Frankly . . . 1st Gen Is Best
10-09-09, 07:37 PM
#1
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Frankly . . . 1st Gen Is Best
It is. The original LS400 is when Toyota was really trying to launch a world-class luxury car, they went for it with enthusiasm and zeal and competitive spirit, they were chasing down minutae with elan, they wanted so bad to kick Mercedes and BMW, they were paying attention, and they were not yet distracted with market-induced catch-up me-too bs as happened with the later generations:
Although the actual level of performance may be considered "modest" by today's standards, 20 years later, I see a car with very little pretension and a straight simple elegance that actually holds its own very well in current company. Straight simple elegance is a damn difficult achievement in a bells and whistles gee kewl toys-r-us automotive world . . . :
This car is riding the knife-edge of understated vs boring, but you know what? After seeing the stupid advertising of modern Mercedes and BMW and Audi and even Lexus automobiles, I just love driving a car bereft of TV screens and gizmo I-drives and DVD headrests and USB ports and all that crap. I like to drive cars. Sit in the damn car, read a tach and a speedo, and drive, period:
So after pulling into Atlanta after several weeks on the road and finding out that this perfectly peppy smooth muted V8 gave me an honest 26 mpg at 75-80 mph even with a few irritated "let's blow the doors off this Moron-in-the-Mustang", and enjoying really quite good music off this ancient Nakamichi, and just revelling in the ambience of the quality leather and sound suppression that rivals any modern car, and finding that it is very easy on the eyes but nonetheless compelling in its appearance especially on dramatic cloudy days or in warm late afternoon light, I am well-pleased with the $3,995.00 I blew to purchase this car, and the subsequent $900.00 for lower ball joints, A/C compressor and tires.
Now I drove a LS430 the other day, and it is a nice car too, of course, but it is too busy in its execution, the double wood insert steering wheel is pretentious, the busy dash is distracting, the styling is derivitive of the Pig Boat Mercedes that succeeded the S420, the cabin is claustrophobic with the headliner encroaching on you and, frankly . . . 1st Generation is best for honest clean principled execution. Ask the connecting rods and non-interference valve train of the 1st Generation engine, you can tell that this car was a sustained real effort to be the best it could be.
YMMV
Colin
(the above is hereby declared to be just opinions)
Although the actual level of performance may be considered "modest" by today's standards, 20 years later, I see a car with very little pretension and a straight simple elegance that actually holds its own very well in current company. Straight simple elegance is a damn difficult achievement in a bells and whistles gee kewl toys-r-us automotive world . . . :
This car is riding the knife-edge of understated vs boring, but you know what? After seeing the stupid advertising of modern Mercedes and BMW and Audi and even Lexus automobiles, I just love driving a car bereft of TV screens and gizmo I-drives and DVD headrests and USB ports and all that crap. I like to drive cars. Sit in the damn car, read a tach and a speedo, and drive, period:
So after pulling into Atlanta after several weeks on the road and finding out that this perfectly peppy smooth muted V8 gave me an honest 26 mpg at 75-80 mph even with a few irritated "let's blow the doors off this Moron-in-the-Mustang", and enjoying really quite good music off this ancient Nakamichi, and just revelling in the ambience of the quality leather and sound suppression that rivals any modern car, and finding that it is very easy on the eyes but nonetheless compelling in its appearance especially on dramatic cloudy days or in warm late afternoon light, I am well-pleased with the $3,995.00 I blew to purchase this car, and the subsequent $900.00 for lower ball joints, A/C compressor and tires.
Now I drove a LS430 the other day, and it is a nice car too, of course, but it is too busy in its execution, the double wood insert steering wheel is pretentious, the busy dash is distracting, the styling is derivitive of the Pig Boat Mercedes that succeeded the S420, the cabin is claustrophobic with the headliner encroaching on you and, frankly . . . 1st Generation is best for honest clean principled execution. Ask the connecting rods and non-interference valve train of the 1st Generation engine, you can tell that this car was a sustained real effort to be the best it could be.
YMMV
Colin
(the above is hereby declared to be just opinions)
10-09-09, 08:08 PM
#3
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1st gen is nice but the 98-00 was the best built of all the 430's are the beginning of the cost cutting measurements . UCF20's have better fitment and material quality for my taste with . Also have the least amount of recalls and warr service by the dealerships . As said by one Toyota HQ rep it is the best car Toyota ever made for quality.
10-10-09, 08:16 AM
#6
It is. The original LS400 is when Toyota was really trying to launch a world-class luxury car, they went for it with enthusiasm and zeal and competitive spirit, they were chasing down minutae with elan, they wanted so bad to kick Mercedes and BMW, they were paying attention, and they were not yet distracted with market-induced catch-up me-too bs as happened with the later generations:
Although the actual level of performance may be considered "modest" by today's standards, 20 years later, I see a car with very little pretension and a straight simple elegance that actually holds its own very well in current company. Straight simple elegance is a damn difficult achievement in a bells and whistles gee kewl toys-r-us automotive world . . . :
This car is riding the knife-edge of understated vs boring, but you know what? After seeing the stupid advertising of modern Mercedes and BMW and Audi and even Lexus automobiles, I just love driving a car bereft of TV screens and gizmo I-drives and DVD headrests and USB ports and all that crap. I like to drive cars. Sit in the damn car, read a tach and a speedo, and drive, period:
So after pulling into Atlanta after several weeks on the road and finding out that this perfectly peppy smooth muted V8 gave me an honest 26 mpg at 75-80 mph even with a few irritated "let's blow the doors off this Moron-in-the-Mustang", and enjoying really quite good music off this ancient Nakamichi, and just revelling in the ambience of the quality leather and sound suppression that rivals any modern car, and finding that it is very easy on the eyes but nonetheless compelling in its appearance especially on dramatic cloudy days or in warm late afternoon light, I am well-pleased with the $3,995.00 I blew to purchase this car, and the subsequent $900.00 for lower ball joints, A/C compressor and tires.
Now I drove a LS430 the other day, and it is a nice car too, of course, but it is too busy in its execution, the double wood insert steering wheel is pretentious, the busy dash is distracting, the styling is derivitive of the Pig Boat Mercedes that succeeded the S420, the cabin is claustrophobic with the headliner encroaching on you and, frankly . . . 1st Generation is best for honest clean principled execution. Ask the connecting rods and non-interference valve train of the 1st Generation engine, you can tell that this car was a sustained real effort to be the best it could be.
YMMV
Colin
(the above is hereby declared to be just opinions)
Although the actual level of performance may be considered "modest" by today's standards, 20 years later, I see a car with very little pretension and a straight simple elegance that actually holds its own very well in current company. Straight simple elegance is a damn difficult achievement in a bells and whistles gee kewl toys-r-us automotive world . . . :
This car is riding the knife-edge of understated vs boring, but you know what? After seeing the stupid advertising of modern Mercedes and BMW and Audi and even Lexus automobiles, I just love driving a car bereft of TV screens and gizmo I-drives and DVD headrests and USB ports and all that crap. I like to drive cars. Sit in the damn car, read a tach and a speedo, and drive, period:
So after pulling into Atlanta after several weeks on the road and finding out that this perfectly peppy smooth muted V8 gave me an honest 26 mpg at 75-80 mph even with a few irritated "let's blow the doors off this Moron-in-the-Mustang", and enjoying really quite good music off this ancient Nakamichi, and just revelling in the ambience of the quality leather and sound suppression that rivals any modern car, and finding that it is very easy on the eyes but nonetheless compelling in its appearance especially on dramatic cloudy days or in warm late afternoon light, I am well-pleased with the $3,995.00 I blew to purchase this car, and the subsequent $900.00 for lower ball joints, A/C compressor and tires.
Now I drove a LS430 the other day, and it is a nice car too, of course, but it is too busy in its execution, the double wood insert steering wheel is pretentious, the busy dash is distracting, the styling is derivitive of the Pig Boat Mercedes that succeeded the S420, the cabin is claustrophobic with the headliner encroaching on you and, frankly . . . 1st Generation is best for honest clean principled execution. Ask the connecting rods and non-interference valve train of the 1st Generation engine, you can tell that this car was a sustained real effort to be the best it could be.
YMMV
Colin
(the above is hereby declared to be just opinions)
10-10-09, 08:53 AM
#7
Driver School Candidate
Best
I agree with the 1st gen being an amazing automobile. I haven't owned another ls400 so I can't say any good/bad remarks about the newer ones, although I like the first gen styling the best. I work on and drive new bmws, from 3 series to 7s and all in between and I must say, my 92 Lexus beats most of them in not all, but many catagories. The fit and finish of the interior pieces are amazing. The quiet ride is the most impressive. And finnally, the reliability is awesome. At any time, I can get a special emoyee lease or purchase of a BMW, and I would rather have my 92 Japanese masterpiece.
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10-10-09, 01:41 PM
#8
Intermediate
Thread Starter
I see an analogy between the generations of the LS series and the evolution of the Rolls Royce.
The open body 1911 Silver Ghost could not rely upon sound suppression technology to keep the engine quiet. The engineers had to make the engine run quiet. Incredibly close tolerances (hand-polished journals to .00025") rigid aluminum alloy crankcases to reduce harmonics, large bearing surface area, and exquisite balancing, all yielded an engine that you could not hear running as you stared at it listening to the whisper of the leather segmented v-belt coursing through the pulleys.
The 1950 Silver Wraith was clearly more advanced (real roll-up windows) and it came with hydraulic brakes on the front and a devil-designed mechanical assist lever-actuated rear brakes, but it was nowhere near as amazing as the jewel-like Silver Ghost that turned out to be a unbreakable military truck in WWI.
I see a similar evolution in the Lexus LS4** series. The initial simpler design has been "improved-upon" with later cars having more power and many more toys, but which of the generations of these cars will have the longevity? Why is it that the original V8s have the more robust connecting rods that actually had less work to do? Under-stressed and over-designed? I like that about any engineering exercise. Anybody have long-term reliability statistics for the 400/430s?
Colin
The open body 1911 Silver Ghost could not rely upon sound suppression technology to keep the engine quiet. The engineers had to make the engine run quiet. Incredibly close tolerances (hand-polished journals to .00025") rigid aluminum alloy crankcases to reduce harmonics, large bearing surface area, and exquisite balancing, all yielded an engine that you could not hear running as you stared at it listening to the whisper of the leather segmented v-belt coursing through the pulleys.
The 1950 Silver Wraith was clearly more advanced (real roll-up windows) and it came with hydraulic brakes on the front and a devil-designed mechanical assist lever-actuated rear brakes, but it was nowhere near as amazing as the jewel-like Silver Ghost that turned out to be a unbreakable military truck in WWI.
I see a similar evolution in the Lexus LS4** series. The initial simpler design has been "improved-upon" with later cars having more power and many more toys, but which of the generations of these cars will have the longevity? Why is it that the original V8s have the more robust connecting rods that actually had less work to do? Under-stressed and over-designed? I like that about any engineering exercise. Anybody have long-term reliability statistics for the 400/430s?
Colin
10-10-09, 02:55 PM
#9
I see an analogy between the generations of the LS series and the evolution of the Rolls Royce.
The open body 1911 Silver Ghost could not rely upon sound suppression technology to keep the engine quiet. The engineers had to make the engine run quiet. Incredibly close tolerances (hand-polished journals to .00025") rigid aluminum alloy crankcases to reduce harmonics, large bearing surface area, and exquisite balancing, all yielded an engine that you could not hear running as you stared at it listening to the whisper of the leather segmented v-belt coursing through the pulleys.
The 1950 Silver Wraith was clearly more advanced (real roll-up windows) and it came with hydraulic brakes on the front and a devil-designed mechanical assist lever-actuated rear brakes, but it was nowhere near as amazing as the jewel-like Silver Ghost that turned out to be a unbreakable military truck in WWI.
I see a similar evolution in the Lexus LS4** series. The initial simpler design has been "improved-upon" with later cars having more power and many more toys, but which of the generations of these cars will have the longevity? Why is it that the original V8s have the more robust connecting rods that actually had less work to do? Under-stressed and over-designed? I like that about any engineering exercise. Anybody have long-term reliability statistics for the 400/430s?
Colin
The open body 1911 Silver Ghost could not rely upon sound suppression technology to keep the engine quiet. The engineers had to make the engine run quiet. Incredibly close tolerances (hand-polished journals to .00025") rigid aluminum alloy crankcases to reduce harmonics, large bearing surface area, and exquisite balancing, all yielded an engine that you could not hear running as you stared at it listening to the whisper of the leather segmented v-belt coursing through the pulleys.
The 1950 Silver Wraith was clearly more advanced (real roll-up windows) and it came with hydraulic brakes on the front and a devil-designed mechanical assist lever-actuated rear brakes, but it was nowhere near as amazing as the jewel-like Silver Ghost that turned out to be a unbreakable military truck in WWI.
I see a similar evolution in the Lexus LS4** series. The initial simpler design has been "improved-upon" with later cars having more power and many more toys, but which of the generations of these cars will have the longevity? Why is it that the original V8s have the more robust connecting rods that actually had less work to do? Under-stressed and over-designed? I like that about any engineering exercise. Anybody have long-term reliability statistics for the 400/430s?
Colin
But the evolution of LS series isn't limited to electronic roll up windows alone. The engine in the original LS400 (1UZ-FE) was being continuously improved and refined throughout evolution, and its 3UZ-FE sibling found in the LS430/GS430 is a master piece. I've worked on both 1UZ and 3UZ, and the improvements are massive. Here's a list of some of them.
1) Relocated throttle body from the side to the front of the engine, makes for easier access.
2) Eliminated distributors in favor of coil on plug - ignition system is a lot less complicated and easier to work on.
3) Eliminated mechanical fan - again, easier access to the engine.
4) Made EGR system internal and eliminated a million of vacuum and coolant tubes.
5) Easier access to fuel injectors.
6) One simple engine cover instead of a million of different covers.
7) Better engine management system, hotwire MAF instead of Karman Vortex, improved intake and exhaust to allow the engine to breath easier.
8) More compression (at the expense of non interference), VVTi system, more power.
9) Improved seals all over that are virtually leak proof.
10) Hydraulic lifters eliminate the need for valve adjustments.
Of course you've mentioned that connecting rods are thinner on the 3UZ, but that was done to save weight, and nobody has proven that 1UZ rods are actually stronger.
As far as the longevity, I think the 1UZ or 3UZ shortblocks are pretty much overbuilt and indestructible, unless you're going to modify them with forced induction, in which case you're going to build them up anyways. You can search this forum and other lexus forums, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone complaining about thrown rod, crank walk, piston knocks, blown head gasket, sludge, clogged coolant pores, or any such problems that usually warrant a major engine rebuilt or replacement.
And this is just the engine, everything else one the newer model was improved as well - electronics, interior, materials, paint, suspension, transmission, you name it, its better. It is usually not engine/transmission failures that cause Lexus vehicles in general to be sent to the crusher - but a bunch of other little things that are rather costly to repair. Leaks, rust, thrashed interiors, dead electronics, water leaks in the cabin and so on. And in the newer models all of these things have been much improved. And this is why I believe the newer Lexus models will have much better longevity than older ones. They don't suffer from the many little problems that early models had, just about everything has been improved and fixed.
I once owned a 1994 GS300, and in 2002 (8 year old) with roughly 100k it already felt old. My GS430 in 2009, roughly the same mileage, still feels brand new.
Perhaps the only thing I like better in the 1st gen LS (and other earlier Lexus models) is the more direct steering feel with better feedback. The newer models feature a steering column that collapses in an accident, and its implemented by introducing a rather flimsy joint that eliminates steering feedback and multiplying vibrations.
Last edited by Och; 10-10-09 at 03:03 PM.
10-10-09, 03:40 PM
#10
Intermediate
Thread Starter
You would want that fan on a reliability run, it is a primary redundancy (as in an electric fan failure is actually more likely than a mechanical fan failure)
ditto
ditto
As far as the longevity, I think the 1UZ or 3UZ shortblocks are pretty much overbuilt and indestructible, unless you're going to modify them with forced induction, in which case you're going to build them up anyways. You can search this forum and other lexus forums, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone complaining about thrown rod, crank walk, piston knocks, blown head gasket, sludge, clogged coolant pores, or any such problems that usually warrant a major engine rebuilt or replacement.
And this is just the engine, everything else one the newer model was improved as well -
And this is just the engine, everything else one the newer model was improved as well -
Colin
10-10-09, 03:54 PM
#11
Colin, I will respect your opinion to all the points that you believe to be irrelevant, but I will respectfully disagree. All of these contribute to longevity in the sense that the newer car is less labor consuming when it comes to repairs, and therefore repairs become cheaper, thus encourage owners to keep the car instead of just disposing it due to high repair and parts cost.
Try for instance $1000 Karman Vortex sensor vs $120 hotwire MAF. And the hotwire MAF is less complex and more reliable.
Or $350 seized mechanical fan clutch + labor, vs no mechanical fan at all. FYI, both cars are equipped with two electric fans, but on the 3UZ the electric fans kick in more often.
Or how about typical estimates of $500-1000 to replaced $120 cracked EGP pipe?
Like I said, both engines are overbuilt, and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone with major engine failure on either engine. As far as other components, theres just generally less to fail on the 3UZ, and whenever something does go wrong, parts are generally cheaper and labor is a lot less consuming.
As far as modifications go, hardly anyone with a 3UZ would be chasing 1UZ rods. A few years ago I read somewhere that 1UZ rods are actually more prone to twisting than 3UZ. Whatever the case may be, its a moot point anyways, if you're going to use force induction, you'd want Lextreme.com forged rods.
Try for instance $1000 Karman Vortex sensor vs $120 hotwire MAF. And the hotwire MAF is less complex and more reliable.
Or $350 seized mechanical fan clutch + labor, vs no mechanical fan at all. FYI, both cars are equipped with two electric fans, but on the 3UZ the electric fans kick in more often.
Or how about typical estimates of $500-1000 to replaced $120 cracked EGP pipe?
Like I said, both engines are overbuilt, and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone with major engine failure on either engine. As far as other components, theres just generally less to fail on the 3UZ, and whenever something does go wrong, parts are generally cheaper and labor is a lot less consuming.
As far as modifications go, hardly anyone with a 3UZ would be chasing 1UZ rods. A few years ago I read somewhere that 1UZ rods are actually more prone to twisting than 3UZ. Whatever the case may be, its a moot point anyways, if you're going to use force induction, you'd want Lextreme.com forged rods.
Last edited by Och; 10-10-09 at 04:02 PM.
10-10-09, 08:15 PM
#13
the first gen LS as a car is a masterpiece.
but through its evolution the LS400 got BETTER, and didnt get overcomplicated as you stated. honestly the way you dismiss some improvements then tout some features makes me think you just have a general dislike for technological advancements.
but through its evolution the LS400 got BETTER, and didnt get overcomplicated as you stated. honestly the way you dismiss some improvements then tout some features makes me think you just have a general dislike for technological advancements.
10-10-09, 09:39 PM
#14
the first gen LS as a car is a masterpiece.
but through its evolution the LS400 got BETTER, and didnt get overcomplicated as you stated. honestly the way you dismiss some improvements then tout some features makes me think you just have a general dislike for technological advancements.
but through its evolution the LS400 got BETTER, and didnt get overcomplicated as you stated. honestly the way you dismiss some improvements then tout some features makes me think you just have a general dislike for technological advancements.
