Left rear negative camber WTF?
04-11-08, 08:05 AM
#16
Moderator
Your car should auto level while you are driving. The stance while park maybe different then when its moving. You should have someone drive a chase car with you on the freeway to see if all is even or if only one side is cambering in.
04-11-08, 08:50 AM
#17
Instructor
Thread Starter
I can tell the left rear is cambered in....it just so happens that that is the side which was lowered to compensate for the factory stance where the right rear was sitting low. The right rear was raised but its camber does not looks good. Definitely hasn't turned positive since its wearing the tires on the inside edge but not nearly as bad as the left is.
I just played around with moving the air suspension ride height sensor arm up and down and didnt see a noticable change in camber on the tire as the suspension raised and lowered that side of the vehicle. Still stumped as to why this tire sits so far in the negative.
I'm gonna look into the toe on that wheel.
I just played around with moving the air suspension ride height sensor arm up and down and didnt see a noticable change in camber on the tire as the suspension raised and lowered that side of the vehicle. Still stumped as to why this tire sits so far in the negative.
I'm gonna look into the toe on that wheel.
04-13-08, 07:00 AM
#21
Greetings - when I bought my 04 LS 430 used, it had oddly similar wear problems. I'm following this thread with great interest, as I have extended warranty on it until next year, and all suspension parts are covered under that. I had the alignment checked when I bought it, and it passed, but it's the tire wear that has me thinking now.
Last edited by spender; 04-13-08 at 07:07 AM.
04-13-08, 08:04 AM
#22
Lexus Test Driver
I notice in the pic the left rear height sensor is adjusted all the way down. They usually arent this low from the factory, which leads me to believe the height has been adjusted. Are you absolutely sure the suspension is leveled out? It needs to be adjusted on a perfectly flat surface. Even if you think your concrete garage floor is level, you need to try different surfaces and repeatedly check it to confirm. This may or may not be the source of the problem, I'm not sure.
04-13-08, 08:11 AM
#23
Instructor
Thread Starter
I notice in the pic the left rear height sensor is adjusted all the way down. They usually arent this low from the factory, which leads me to believe the height has been adjusted. Are you absolutely sure the suspension is leveled out? It needs to be adjusted on a perfectly flat surface. Even if you think your concrete garage floor is level, you need to try different surfaces and repeatedly check it to confirm. This may or may not be the source of the problem, I'm not sure.
04-13-08, 08:22 AM
#24
Instructor
Thread Starter
I pulled the wheel off, marked the toe and adjusted it a little to the positive. (a negative toe will cause negative camber) After looking at the three sheets where the tire shop aligned the vehicle, I'm convinced they have the toe too far in the negative. Visually, the tire looks right now so we'll see how it rolls. I also replaced the tire with the spare in the meantime.
02-22-11, 04:47 AM
#26
Moderator
I had to replace my rt rear back in 09 due to inside tire wear, info below is where i bought it from as well.
Rr lateral arm, Length = 441.5 mm Left
REAR SUSPENSION »Suspension components
Lexus › LS430 › 2004-2006
List Price : $167.58
Your Price : $130.71
Quantity:
Rr lateral arm, Length = 441.5 mm Right
REAR SUSPENSION »Suspension components
Lexus › LS430 › 2004-2006
List Price : $167.58
Your Price : $130.71
Catalog Note: LH or Left = Driver Side; RH or Right = Passenger Side
http://www.oemlexusparts.com/
To find it quickly enter in your car info, then put Length = 441.5 mm in the KEYWORD SEARCH box.
Rr lateral arm, Length = 441.5 mm Left
REAR SUSPENSION »Suspension components
Lexus › LS430 › 2004-2006
List Price : $167.58
Your Price : $130.71
Quantity:
Rr lateral arm, Length = 441.5 mm Right
REAR SUSPENSION »Suspension components
Lexus › LS430 › 2004-2006
List Price : $167.58
Your Price : $130.71
Catalog Note: LH or Left = Driver Side; RH or Right = Passenger Side
http://www.oemlexusparts.com/
To find it quickly enter in your car info, then put Length = 441.5 mm in the KEYWORD SEARCH box.
04-02-13, 06:45 PM
#29
Rookie
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Minnesota
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Guys -
Add me to the list of those who have experienced negative rear camber / excessive tire wear issues. MY negative rear camber problem has steadily gotten worse over time, and is now destroying tires... I think.
The rear control arm has no adjustmnet, so it's hard to imagine how it can move, so as to keep getting worse. Metal doesn't just change shape under normal conditions, and the arm is NOT bent. From what I've read in the threads on this topic, people just discover that it's out of spec one day during an alignment, but I haven't seen any discussion on whether they've seen it steadily worsen over time (and what may be causing it, if the control arm has no "adjustment" to slowly drift out of alignment by itself over time)...
I have an '05 LS with the Modern Lux. pkg. So, no air or sport suspension on my car, even though it came with the optional 18" factory alloys. The ride height and all suspension components are 100% stock. I run the recommended size 245/45 R18 tires on the factory 18's. I bought my car Certified Pre-Owned about 2.5 yrs. ago with about 60k on the odometer. The dealer needed to replace the tires in order to certify the car, so it came with a brand new set of the OE tires on it: the DunFLOP Sport SP5000's.
I bought a lifetime alignment from my local tire shop within a few weeks of getting my LS, as I did with my previous car (a CPO '02 GS 430). For the last 7.5 years, I had the following maintenance routine done on my Lexus by the guys at the tire shop: every 5k, I had the oil changed, tires rotated & balanced, had the alignment checked (and corrected if necessary). Major (30k, 60k, 90k) service and any warranty work was done at the dealership. This routine served me well in my GS - I got almost 40k miles out of the rubber on that car (with some ultra-high performance summer tires on it, which were only expected to last about 25k or so). Naturally, I expected that I'd see at least the same or even better wear on the LS's more tame touring tires. Nope!
The DunFLOPs only have a tread rating of 340 which isn't exactly great, but I was SHOCKED when I brought my LS in to the tire shop for my regular 5k oil change, rotation, balance and align routine last fall and the tires were COOKED after only about 20k of very gentle (mostly highway) driving. The wear was in one particular spot - the inside edges of the contact patch - and worse on the tires at the rear of the car, when the problem was discovered. The tire shop guys said that legally, they couldn't allow me to drive it home on those tires - it was THAT bad!! Fortunately, it was fall when this happened, so I opted to just put my snow tires on a couple of weeks early and deal with getting new tires after winter was over.
When I got my first alignment on the LS about 2 years ago, the tire shop guys said that the left rear camber was ever so slightly out of spec. (-1.8) and that there was no way to adjust it. They suggested replacing the left rear control arm if the problem worsened.
I promptly took my car to the Lexus dealership. Initially, they said that the CPO warranty would cover replacement of the control arm, since it was out of spec. Then they changed their minds, and said that everything checked out okay. They went on to say that it is "normal" for the suspension to settle a bit as the car ages. They assured me that the rear suspension was fine and that this slight variance in rear camber wasn't enough of an issue to have any significant impact on tire life. So, I never gave the matter much thought after that...
Last fall, I chalked the shredded DunFLOPs up to just being crappy OE rubber that never seems to last; I didn't correlate it with the negative rear camber issue from 2 years prior. Since they first brought it up 2 years ago, nobody at the tire shop had ever mentioned rear control arms or negative camber problems again.
Now that it's spring, I had to get new tires, and just had them installed today. I opted for the Primacy MXV4's based on how much other CL members liked them on their LS's. The tire shop did an alignment as part of the instsall today and for the first time in 2 years, they mentioned the negative rear camber problem again. They said that the issue IS NOW MUCH WORSE, and they recommend that I replace BOTH rear control arms. (The left rear is at -2.5 now and the right rear has gone from -1.6 two years ago to -1.9 now).
Frankly, I'm a little ticked off at the tire shop guys for not calling this ever-worsening issue to my attention over any of the half-dozen or so alignment checks / corrections that they did on my car over these past 2 years. They've always been good about catching things that needed attention and telling me about them - they caught a leaky strut and a loose ball joint on my old GS, both of which were covered by the CPO warranty.
BUT, shame on ME for not watching the negative rear camber issue more closely after they pointed it out on that first alignment 2 years ago. They fold up the paperwork, stuff it into an envelope, and send me home after each 5k "pit stop." Unless the tire shop guys say that they saw a problem on my car, I throw the papers into a file folder when I get home, and I don't look at them again. BIG mistake. Lesson learned...
When I got home from the tire shop today, I grabbed that file folder and pulled out the stack of printouts from previous alignments. As I compared them, I could indeed see that the negative rear camber issue had gotten a bit worse with each alignment over the last 2 years. In hindsight, I'm now pretty sure that this had something to do with the untimely demise of the DunFLOP's.
Those Primacy's were PLENTY pricey. I still have some CPO coverage on my LS, and tomorrow I'm going back to the dealership, documents in hand, and I will show them how the problem has steadily gotten worse over time. If the last 2 years are any indicator, the problem will only get worse over time, and I don't want to ruin these new tires.
Have people seen this issue, where the negative rear camber just keeps getting worse over time? If there is no adjustment for the rear control arm to move, what might be causing this number to steadily creep upward? (Other suspension problems)??
Have any of you had Lexus replace the rear control arm(s) under your CPO warranty? If so, how far out of spec were they when Lexus finally decided to cover the repair?
I'd really like to hit them with as much evidence as possible that this is not "normal" and get it fixed under the warranty. Thanks in advance for any thoughts or guidance!
-Nick
Add me to the list of those who have experienced negative rear camber / excessive tire wear issues. MY negative rear camber problem has steadily gotten worse over time, and is now destroying tires... I think.
The rear control arm has no adjustmnet, so it's hard to imagine how it can move, so as to keep getting worse. Metal doesn't just change shape under normal conditions, and the arm is NOT bent. From what I've read in the threads on this topic, people just discover that it's out of spec one day during an alignment, but I haven't seen any discussion on whether they've seen it steadily worsen over time (and what may be causing it, if the control arm has no "adjustment" to slowly drift out of alignment by itself over time)...
I have an '05 LS with the Modern Lux. pkg. So, no air or sport suspension on my car, even though it came with the optional 18" factory alloys. The ride height and all suspension components are 100% stock. I run the recommended size 245/45 R18 tires on the factory 18's. I bought my car Certified Pre-Owned about 2.5 yrs. ago with about 60k on the odometer. The dealer needed to replace the tires in order to certify the car, so it came with a brand new set of the OE tires on it: the DunFLOP Sport SP5000's.
I bought a lifetime alignment from my local tire shop within a few weeks of getting my LS, as I did with my previous car (a CPO '02 GS 430). For the last 7.5 years, I had the following maintenance routine done on my Lexus by the guys at the tire shop: every 5k, I had the oil changed, tires rotated & balanced, had the alignment checked (and corrected if necessary). Major (30k, 60k, 90k) service and any warranty work was done at the dealership. This routine served me well in my GS - I got almost 40k miles out of the rubber on that car (with some ultra-high performance summer tires on it, which were only expected to last about 25k or so). Naturally, I expected that I'd see at least the same or even better wear on the LS's more tame touring tires. Nope!
The DunFLOPs only have a tread rating of 340 which isn't exactly great, but I was SHOCKED when I brought my LS in to the tire shop for my regular 5k oil change, rotation, balance and align routine last fall and the tires were COOKED after only about 20k of very gentle (mostly highway) driving. The wear was in one particular spot - the inside edges of the contact patch - and worse on the tires at the rear of the car, when the problem was discovered. The tire shop guys said that legally, they couldn't allow me to drive it home on those tires - it was THAT bad!! Fortunately, it was fall when this happened, so I opted to just put my snow tires on a couple of weeks early and deal with getting new tires after winter was over.
When I got my first alignment on the LS about 2 years ago, the tire shop guys said that the left rear camber was ever so slightly out of spec. (-1.8) and that there was no way to adjust it. They suggested replacing the left rear control arm if the problem worsened.
I promptly took my car to the Lexus dealership. Initially, they said that the CPO warranty would cover replacement of the control arm, since it was out of spec. Then they changed their minds, and said that everything checked out okay. They went on to say that it is "normal" for the suspension to settle a bit as the car ages. They assured me that the rear suspension was fine and that this slight variance in rear camber wasn't enough of an issue to have any significant impact on tire life. So, I never gave the matter much thought after that...
Last fall, I chalked the shredded DunFLOPs up to just being crappy OE rubber that never seems to last; I didn't correlate it with the negative rear camber issue from 2 years prior. Since they first brought it up 2 years ago, nobody at the tire shop had ever mentioned rear control arms or negative camber problems again.
Now that it's spring, I had to get new tires, and just had them installed today. I opted for the Primacy MXV4's based on how much other CL members liked them on their LS's. The tire shop did an alignment as part of the instsall today and for the first time in 2 years, they mentioned the negative rear camber problem again. They said that the issue IS NOW MUCH WORSE, and they recommend that I replace BOTH rear control arms. (The left rear is at -2.5 now and the right rear has gone from -1.6 two years ago to -1.9 now).
Frankly, I'm a little ticked off at the tire shop guys for not calling this ever-worsening issue to my attention over any of the half-dozen or so alignment checks / corrections that they did on my car over these past 2 years. They've always been good about catching things that needed attention and telling me about them - they caught a leaky strut and a loose ball joint on my old GS, both of which were covered by the CPO warranty.
BUT, shame on ME for not watching the negative rear camber issue more closely after they pointed it out on that first alignment 2 years ago. They fold up the paperwork, stuff it into an envelope, and send me home after each 5k "pit stop." Unless the tire shop guys say that they saw a problem on my car, I throw the papers into a file folder when I get home, and I don't look at them again. BIG mistake. Lesson learned...
When I got home from the tire shop today, I grabbed that file folder and pulled out the stack of printouts from previous alignments. As I compared them, I could indeed see that the negative rear camber issue had gotten a bit worse with each alignment over the last 2 years. In hindsight, I'm now pretty sure that this had something to do with the untimely demise of the DunFLOP's.
Those Primacy's were PLENTY pricey. I still have some CPO coverage on my LS, and tomorrow I'm going back to the dealership, documents in hand, and I will show them how the problem has steadily gotten worse over time. If the last 2 years are any indicator, the problem will only get worse over time, and I don't want to ruin these new tires.
Have people seen this issue, where the negative rear camber just keeps getting worse over time? If there is no adjustment for the rear control arm to move, what might be causing this number to steadily creep upward? (Other suspension problems)??
Have any of you had Lexus replace the rear control arm(s) under your CPO warranty? If so, how far out of spec were they when Lexus finally decided to cover the repair?
I'd really like to hit them with as much evidence as possible that this is not "normal" and get it fixed under the warranty. Thanks in advance for any thoughts or guidance!
-Nick
04-02-13, 09:35 PM
#30
Lexus Test Driver
I think it can be assumed that over time there can be a change in camber due to the rubber bushings in the ends of the camber rods wearing out. If these bushings begin to crush then the overall length can easily change by a few millimeters, maybe more. Combine that with wear in the toe rod bushings and others in the suspension and it's entirely plausible that after 75k miles or so the suspension geometry can be completely out of whack.