Annoying Clunk Sound- Strut Bar (The Mother thread)
03-24-09, 12:34 PM
#121
Lexus Champion
Strut Rod Bushings vs new rods 1995 - 2000
With my 99 getting "loose" up front it is time to replace the "famous" strut rod bushings.
2 options include replacing the entire rod which includes the factory "rubber" bushing...
or
buy bushings and install them in the rods.
Bushings are available from $100 for the pair
Entire rods run $250 for the pair.
So, on the surface it would look like an easy $150 no brainer...
Of course nothing is so simple.
Unlike the 1st gen 1990 - 1994 cars which had replaceable donuts the 1995 - 2000 have pressed in bushings like the rest of the system. To remove these requires a bunch of work and or a big hydraulic press.
Next is the materials; aftermarket bushings are polyurethane which is very stiff. Factory is more pliable rubber. Again, it "seems" like a good idea BUT they will make the suspension harsher. Stock parts worked very well (as engineered) and last 100k + miles. $150 over that mileage is insignificant. Also, when you make one joint more ridgid you place more strain on the other joints.
At this point I am probably going with the factory replacement rods/bushings. Would like to hear from others experience and opinions.
Side note: I replaced the lower ball joints 15k or so ago. Easy to do, definitely a good plan. Lower joints are the stressed joints and wear out much quicker than upper. Ball joint failure is catastrophic and worn joints create noise, loose suspension and detract from the cars beautiful feel.
Upper ball joints are included in the factory upper control arm assembly which will likely need bushings (now or soon) sooner than the joint wears out. Again, same dilemna, poly or factory.
2 options include replacing the entire rod which includes the factory "rubber" bushing...
or
buy bushings and install them in the rods.
Bushings are available from $100 for the pair
Entire rods run $250 for the pair.
So, on the surface it would look like an easy $150 no brainer...
Of course nothing is so simple.
Unlike the 1st gen 1990 - 1994 cars which had replaceable donuts the 1995 - 2000 have pressed in bushings like the rest of the system. To remove these requires a bunch of work and or a big hydraulic press.
Next is the materials; aftermarket bushings are polyurethane which is very stiff. Factory is more pliable rubber. Again, it "seems" like a good idea BUT they will make the suspension harsher. Stock parts worked very well (as engineered) and last 100k + miles. $150 over that mileage is insignificant. Also, when you make one joint more ridgid you place more strain on the other joints.
At this point I am probably going with the factory replacement rods/bushings. Would like to hear from others experience and opinions.
Side note: I replaced the lower ball joints 15k or so ago. Easy to do, definitely a good plan. Lower joints are the stressed joints and wear out much quicker than upper. Ball joint failure is catastrophic and worn joints create noise, loose suspension and detract from the cars beautiful feel.
Upper ball joints are included in the factory upper control arm assembly which will likely need bushings (now or soon) sooner than the joint wears out. Again, same dilemna, poly or factory.
03-24-09, 01:15 PM
#123
minor price correction, you can get both front strut rod bushings (ADUS, polyurethane) for ~$35/each from carson, a factory rubber bushing is available, but the cost is nearly that of the whole bar, so it isnt really worth it.
now, for $35/each, (assuming you are doing it yourself) any shop with a press, i use Napa auto parts, will charge you less than $10/bushing to press out the old ones and press in the new, includiing the minor prep for the new bushings.
so total cost for diy front bushings= <$100
total cost for replacing bar (diy) = ~$250
now, if you must have the OEM soft ride quality, don't buy poly. for our '00 LS we spent up and got OEM replacement bars, rubber and all. whereas for my '99 LS, i want it a little stiffer and have adus bushings sitting in my garage.
now, for $35/each, (assuming you are doing it yourself) any shop with a press, i use Napa auto parts, will charge you less than $10/bushing to press out the old ones and press in the new, includiing the minor prep for the new bushings.
so total cost for diy front bushings= <$100
total cost for replacing bar (diy) = ~$250
now, if you must have the OEM soft ride quality, don't buy poly. for our '00 LS we spent up and got OEM replacement bars, rubber and all. whereas for my '99 LS, i want it a little stiffer and have adus bushings sitting in my garage.
03-24-09, 03:28 PM
#124
Lexus Champion
minor price correction, you can get both front strut rod bushings (ADUS, polyurethane) for ~$35/each from carson, a factory rubber bushing is available, but the cost is nearly that of the whole bar, so it isnt really worth it.
now, for $35/each, (assuming you are doing it yourself) any shop with a press, i use Napa auto parts, will charge you less than $10/bushing to press out the old ones and press in the new, includiing the minor prep for the new bushings.
so total cost for diy front bushings= <$100
total cost for replacing bar (diy) = ~$250
now, if you must have the OEM soft ride quality, don't buy poly. for our '00 LS we spent up and got OEM replacement bars, rubber and all. whereas for my '99 LS, i want it a little stiffer and have adus bushings sitting in my garage.
now, for $35/each, (assuming you are doing it yourself) any shop with a press, i use Napa auto parts, will charge you less than $10/bushing to press out the old ones and press in the new, includiing the minor prep for the new bushings.
so total cost for diy front bushings= <$100
total cost for replacing bar (diy) = ~$250
now, if you must have the OEM soft ride quality, don't buy poly. for our '00 LS we spent up and got OEM replacement bars, rubber and all. whereas for my '99 LS, i want it a little stiffer and have adus bushings sitting in my garage.
That said went to Carson/L-tuned and they list them at $48 which is the least I found in basic searching. Most want $60-75.
Time to find/call/transport/wait/pay shop for press work is another factor.
Your point and my point on OEM ride quality also dictates stock parts.
My point that the other softer rubber parts will wear quicker when using poly is worth another note.
Your impressions when you do your poly on the 99 will be good as well.
OEM it is.
03-24-09, 04:46 PM
#126
Pole Position
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: QLD
Posts: 275
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You all seem to be missing the fact that on the upper control arms the factory bush is actually a Heime bush not a push in and this was the same on the 1st gen as well.
ANY type of push in bush will be way lacking in feel and it's ability to move freely up and down compared to a Heime type bush,these have a bearing surrounded by a rubber insulating/isolator ring to the outer steel sleeve of the bush,so when the arm is going up and down it's actually rolling,where as a push in type bush is quite binding in comparison.
This is the reason they last so long without wearing and don't need lubricating to stop squeaking.
I've been running the Arnotts complete replacement arms with new ball joint for about a year now and have found them brilliant and quite inexpensive,the fact that you get a new ball joint and it's a direct swap over makes it hard to beat.
Boompa has had the Arnotts arms in for nearly two years now and has had no probs.
I would be checking them out if I was up for upper control arm bushes
ANY type of push in bush will be way lacking in feel and it's ability to move freely up and down compared to a Heime type bush,these have a bearing surrounded by a rubber insulating/isolator ring to the outer steel sleeve of the bush,so when the arm is going up and down it's actually rolling,where as a push in type bush is quite binding in comparison.
This is the reason they last so long without wearing and don't need lubricating to stop squeaking.
I've been running the Arnotts complete replacement arms with new ball joint for about a year now and have found them brilliant and quite inexpensive,the fact that you get a new ball joint and it's a direct swap over makes it hard to beat.
Boompa has had the Arnotts arms in for nearly two years now and has had no probs.
I would be checking them out if I was up for upper control arm bushes
03-25-09, 09:40 AM
#127
Lexus Champion
You all seem to be missing the fact that on the upper control arms the factory bush is actually a Heime bush not a push in and this was the same on the 1st gen as well.
ANY type of push in bush will be way lacking in feel and it's ability to move freely up and down compared to a Heime type bush,these have a bearing surrounded by a rubber insulating/isolator ring to the outer steel sleeve of the bush,so when the arm is going up and down it's actually rolling,where as a push in type bush is quite binding in comparison.
This is the reason they last so long without wearing and don't need lubricating to stop squeaking.
I've been running the Arnotts complete replacement arms with new ball joint for about a year now and have found them brilliant and quite inexpensive,the fact that you get a new ball joint and it's a direct swap over makes it hard to beat.
Boompa has had the Arnotts arms in for nearly two years now and has had no probs.
I would be checking them out if I was up for upper control arm bushes
ANY type of push in bush will be way lacking in feel and it's ability to move freely up and down compared to a Heime type bush,these have a bearing surrounded by a rubber insulating/isolator ring to the outer steel sleeve of the bush,so when the arm is going up and down it's actually rolling,where as a push in type bush is quite binding in comparison.
This is the reason they last so long without wearing and don't need lubricating to stop squeaking.
I've been running the Arnotts complete replacement arms with new ball joint for about a year now and have found them brilliant and quite inexpensive,the fact that you get a new ball joint and it's a direct swap over makes it hard to beat.
Boompa has had the Arnotts arms in for nearly two years now and has had no probs.
I would be checking them out if I was up for upper control arm bushes
Rich,
Thanks for your input. While this thread has not been about the upper control arms your points regarding such are right on. The Arnott option seems like a definite no brainer and much easier than replacing bushings on stock arms with worn balljoints OR spending the big bucks Lexus asks for replacements. Great find.
http://www.arnottindustries.com/part...47_gid465.html
So, I will do the factory strut rods followed by Arnott's upper arms leaving only the lower arm bushing... guess that will be the same argument.
03-25-09, 12:34 PM
#128
Lexus Champion
Remember my statement that "Of course nothing is so simple"...
Well, upon review of Daizen's site, I found this statement:
"The lower durometer hardness of these bushing sets restores original ride, as they were specifically designed with Lexus owners in mind. A significant upgrade in handling is provided as well. These kits are not like typical aftermarket hard durometer bushing kits, which while improving handling, also noticeably degrade a vehicle's ride quality and comfort level"
What this CLAIM means it that they are using a "softer" polyurethane formulation for the Lexus parts. While harder (significantly) than factory parts they will be softer than other polyurethane parts for cars that do not have soft suspension as a goal.
There are 4 bushings per side in the Lexus front suspension. The strut bar bushing, the lower control arm bushing and two in the upper arm. The upper arm uses the Heim type bushing vs. the flexible but "connected" rubber bushing.
The flexible but "connected" rubber bushing MUST be installed at the actual ride height of the vehicle. IOW, before final tightening of bushing bolts the vehicles weight must be placed on the bushing in a loose condition THEN the bolt is tightened. Otherwise the bushing will ALWAYS be stretched and will shear/break very soon.
Polyurethane will (or are supposed to) last indefinitely. They rotate freely and therefore are not subject to tearing like the factory solid connected rubber bushings. They are less flexible and therefore will create a tighter suspension but will also increase harshness and possibly road noise. As I noted before if you replace one of the 4 bushings with polyurethane the other bushings having more compliance will be worked harder and fail sooner.
I look forward to Pure Drifters results of doing just the strut rod bushing in poly. I am again somewhat undecided if I want to replace all the bushings with poly or do the factory rubber.
Decisions decisions
Well, upon review of Daizen's site, I found this statement:
"The lower durometer hardness of these bushing sets restores original ride, as they were specifically designed with Lexus owners in mind. A significant upgrade in handling is provided as well. These kits are not like typical aftermarket hard durometer bushing kits, which while improving handling, also noticeably degrade a vehicle's ride quality and comfort level"
What this CLAIM means it that they are using a "softer" polyurethane formulation for the Lexus parts. While harder (significantly) than factory parts they will be softer than other polyurethane parts for cars that do not have soft suspension as a goal.
There are 4 bushings per side in the Lexus front suspension. The strut bar bushing, the lower control arm bushing and two in the upper arm. The upper arm uses the Heim type bushing vs. the flexible but "connected" rubber bushing.
The flexible but "connected" rubber bushing MUST be installed at the actual ride height of the vehicle. IOW, before final tightening of bushing bolts the vehicles weight must be placed on the bushing in a loose condition THEN the bolt is tightened. Otherwise the bushing will ALWAYS be stretched and will shear/break very soon.
Polyurethane will (or are supposed to) last indefinitely. They rotate freely and therefore are not subject to tearing like the factory solid connected rubber bushings. They are less flexible and therefore will create a tighter suspension but will also increase harshness and possibly road noise. As I noted before if you replace one of the 4 bushings with polyurethane the other bushings having more compliance will be worked harder and fail sooner.
I look forward to Pure Drifters results of doing just the strut rod bushing in poly. I am again somewhat undecided if I want to replace all the bushings with poly or do the factory rubber.
Decisions decisions
03-25-09, 06:27 PM
#130
I recently replaced my strut rods with brand new strut rods thinking it was the cause of the infamous "clunk." When I pulled the old ones out, they looked as if they were just replaced. I put the new ones in anyways and have a near-new set sitting in the garage.
Therefore, I have a near-new set of strut rods available for cheap if you're interested. PM me.
Therefore, I have a near-new set of strut rods available for cheap if you're interested. PM me.
03-25-09, 10:12 PM
#131
Lexus Champion
I recently replaced my strut rods with brand new strut rods thinking it was the cause of the infamous "clunk." When I pulled the old ones out, they looked as if they were just replaced. I put the new ones in anyways and have a near-new set sitting in the garage.
Therefore, I have a near-new set of strut rods available for cheap if you're interested. PM me.
Therefore, I have a near-new set of strut rods available for cheap if you're interested. PM me.
03-25-09, 10:16 PM
#132
Lexus Champion
Did you note the quote from the Daizen site:
"The lower durometer hardness of these bushing sets restores original ride, as they were specifically designed with Lexus owners in mind. A significant upgrade in handling is provided as well. These kits are not like typical aftermarket hard durometer bushing kits"
The site has no phone number... I emailed some questions with no reply yet...
Does ANYBODY have the LS400 full Daizen poly kit on their car???
03-26-09, 05:24 PM
#134
I recently replaced my strut rods with brand new strut rods thinking it was the cause of the infamous "clunk." When I pulled the old ones out, they looked as if they were just replaced. I put the new ones in anyways and have a near-new set sitting in the garage.
Therefore, I have a near-new set of strut rods available for cheap if you're interested. PM me.
Therefore, I have a near-new set of strut rods available for cheap if you're interested. PM me.
03-26-09, 06:32 PM
#135
Lexus Test Driver
You can get new OEM strut rods at Parts.com for $86.42 each ($125 list)... They have OEM upper control arms for $341.26 each ($493.60 list).
I made the mistake of using aftermarket (Daizen) bushings for the upper and lowers on my car. I won't go with an aftermarket bushing again unless OEM isn't available.
It definitely changed the ride and feel. My uppers squeak sometimes too even though they're brand new. I'm considering replacing the upper arms now with OEM...
The lower control arm Daizen bushings didn't work out at all. I had to replace them with OEM's three weeks after they were installed. There's a lot of front to back stress on that single lower arm and the two part aftermarket bushing couldn't handle it. My front end wouldn't stay in alignment. I've sworn off the aftermarket bushings.
Does anyone know if the UCA's sold by Arnott Industries ($200 for the pair) have OEM bushings in them or polyurethane?
Thanks
I made the mistake of using aftermarket (Daizen) bushings for the upper and lowers on my car. I won't go with an aftermarket bushing again unless OEM isn't available.
It definitely changed the ride and feel. My uppers squeak sometimes too even though they're brand new. I'm considering replacing the upper arms now with OEM...
The lower control arm Daizen bushings didn't work out at all. I had to replace them with OEM's three weeks after they were installed. There's a lot of front to back stress on that single lower arm and the two part aftermarket bushing couldn't handle it. My front end wouldn't stay in alignment. I've sworn off the aftermarket bushings.
Does anyone know if the UCA's sold by Arnott Industries ($200 for the pair) have OEM bushings in them or polyurethane?
Thanks