the dealer keep the car overnight to see the problem first hand? They just gave it back and stated that they couldn't do anything? Sounds like its time to find someone who actually cares about fixing the problem. They clearly do not care.

mewhee

Damn, StanVanDam- You're one knowledgeable Lexus guy and wish you were my neighbor. As w/ all your other posts, I think I can safely say it's much appreciated by the gang here in the forum

Frankly, I don't have the equipment required to troubleshoot as you directed and think my next step is to bite the bullet and take it back to my dealer here in So, Orange County, Ca. Miniz, in fairness to them, after testing the battery (and even washing my car) they asked if I wanted any further troubleshooting but said I'd try a couple more days and see if the problem was still there and it was. Btw, they didn't charge me anything for the testing and wash.

Think my next step, Stan, is to print out your suggestions and give it to the service head at Lexus. Thanks again for your thoughts -

DDLexus

mewhee, i not sure a tech will appreciate the printout. How would you feel if you got ASE certified and somebody on the street came in and told you how to do your job. Nobody likes to be told how to do their job. Sometimes it can backfire on you. Next thing you know, they tell you that your tranny is going to need to be replaced.

Just trying to give you friendly perspective. Some people can handle "suggestions" from customers. Others, they're just too proud to listen (talking about service tech's of course).

mewhee

Agree DD, as no one really likes to be told how to do their job by an outsider but in this case, keep in mind I'm talking to the service mgr. and not the actual tech working on the car. He and I have talked more than once about this Lexus forum and he readily admitted to finding it helpful to even a seasoned service mgr./tech guy like himself but made sure to point out that there's also some crapola thrown around on occasion.

Frankly, it'd also serve as somewhat of a crib sheet to yours truly as there's no way I could recall all of Stan's well thought out suggestions.