thood341

Hi All

was wanting to find some guidenance / information on what to look for with my issue. This weekend I took on the task of replacing water pump / timing belt ( I used in online guide) and now the car will not start.

http://www.lexls.com/tutorials/engine/timingbelt.html

I walk thru the steps exactly and just need some ideas of where to start.
Do I need to go all the way back to set the timing again. Anything I can do to troubleshoot prior to doing that? Will I see any check engine code before the car actually starts?

I tried to set the timing marks exactly on what was specificied.

Just looking for some guidance and I don't have a 92 Service Manual.

92 LS400 - 192,000 miles

Thanks for any suggestions

LiCelsior

iTrader: (32)

is there spark and fuel?

thood341

Licelsior - Spark (yes) / Fuel (yes).

I went back and pull everthing again - and reset the timing belt checked my mark again. The belt was off the mark by about 2 inches (must have happen when was trying to tighten the main pulley bolt.
Upon pulling the distrib caps - I notice that my rotors where broken - fortunately I purchase 2 new ones from NAPA on the way home. My neighbor stopped by (who a mechanic - nonLexus) and he gave me a few pointers and tested some things - but finally said that he thought it was the timing off as well.

Again - I pull everything and reset the belt and cam settings...and still will not start. This time I it didn't start - but it backfired a couple of times.

This is the first time working on Lexus cars (althought I own a 01 Tundra / 01 Accord) and try to do most of the work on them. I have never replace a timing belt on a Lexus/Toyota - so this is a first for me.

I have download several instructions / guides on how to perform the "Timing Belt / Water Pump" repair - and have followed those. I must be missing some "KEY" piece of information.

Again - this car ran fine - before I started this project - except for the leaking water pump. Granted I just purchased the car from a dealer for $1500 - so there are a lot of things wrong with car - but I thought the engine was solid just needed some TLC. It was the only reason I agreed to buy it...cause the engine sounded great (very smooth).

Thanks for any help / advice

Travis

randal

Take a deep breath. Then start all over again. You do NOT want to crank that engine if the timing is in doubt. A backfire can put a flame into the intake manifold and catch your entire engine on fire. And that could ruin your whole day.

First off, make absolutely sure that the TDC mark on the crank is truly Top Dead Center of cylinder one. It could be off by one complete revolution. Since the timing is now in doubt, you will have to verify TDC for sure. You can pull the spark plug and verify.

thood341

RESOLVED !!! After some more searching of this site - I found this post from 3UZFTE
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...-question.html

This picture showed EXACTLY what my problem was all along - the distributor rotors were 180 degree off. The timing belt may have been off after the 1st installation (1 or 2 teeth) - but after the 2nd time - I "know" it was right - and the cam marks were correct as well. After viewing that picture to showed me what the instructions didn't. Part of it was my fault as well - for not documenting / marking items before I took them off. Big LESSON learned. I have a 2001 Tundra that is right at 80k, so I know its time for the water pump / timing belt for it. Now after completing this project successfully - I feel confident to do "my" Tundra now.

Was able to take the car around for a couple blocks and no leaks and performance is back to where it was before "I touched it".

@Randal - your response was my next step - if I had to disassemble the car again.
Thanks for your comments.

Now, on to the next item to fix on this car

1. check engine light - appeared after this job

btw - here is a pic of the car - again paid $1400 for it.

3UZFTE

HAHA glad you solved it, I was just going to say from the pictures it looks like your left dizzy was off by 180*. Also IIRC, the Tundra will be a bit easier as you don't have to deal with the dizzys, it uses coil over plugs. Glad I could help.

thood341

Update to this effort.
My son has been driving the car for a while now, and the car is driving like CRAP. We have had a "few" issues from the Timing Belt / Water Pump replacement project.
1. Idle is "ok" - but no power when on the throttle.

After the replacement project - there were a couple of things broken during the process. A couple of hard / dry hoses (see photo). The items of concern are the splices a shop charged my son ($100) to do (rip off!!). They put it on the computer to pull the codes and they said MAF sensor.

What I am wonder is if during the Timing Belt project - my friend sprayed brake cleaner in the throttle body (which is how we broke one of the hose). Did that hurt the MAF?
The second area is the MAF sensor itself. The car was running fine before we started this project. So I am skeptical about it suddenly going out. Can it be tested before replacing. I will search the site to see if there is a way. BTW I don't have service manual - I am using this site for that (LOL).

I have also searched the site and seen where you can reroute the vacuum hose and bypass the power steering. While that help my situation?

Lastly - I purchased ignition rotors from NAPA. Do I need to purchase OEM?

I did a little video on my NEW iPhone 3GS - but its to big to upload. Just trying to get the sound uploaded to share.

Would the best idea be to just start with the basics
1. check / replace the plugs (I replaced them during the original project)
2. I didn't replace the wires
3. I didn't replace the distribs

What about timing - is there a way to check the timing without pulling everything again. Does the fact that its running indicate that it right (or close).

I have a laptop - anyone know of some good diagnostic software I can purchase to capture codes? or should I just buy a OBDii tool.

Getting close to sending the car to the Lexus shop...my son is saying he getting very POOR mileage and he doesn't make much - so its a big impact to him.

I attached a photo with areas of concern.

Thanks for any advice !!

3UZFTE

I wouldn't worry about the brake cleaner itself, maybe the broken hose if it causes any sort of air leak. I think everything seems like it checks out, I am worried about the connection that is circled in the picture, if it is leaking air it is going to reduce the efficiency by a long shot. Check for any vacuum leaks, cracked hoses, etc. I wouldn't worry about the rotors, I bought cheap after market ones, and they are just fine. You might want to bring it to a shop to let someone else have a look at it.

Partycrash

Hi thood, sorry your still having problems. When I did my timing belt, it ran fine but I had a TPS code. Turns out I was off a tooth by not doing it exactly as the serv manual said and the TPS was compensating for the bad installation. You can put a timing light on it to check timing but mine checked dead nuts on because the TPS was compensating (and faulting). If your sure that you have only have a a MAF code, then yeah, prolly some dirt got in somewhere after you cleaned it. I pulled the whole throttle body on mine and cleaned it good only to get an EGR code when I was done. Dirt got in the modulator valve and no amount of cleaning fixed it. I bought a new valve and it was good to go. MAF almost always says vac leak though, good luck..

thood341

jumped into the car again this weekend. Another person with an LS400 convinced my son that the problem was the MAF sensor - so he bought one from the wreaking yard ($150) - installed it and still had the problem. Of course the vacuum lines are still the same - but no change in the way the car ran. My neighbor felt pity for me on Sunday morning and decided to help me troubleshoot. We pulled the coded (used the jumper wire) and obtained - Code 13, 24, 31
#1 - We started with pulling the plugs and one of them was gummed up pretty good (#7) - so we cleaned it and put it back no change - still rough idle.
#2 - started to check the wire with ohm meter and the the ole pull the plug while running test. Pulling the wires while the engine was running revealed that some of the cylinders weren't firing - so he's been running on just a few of them - should have saved gas (right - lol). We would need to remove more items to check the distributor and rotors.
#3 - Pulled all the plugs and rotated the engine to check the timing marks. Set the mark on "0". The passenger cam was above the mark by 2 teeth and driver cam was under by 1 teeth.

So our final determination was that we need to reset the timing again! My son decided he wanted to take it to a shop and let someone do it.

Thanks for all the input !!! it was very helpful. I love the interchange of information in forums like this. The internet ROCKS !!!

thood341

I'm back !!! After getting an estimate for repairs and looking at his wallet - he's come to the realization that dad is not out of his mind. So we decided to continue the work ourselves. So here is the latest problem.

Problem: The car is running like crap (technical term). No power at all - not even driveable. The idle is very rough like its missing. My neighbor (Iz) came over again..and indicated that it was the timing - so that's the goal - redo the timing belt

Saturday
Task#1 - Check / Realign the timing belt. Iz came by to help ensure the timing was correct and helped align it. We started by checking the spark.
1. Pulled each wire while car was running and (again) all of the cylinders were not firing. didn't write it down but do remember that #7 was not firing (among others). Pulled all the plugs and cleaned them since they were new (NGK Iridium)
2. Started on Timing Redo - Verified it was TDC and the cam marks lined up perfectly. verified that the rotors were aligned to marks. perfect. Iz left - we finished putting the car back together. Started Car - problems still existed. Started checking the plugs and wires again. Found a dead wire and went to by new set. Found some at AutoZone at 9pm - OReilly's was closed

Sunday
Woke up about 6:30am and decide to start searching the forum for ideas. Found a couple of ideas (coil replacement and testing procedure)
Went back to part store to get new coils but they only had one. Came back to start testing all the wires / coils. I didn't write them all down but here's what I do have
#1 - 5.2
#2 - ?
#3 - 14.6
#4 - 15.1
#5 - 16.3
#6 - 11.0
#7 - 0
#8 - ?
#C1 - 4.9
#C2 - 5.0

Installed the new wires (BorgWarner) $99 - didn't like that they don't have the wires numbers like the ones on the car. Started the car - still the same. check the coils again. Even tried the new coil but it still did the same.

Decided to mark which cylinders are firing and which are not.

RH
#2 - N
#8 - Y
C - Y
#3 - N
#5 - Y

LH
#4 - N
#6 - N
C - Y
#7 - N
#1 - Y

Iz came back over to check on us. After looking at things again we still can't understand why it not it not working. Started looking at the distributor. Went to store to buy new ones. Pulled pieces to install. Iz was questioning the rotor positioning relative to the distributor. He didn't think that it was lining up correctly to fire on time - they were a little advanced. Remember the cylinders firing #1, #8, #5. His next suggestion was to pull everything again to make sure the bottom sprocket is aligned - thinking that something is misaligned - because its not firing on time and the rotor is not aligning correctly with the distributor. I pulled the guides and showed how they are pointed in the right direction. We check the distributor for burning / cracks / etc. - but didn't find anything. Bought new ones...but not installed yet.

BTW - no check engine light

So...all of that to say - HELP !!!!!! I don't give up easily...but I feel a little beat down on this issue. I can't understand how with all the parts we have replaced it not running better - AT ALL! Well, I guess we have technically replaced
- Wires
- Validated Coils
- Plugs (ngk)
- Water Pump
- Timing Belt

Thanks for any assistance ANYONE can provide.

thood341

one other thing fixed on Sunday - on the drivers cam sensor - the wire had rubbed against the timing belt. I had worn to where the white wire was exposed but not completely cut (just barely removed cover). Now the sheathing to prevent noise talk was completely undone. I simply pilled the wire back - wrapped the white wire in electrical tape. Then wrapped the entire wiring again with electrical tape. I just found some info today to ohm the sensor...so I need to verify both sensors are within spec. Would this sensor being out cause the misfiring on both sides..remember only 3 cylinders are firing at the moment.

thood341

Can someone validate for me how to test coils. I have ohm'd the coils but the have the same reading as the new one. Am I suppose to have reading between the two small connectors? I get 0. On the new one also. I do get a reading going from the coil wire (big ) connector. Just tryin to figure out the right reading.

Acidic

iTrader: (1)

To start with I don't know how to fix your issue but let me tell you something from experience. I've been in deep over my head many times with cars and started throwing parts at cars and fixing things left and right and it has invariably been something simple that I'd already written off as fixed.... remember this thing ran fine when you started. Stop buying parts and chasing things that hadn't been worked on in the first place....

Also these things are simpler than you think. you need air fuel and spark. Start by checking each of those. I once had someone drive 10 hours round trip to rescue me on a move only to replace my plugs and have the vehicle run like a champ. I'd written off the plugs because they had been done like 3 months earlier

thood341

Thanks Acidic for the advise / reminder.

I have been researching this problem for weeks now and have seen that same statement over & over & over & over. I "believe" in that process as well. I work in IT (databases, servers, pc's, etc) and have taken many troubleshooting courses...and it's always the same - strip it back to the basics. My professional mechanic neighbor is also saying that same as you...one thing with him..is he works on domestics primarily...so he doesn't have the experienced "Lexus" knowledge as you and this forum has.

In our testing process we have done (last weekend)
1. tested spark, tested / cleaned / regapped spark plugs (I just bought a new set yesterday JUST to be sure).
2. I bought new wires when I tested one of them to be bad.
3. I bought new dizzy's (learn that term here - lol ) when I broke the existing set - by installing them wrong during the first time project. Neighbor believes they are not exactly lining up ( a little retarded - they haven't reached the correct point on the distributor when it time to fire)
4. we have examined the distributors and can't see any problems because we are getting good spark from each wire.
5. tested each wire with those little fake spark plugs to see if we are getting good fire/spark at the end of the wires (even the new ones - from O'Reilly)
6. bought a used MAF sensor from wreaking yard - because the existing one had a crack in the top of it...read here that those things are very sensitive. Tested it (from info I found on this site) and it's within specs
7. without my neighbor - I have redone the timing belt 3 times..#4 was with neighbor and when I spin the crank now..the marks are spot on (up top)
8. Pulled out my auto voltmeter to started testing electronic parts (cam sensor and coils) - bought a new one - for comparison ..but not installed yet.
9. I have downloaded so many guides (some from services manual, some from diy guides some of you have so graciously put together for us first timers)
10. We have pulled codes to know what the ECU is saying is wrong...we currently are NOT getting any codes.
11. FINALLY - I went out about bought OEM parts from Lexus because I read on this forum that "some" timing belts are not specs..(ie..Gates) - the belt I have. So I want to be sure that when I pull the engine apart again this weekend ( to check if the crank pulley is in the correct position at TDC) - that if the crank is setup exactly right... then we will be a lost - and the OEM parts are going on.

So my first thought / hope is that when we pull all the parts again..the bottom crank is off the mark. If not, next is to install the OEM parts (timing belt, distributors, rotors) and pray. I have all of these new OEM parts on hand just in case. If I don't need them then they are going back to the dealer.

But I am so frustrated because I am a novice at this and I know that its the little mistakes that escalate into "seemingly" bigger problems. I deal with software programmers on a daily basis...so I know that a "typo" can kill ya.

I love working on cars (my personal cars only) and hate to shell out money for work I "believe"/"know" I can do myself. I feel like this LS400 is a war...and I have lost some battles...but I am NOT losing this war.




Thanks for any / all advise.
"The greatest 9 letter word - Knowledge"