LS400 Rear Deck Subwoofer Mounting
01-27-14, 09:18 AM
#61
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It's defiantly possible to run two subs. I have two 10's in mine, but I'm going to go back to a single. My box is too small for the two subs, so I'll keep the box the same size but run a single 10in. I'm curious as to how you guys are going to run such large subs and have a proper sized box for the sub? We all know where the gas tank is, and it doesn't leave as much room.
Did you have to cut out any of the two layer spot welded sheet metal or just the wavy corrugated stuff? The two layer spot welded stuff isn't exactly super strong but the OEM's do that in stressed areas to increase strength.
I think I may attach some square tubing along side of these areas, basically make a 3 or 4 sided frame for the new baffle plate to mount to, either welded or bolted. It will evolve as I get more into it. Angle iron can work too.
01-29-14, 02:43 PM
#62
So, thanks to you guys, my faith has basically been restored in the IB rear deck lol. My plan (now) is two Image Dynamics ID10s (the ID series apparently has a good reputation in free air applications) in the rear deck, running off two channels on a Crescendo Concerto 1100.4.
Last edited by Sc0pe; 01-29-14 at 03:17 PM.
01-29-14, 04:31 PM
#63
Why not just do a single 12 AE AU12IB on a sundown SAZ-1500D v2 for less? Amp is comparable in price, but will handle a 2nd 4ohm driver in parallel down to a 2ohm load and still provide a solid 465w to each sub.
Or were you planning on running a set of front speakers off the other channel?
Or were you planning on running a set of front speakers off the other channel?
01-29-14, 07:26 PM
#64
Why not just do a single 12 AE AU12IB on a sundown SAZ-1500D v2 for less? Amp is comparable in price, but will handle a 2nd 4ohm driver in parallel down to a 2ohm load and still provide a solid 465w to each sub.
Or were you planning on running a set of front speakers off the other channel?
Or were you planning on running a set of front speakers off the other channel?
01-29-14, 11:47 PM
#65
interesting....
this is the design i came up with for the deck, 1"x3/16" angle made into roughly a 30.5x16.5" frame, and then welded into the deck. A single 12" AE sub to start but with just a new panel bolted up from underneath inside the trunk, easy enough to upgrade to 2 12s.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217190835/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217190835/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217592704/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217592704/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217376353/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217376353/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217191965/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217191965/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
this is the design i came up with for the deck, 1"x3/16" angle made into roughly a 30.5x16.5" frame, and then welded into the deck. A single 12" AE sub to start but with just a new panel bolted up from underneath inside the trunk, easy enough to upgrade to 2 12s.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217190835/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217190835/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217592704/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217592704/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217376353/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217376353/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217191965/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12217191965/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
01-30-14, 02:37 PM
#66
Got a reply from john at AE...
Looks like will get going with a SBP12 I think. 
Originally Posted by John @ AE
Hi Mitch,
Infinite baffle subs by nature will not need a lot of power. There is a misunderstanding in car audio that taking a lot of power means it can get loud. In reality what is best is efficiency so you don't need to have a lot of power applied. If you compare a single SBP12 in the infinite baffle install to the pair of SA-10D4 you will see a massive difference in efficiency.
The SBP12 will reach Xmax at 30hz with 300W input. This gives 108dB before any cabin gain is added in. You can see that in the green curve. The pair of SA-10D4 require a total of 2500W input at 30hz to reach that same 108dB level! This isn't possible even as the coils are rated for 600W each so it requires 2x their rated power.
The other issue is with heat. At 300W input to the SBP12 it won't be getting very hot at all. It can dissipate up to 1000W of heat for short bursts without issue. In the case of the SA-10D4 though, you need a LOT of power applied which means a lot of heat. When the coil heats up, resistance rises and your amp can't put out as much power. It is a never ending cycle. The only benefit to having an inefficient woofer that needs a ton of power to get loud is that 80% or more of the heat is dissipated into the vehicle and it could warm up your car like an electric heater.
image by ZX3Tuning, on Flickr
The single SBP12 would give you more maximum output with much less power input than the pair of SA-10D4. It would also give drastically lower distortion due to inductance being less than 1/10 what it is in the SA-10D4. You can read about all the efforts we use to make the lowest distortion drivers available.
http://www.aespeakers.com/Lambda001-1.php
It is the reason we have SBP drivers in some of the best recording studios in the world for critical monitoring and in many hifi speakers over $100,000. The SBP12 is really an upgrade over the IB12AU.
Best Regards,
John
Infinite baffle subs by nature will not need a lot of power. There is a misunderstanding in car audio that taking a lot of power means it can get loud. In reality what is best is efficiency so you don't need to have a lot of power applied. If you compare a single SBP12 in the infinite baffle install to the pair of SA-10D4 you will see a massive difference in efficiency.
The SBP12 will reach Xmax at 30hz with 300W input. This gives 108dB before any cabin gain is added in. You can see that in the green curve. The pair of SA-10D4 require a total of 2500W input at 30hz to reach that same 108dB level! This isn't possible even as the coils are rated for 600W each so it requires 2x their rated power.
The other issue is with heat. At 300W input to the SBP12 it won't be getting very hot at all. It can dissipate up to 1000W of heat for short bursts without issue. In the case of the SA-10D4 though, you need a LOT of power applied which means a lot of heat. When the coil heats up, resistance rises and your amp can't put out as much power. It is a never ending cycle. The only benefit to having an inefficient woofer that needs a ton of power to get loud is that 80% or more of the heat is dissipated into the vehicle and it could warm up your car like an electric heater.
image by ZX3Tuning, on Flickr
The single SBP12 would give you more maximum output with much less power input than the pair of SA-10D4. It would also give drastically lower distortion due to inductance being less than 1/10 what it is in the SA-10D4. You can read about all the efforts we use to make the lowest distortion drivers available.
http://www.aespeakers.com/Lambda001-1.php
It is the reason we have SBP drivers in some of the best recording studios in the world for critical monitoring and in many hifi speakers over $100,000. The SBP12 is really an upgrade over the IB12AU.
Best Regards,
John
Originally Posted by Shmee
Thanks for the reply John,
I actually understood almost all of that!
Well, I guess the ultimate questions now are, is it worth it going to the SBP12 over a AU12IB or would the difference be insignificant enough on an automotive?
For either sub, would it be better to aim for the 300W you showed or would closer to 500W be better? Would an 86% efficiency from an amp at 4ohm be considered good or average?
I ask only because there is a $100 jump to go from 300W to 430W ($299 to $399) output at 4ohm and then another $90 to go from 430W to 530W ($399 to $489).
Is it worth while to do the Apollo upgrade on either of these drivers?
What would the discernible gains be?
Finally, what's the build time on either of these drivers or are they stocked items?
Thanks for all your help.
Cheers
Mitch
I actually understood almost all of that!
Well, I guess the ultimate questions now are, is it worth it going to the SBP12 over a AU12IB or would the difference be insignificant enough on an automotive?
For either sub, would it be better to aim for the 300W you showed or would closer to 500W be better? Would an 86% efficiency from an amp at 4ohm be considered good or average?
I ask only because there is a $100 jump to go from 300W to 430W ($299 to $399) output at 4ohm and then another $90 to go from 430W to 530W ($399 to $489).
Is it worth while to do the Apollo upgrade on either of these drivers?
What would the discernible gains be?
Finally, what's the build time on either of these drivers or are they stocked items?
Thanks for all your help.
Cheers
Mitch
Originally Posted by John @ AE
Hi Mitch,
The main benefit to the SBP12 is the lower distortion and also more efficiency. Up high, 60-100hz there is very little cabin gain so the extra efficiency of the SBP12 will help a lot there. That is the area that is most lacking in must car systems.
If you go with 300W you should be quite good. Going from 300-430W only gives about 1.6dB more maximum output. This won't be a real noticeable difference.
Here is the information on the Apollo upgrade:
http://www.aespeakers.com/Apollo.php
About 15% of people add this to their woofers.
One of the things that makes Acoustic Elegance different is that we custom manufacture every driver to order. As a result we do not stock any completed drivers here. Once an order comes in, it is added to the build list. We machine all steel, apply the copper shorting rings, and send those parts out to be zinc plated. The turnaround at the plating facility is about a week. When the parts come back we assemble the drivers, test, package, and ship. This whole process takes anywhere from 2-4 weeks normally. We are actually caught up quite well on builds at this time.
Best Regards,
John
The main benefit to the SBP12 is the lower distortion and also more efficiency. Up high, 60-100hz there is very little cabin gain so the extra efficiency of the SBP12 will help a lot there. That is the area that is most lacking in must car systems.
If you go with 300W you should be quite good. Going from 300-430W only gives about 1.6dB more maximum output. This won't be a real noticeable difference.
Here is the information on the Apollo upgrade:
http://www.aespeakers.com/Apollo.php
About 15% of people add this to their woofers.
One of the things that makes Acoustic Elegance different is that we custom manufacture every driver to order. As a result we do not stock any completed drivers here. Once an order comes in, it is added to the build list. We machine all steel, apply the copper shorting rings, and send those parts out to be zinc plated. The turnaround at the plating facility is about a week. When the parts come back we assemble the drivers, test, package, and ship. This whole process takes anywhere from 2-4 weeks normally. We are actually caught up quite well on builds at this time.
Best Regards,
John
Last edited by Shmee; 01-30-14 at 05:20 PM. Reason: Added in replies
02-08-14, 07:41 AM
#69
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This woofer on that baffle is just temporary. I haven't even ordered the SBP15 yet and just started on the baffle plate. It will look alot like the pic above but maybe more centered on the baffle plate which will make it less centered on the rear deck. Once the baffle is installed I'll cut the carpeted trunk liner using the cutout in the baffle.
02-08-14, 01:15 PM
#70
Will you be modifying the stock deck cover to hide it or...?
I'd think centred in the deck with a modified deck cover would be ideal, should be able to hide the baffle as well and keep it more stock looking. At least that is my current plan.
Speaking of which, i was bored last night because the old lady is sick, so I took a few rough measurements and made this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392466985/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392466985/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392467425/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392467425/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392917804/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392917804/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392615223/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392615223/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
at the moment, the components are:
2 Specialty suspensions 28"/5-gal tanks
2 Air Zenith Compressors
1 MB Quart RA1000.4 amp
1 MB Quart RA1500.1 amp
Accuair Elevel valve body
1 AE AV12 (which should be pretty close to the spacial specs of the SBP12)
That is roughly just the area under the deckled, the back-cuts in the deckled denote the placement of the trunk hinges. It doesn't look it but the foremost point on the arched deckled is directly above the front edge of the base and the backing is roughly just the carpeting without trying to do a crazy model. For mockup purposes, it should be more than close enough and if you were planning on building a false wall to protect everything, there is also extra room to stuff behind the placement of the carpeting which means you could probably do all of that flat to the back and only lose about 7" of depth from floor to underside of the deck.
I'd think centred in the deck with a modified deck cover would be ideal, should be able to hide the baffle as well and keep it more stock looking. At least that is my current plan.
Speaking of which, i was bored last night because the old lady is sick, so I took a few rough measurements and made this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392466985/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392466985/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392467425/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392467425/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392917804/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392917804/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392615223/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12392615223/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
at the moment, the components are:
2 Specialty suspensions 28"/5-gal tanks
2 Air Zenith Compressors
1 MB Quart RA1000.4 amp
1 MB Quart RA1500.1 amp
Accuair Elevel valve body
1 AE AV12 (which should be pretty close to the spacial specs of the SBP12)
That is roughly just the area under the deckled, the back-cuts in the deckled denote the placement of the trunk hinges. It doesn't look it but the foremost point on the arched deckled is directly above the front edge of the base and the backing is roughly just the carpeting without trying to do a crazy model. For mockup purposes, it should be more than close enough and if you were planning on building a false wall to protect everything, there is also extra room to stuff behind the placement of the carpeting which means you could probably do all of that flat to the back and only lose about 7" of depth from floor to underside of the deck.
Last edited by Shmee; 02-08-14 at 01:19 PM.
02-08-14, 02:02 PM
#71
Will you be modifying the stock deck cover to hide it or...?
I'd think centred in the deck with a modified deck cover would be ideal, should be able to hide the baffle as well and keep it more stock looking. At least that is my current plan.
Speaking of which, i was bored last night because the old lady is sick, so I took a few rough measurements and made this:
at the moment, the components are:
2 Specialty suspensions 28"/5-gal tanks
2 Air Zenith Compressors
1 MB Quart RA1000.4 amp
1 MB Quart RA1500.1 amp
Accuair Elevel valve body
1 AE AV12 (which should be pretty close to the spacial specs of the SBP12)
That is roughly just the area under the deckled, the back-cuts in the deckled denote the placement of the trunk hinges. It doesn't look it but the foremost point on the arched deckled is directly above the front edge of the base and the backing is roughly just the carpeting without trying to do a crazy model. For mockup purposes, it should be more than close enough and if you were planning on building a false wall to protect everything, there is also extra room to stuff behind the placement of the carpeting which means you could probably do all of that flat to the back and only lose about 7" of depth from floor to underside of the deck.
I'd think centred in the deck with a modified deck cover would be ideal, should be able to hide the baffle as well and keep it more stock looking. At least that is my current plan.
Speaking of which, i was bored last night because the old lady is sick, so I took a few rough measurements and made this:
at the moment, the components are:
2 Specialty suspensions 28"/5-gal tanks
2 Air Zenith Compressors
1 MB Quart RA1000.4 amp
1 MB Quart RA1500.1 amp
Accuair Elevel valve body
1 AE AV12 (which should be pretty close to the spacial specs of the SBP12)
That is roughly just the area under the deckled, the back-cuts in the deckled denote the placement of the trunk hinges. It doesn't look it but the foremost point on the arched deckled is directly above the front edge of the base and the backing is roughly just the carpeting without trying to do a crazy model. For mockup purposes, it should be more than close enough and if you were planning on building a false wall to protect everything, there is also extra room to stuff behind the placement of the carpeting which means you could probably do all of that flat to the back and only lose about 7" of depth from floor to underside of the deck.
I'm keeping all my air situated in the spare tire well, and keeping my amps/subs in the "center" of the trunk, as far back as I can get them to sit.
02-10-14, 07:30 AM
#73
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Once I get the SBP15 in there on the new steel baffle plate I will cut the rear deck cover to match and then make a new grill to cover what all was cut out. The OE grill is way too small and way too restrictive. The new one will be just a frame with speaker cloth pulled over it.
I need to research tricks and tips for making a grill, especially where/how to find the right color grill cloth. PE has a few options but not in a color that will look factory, I want a tan color like the factory one is. I wonder if I can use pantyhose? Lotsa colors in tan, stretchy and easily available.
The new grill will be centered on the deck but I'm not sure if I'll center the sub woofer left to right on the deck or just center it in the cutout which is not centered left to right. The cutout is centered a couple of inches towards the passenger side. One of the many tips I've learned over the years reading and building home HiFi is to avoid even or centered mounting locations on baffles. Off center will not provide equal or parallel surfaces which can lessen the chance of reflections.
That mock up looks nice. Does it move the mounting location back so far that you will need to remove the OE third brake light? I'll have to with mine and either re-install the OE brake light on or in the new grill or find a whole new one that will fit better.
I'll be replacing my full size spare tire with a compact spare so I'll have room to mount all of the amps and miscellaneous electrical mumbo jumbo under the floor. I might even get all custom and make a window to see some of the stuff. My trunk has a rigid carpeted floor cover that is backed with the press board and attachment fasteners and also a softer carpeted mat that sits on top of that. IDK if this is factory or if the previous owner installed the "LEXUS" embroidered mat as an option. With the mat in place, it will look factory. With it removed, any cutouts and/or windows I make in the rigid floor cover will be seen.
I need to research tricks and tips for making a grill, especially where/how to find the right color grill cloth. PE has a few options but not in a color that will look factory, I want a tan color like the factory one is. I wonder if I can use pantyhose? Lotsa colors in tan, stretchy and easily available.
The new grill will be centered on the deck but I'm not sure if I'll center the sub woofer left to right on the deck or just center it in the cutout which is not centered left to right. The cutout is centered a couple of inches towards the passenger side. One of the many tips I've learned over the years reading and building home HiFi is to avoid even or centered mounting locations on baffles. Off center will not provide equal or parallel surfaces which can lessen the chance of reflections.
That mock up looks nice. Does it move the mounting location back so far that you will need to remove the OE third brake light? I'll have to with mine and either re-install the OE brake light on or in the new grill or find a whole new one that will fit better.
I'll be replacing my full size spare tire with a compact spare so I'll have room to mount all of the amps and miscellaneous electrical mumbo jumbo under the floor. I might even get all custom and make a window to see some of the stuff. My trunk has a rigid carpeted floor cover that is backed with the press board and attachment fasteners and also a softer carpeted mat that sits on top of that. IDK if this is factory or if the previous owner installed the "LEXUS" embroidered mat as an option. With the mat in place, it will look factory. With it removed, any cutouts and/or windows I make in the rigid floor cover will be seen.
02-10-14, 02:21 PM
#74
You're right the sub can move back on the deck, this is probably closer to reality:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12444162225/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12444162225/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
baffle and amps moved back 4"
My setup is by no means a perfect visual-spacial representation of the deck. The deck baffle can move towards the front of the car by quite a bit i thin, another 5" which should allow retention of the stock 3rd brake light. i'm not sure about the centre seat belt though... not that i take a 3rd passenger, ever...
I don't want anything in the spare tire well, except the spare tire... A leak from the trunk seal is enough to damage/destroy the components I'd mount there, and seeing as I have already had water accumulation issues there, I'm hesitant to put anything electronic in the well on this car.
My plan is to make a nice 24x18" window out of plexiglass, centred along the back wall to protect that stuff under the deck while showing it off when needed, but with a carpeted plug that will hide everything and keep the plexi from getting marred up with daily use. the sides of the and basically the rest of the frame with get covered with a black mesh to allow for air movement through the rest of the trunk for the IB. When it is done, it will just look like a flat wall taking up the minimum space possible... ideally only ¾" more than the thickness of the air tanks which would be the thickness off the frame.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12444162225/http://www.flickr.com/photos/zx3tuning/12444162225/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/zx3tuning/, on Flickr
baffle and amps moved back 4"
My setup is by no means a perfect visual-spacial representation of the deck. The deck baffle can move towards the front of the car by quite a bit i thin, another 5" which should allow retention of the stock 3rd brake light. i'm not sure about the centre seat belt though... not that i take a 3rd passenger, ever...
I don't want anything in the spare tire well, except the spare tire... A leak from the trunk seal is enough to damage/destroy the components I'd mount there, and seeing as I have already had water accumulation issues there, I'm hesitant to put anything electronic in the well on this car.
My plan is to make a nice 24x18" window out of plexiglass, centred along the back wall to protect that stuff under the deck while showing it off when needed, but with a carpeted plug that will hide everything and keep the plexi from getting marred up with daily use. the sides of the and basically the rest of the frame with get covered with a black mesh to allow for air movement through the rest of the trunk for the IB. When it is done, it will just look like a flat wall taking up the minimum space possible... ideally only ¾" more than the thickness of the air tanks which would be the thickness off the frame.
02-10-14, 02:41 PM
#75
I'll be replacing my full size spare tire with a compact spare so I'll have room to mount all of the amps and miscellaneous electrical mumbo jumbo under the floor. I might even get all custom and make a window to see some of the stuff. My trunk has a rigid carpeted floor cover that is backed with the press board and attachment fasteners and also a softer carpeted mat that sits on top of that. IDK if this is factory or if the previous owner installed the "LEXUS" embroidered mat as an option. With the mat in place, it will look factory. With it removed, any cutouts and/or windows I make in the rigid floor cover will be seen.