JWS2

Serious question from an enthusiast and not troll bait. But first, a bit of background.

I've driven Japanese cars exclusively for the last 10 years, including various Infinitis and Acura models and now an LS430. I consider myself a real car nut and will pay for quality and superior driving ability/experience. The only non Japanese cars in the household were two Jeep GCs and now a Kia Sodena, which are remotely intended to compete with the Japanese.

Here is where my question comes from: I have for various reasons recently driven several cars which I normally wouldn't even drive or even look at. I've recently driven a few Subarus, a Honda Accord and even a new Hyundai Sonata, all of which cost 40-60 percent (or more) less than my LS430.

Let me be blunt- I was SHOCKED at how narrow the differences were between the herd and the LS430. Yes, the LS430 ultimately drove better was and a bit smoother,especially with the V8 and to my eyes has a more refined interior, but I could not OBJECTIVELY justify the 50% or more price difference. I just did not see how the improvements were worth 25-35K more. 5-10K, yes. But 30+?? No, at least not when using pure logic w/o emotion. The Subarus (Legacy & Outback) models were especially surprising. With the turbo or 6cyl motors they would spank a GS430 and give an LS430 a real race for the money. Plus, their AWD systems are arguably superior and, get this-- there is a huge pano roof available!! Geez-- even the Hyundai drove pretty good and wasn't horrible to look it. Too bad we're stuck with it as a rental until my wife's car is repaired (long story short: 17 yr old idiot girl plows into wife's 9 month old Sienna XLE Ltd w/ AWD)

So here are my questions:
1)Given the (to me at least) increasingly small differences and diminishing returns, why are Lexus cars apparently overpriced, especially when features that should be standard, like xenons, seat warmers, folding rear seats, etc are options, and stunningly overpriced ones at that?
Is it the super high costs of Lexus labor? Material costs? High prices simply because they can and people buy the badge, like when women pay $1000 for a pocketbook when a $200 Coach is just as good?

2) Am I the only one to see a decreasing difference between higher end Lexus cars and the others? I am still floored over how the Subaru drove and how it was equipped- Nav, seat warmers, dual climate control, full leater, etc

3) Where do we think this will go? Will the improvements in the low-mid market spur Lexus and Infiniti to get that much better or will they rest on the laurels and losr market share?

4) Anything else to be added? Discuss?

morris

iTrader: (2)

I think you are comparing apples and oranges. YOu should compare the LS to the BMW or mercedes line. IE luxury cars not commuters like hondas or a Subaru.

If you dont see a huge difference between the subaru and an LS then I guess you should take the Subaru. But I think most people would see a huge difference in ride, comfort and luxury between the two cars. All those bells and whistles cost extra money to throw into the car you know.

SC400-V8

iTrader: (1)

The reason why lexus and some infinitis are so expensive is because of lasting quality. Lasting quality is the ability of a car to "feel like new" regardless of age or mileage when properly cared for. I have a 92 SC400 that feels and drives very much like a new car or even better than some new cars. I also have a 99 civic with fewer miles that drives and runs like an old, beat up car. Both cars are reliable, but the lexus holds its value becuz it always feels like new.

oohpapi44

iTrader: (1)

Just curious as to where you think the GS would get spanked and only give the LS a real race?

GRAND_LS 4

iTrader: (2)

Do you know how much work goes into building an LS, or any luxury car?

Did you know they started working on the first LS in 84, and launched in 89, so that’s a good 5 years of pure work trying to assemble the original LS. Then they have to stand by their cars to last a very long time.

What’s standard and optional are not Lexus' choice, more of demand and specific to the dealer, or region you are in. In many other places around the world, the Ultra Luxury package is standard on every Lexus.

If you want to know why a Lexus costs more then a Subaru, then I’m sorry to tell you that I do not have the time right now to explain, hopefully someone will be kind enough to do so.

But I will tell you to open the door of any LS, and check the materials, and work, craftsmanship and design process that went into making its interior and exterior. Then do the same for any Subaru, or Mitsubishi, or any other company you prefer.

mmccutchin

I believe you may have a point. . .and the LS430 is a good example.

First things first. . .the Japanese (esp. Toyota) are in a formidable position right now. . .nearly the same R&D/production platform. . .but the ability to pump out somewhat pricey and very well made Camrys/Avalons (think BUSINESS CLASS). . .and, of course, Lexuses (think FIRST CLASS).

They also believe--based on 15 years of outstanding success--that Lexus in North America has nearly the same snob appeal as MBZ and BMW (read "chance to premium price everything - including oil changes"). . .but no need to offer maintenance free service during the warranty period. . .or the same price/performance model that launched the brand in 1989-90.

So. . .two questions for you (and others) to think about:

1: Are some Lexus models really better made than higher end Toyota models?

Let's pick on my 1992 ES300. . .sold last week for spare parts ($700) to my mechanic. . .167K miles. . .rear head gasket blew + clutch problems + new A/C compressor needed (local dealer quoted $6,500-7000 and three weeks to fix).

Past history? No problems at 0-60K. . .within a few months after the warranty expired the transmission conked out. and the problems began in the 70-120K range . .Lexus of North America paid the bill but left me holding the labor bill (which was about $1,600). . .two water pumps went out

I do not consider my ES300 to have been a lemon. . .but an "average" litter from the crop albeit the first year of ES300 (but there were already 250's and an experience curve with V6's). . .was my car really better made than a Camry or Avalon? I'm convinced a 1992 Camry could have met or even exceeded the service experience of my Lexus!

2: Does the current LS430 compete well against the BMW 7 series, the MBZ S class, and the Audi A8?

Recall in the "Lexus Story" that the original LS400 was intentionally planned to compete at #1 or #2 in ALL performance categories AND be about $15-20K cheaper than its competition.

The same cannot be done today. . .maybe it doesn't have to. . .as but one consumer I believe it does when we're talking about a $70K+ automobile.

The LS430 is hands down the #1 car for "inside cabin" and "price". . .but it is noticeably and surprisingly! lacking in the performance category. . .also consider that when the front hood is popped by the sales consultant you can't even see the engine these days because of a plastic covering (which personally I find offensive. . .are they trying to hide something. . .or tell me something else like: get back in the car. . .enjoy the ride. . .just keep sending those checks to our service department and don't worry about how many 0's you write. . .trust us. . .it will NEVER be as much as BMW or MBZ but we're narrowing the gap!)

Still I love Lexus and plan on having at least one in our home garage (currently own a 1993 LS400). . .I am somewhat critical of their so-called "flagship" (LS) strategy, which is what got them on the map to begin with. . .and, in recent years, 2-3 models, especially the SUV RX's, have accounted for more than 2/3's of sales!

caffeine

I own a LS400 and kind of understand what you're trying to get at. First off let me say that I think that the LS is a bargin compared to the S-Class, 7 Series, and A8. I do not think those cars are worth $10-$20 more. But as far as the cars that are $30 grand less.....like the Suburu Legacy GT Limited, its hard to justify the double the price difference. If anyone's been in the new Suburu, it looks amazing inside with the leather, real non-plastic covered wood and the avalaible navi/seat warmers.

As far as ride goes....the stanard AWD is awesome. And even though the engine isn't nearly as refined, and wont' be as reliable. So I do see your point...but it is a hard one to argue.

spwolf

I have driven new Sonata, model with all options, and while it is an "fine" car, if you can even put it on the same page as LS430, you definetly dont need an luxury car.

GS Kid 300

Lets compare Kias to Lexuses. .. You can buy a casio watch for $30.. still it functions the same as a $5k+ rolex but we all know rolexes are much better... automatic movement, more prestige.. etc. Who really needs rear folding seats in their lexus though.. are you going to carry 2x4s in a luxury car.. I dont think so.

GRAND_LS 4

iTrader: (2)

..........

LexFather

First, welcome to Clublexus. Second, I see what your saying. Third, my background, auto nut as well, expert in Lexology

Understand in the past 5 years, technology and competiton has increased so much, non-luxury cars now have once thought of luxury items increasingly. It is no longer rare to see a non-luxury brand with leather, hids, power controls, climate control etc. Part of the reason for this is Toyota, the Camry and Accord are so well built, the competiton HAD to catch up. These 2 cars are perfect for most people.

The Korean companies are DEAD SERIOUS on being a top competitor. So there is a drive within the company to continue to build better and better products and with their cheap labor, the cars are cheaper. They also are putting more luxury items inside.

Suburu is on a roll as well. So much, that Toyota just bought an 8% share in the company . The Legacy has many near luxury features as well and very good build quality.

A new LS 430 is now at the end of its product cycle. It still is leaps and bounds in build quality over those cars you mentioned (and most anything else) but some of its features are now in non-luxury cars.

10 years ago, it was pretty obvious that many, MANY non-luxury and luxury cars were LAUGHABLE. Today, this is no longer the case. 10 years ago, Lexus, BMW and Benz were fighting themselves. Today, EVERYONE has stepped up their game.

Now lets understand something here. The LS competiton is the S class, 7 series and cars of that caliber. The LS has blown these cars away in comparison after comparison since 2001. On top of that, the LS is MUCH less expensive than these cars. So the LS may be 50% more than a non-luxury car, but its 15-20% cheaper than its own competiton!

Add that we should ALL acknowledge that we do buy LUXURY cars for the prestige and name. Clearly Benz and BMW knows this, as they charge much more for thier base cars than a loaded Lexus. They know people pay for the BRAND.

This is worth something to people. that is why a base 325 with pleather and a tape player sells for 35k out the door when you could get a loaded, 250hp, AWD Suburu Legacy for the same price.

Lexus has simply built the finest and most reliable cars in the world. Since their inception, they have been tops in all quality reports. They are tops in the 5 year old reports. My family has a SC 400 with 240k miles and my ES 300 has 225k miles, no glaring issues. My GS 400 was strong enough to save my and 3 friends lives, we walked out a head on accident clean.

The plant the LS is built in Tahara Japan is the finest plant in the world, winning every accolade an automobile plant can win.

Lexus IS NOT perfect. There will be some cars not as well built. Its odds.

I cannot begin to explain the painstaking effort that the LS is made with every generation. just one amazing fact.

That giant LS 430 you own, has a much lower drag than that smaller Legacy and Hyundai.

LexFather

A couple things.
It is now INDUSTRY STANDARD to cover up the engine bay with plastic cladding. EVERY car maker does it now. Not just Lexus.
The LS may lack in the slalom but with only 278hp, the LS is near quickest in class, still a sub-low 6 second car and a low to mid 14 sec 1/4 mile car. This is QUICK for a car this size.

Yes, the LS is 7/S compeititon. it whoops them year after year in sales and in automobile comparisons. The A8 won 1st recently, but the LS 430 was 2nd.

As for the ES sorry to hear about the trouble, as I stated before my ES 300 manual drives old (its a 92 as well) but is a great daily commuter.

Some of this I think has to do with the fact Lexus continue to go up in price. I remember seeing in a showroom not 1 but 3 LEXUS vehicles priced over 60k! (SC/LS/LX) and couldn't believe it.

Lexus has come a long way, and will continue to price upward, but still below BMW and Benz.

LexFather

Finally, its natural to ask "is a LS 430 worth twice as much as a Subie or Hyundai". Now we should also ask "Is a S600 or 760 BMW worth twice as much as a LS"?

From a performance standpoint, the Mitsubishi EVO can dust, hang or beat most any performance car, for $30,000. So are $250,000 Ferraris worth it? Etc etc?

Clearly in our world, people think so. Rationally speaking, I see where your point is.

sha4000

iTrader: (1)

you guys done got 1sick started

dfkd

I'd say that 15 CONSISTENT years of history has proven Lexus to be a company that produces quality, and more importantly, LONG LASTING autos. That's why they can sell at the prices they do and you know what?...people who truly appreciate real quality regardless of price will pay it.

I like the business class vs 1st class comment. i agree with that.

I'd actually say though that Lexus is cheap relative to it's competitors when it's brand new and when they get older, they hold their value better because everyone knows they last a mighty long time.

Name one other car that CONSISTENTLY makes it over 250,000miles without drastic mechanical problems and a lot of rust.

Most other cars after 15 years just "feel old" the lex does not. I think everyone here will agree with me on that.

I think the prices are just the natural way that pricing works in the economic world we live in.

These cars dont break that much therefore demand for the parts are pretty low.

Economic law demands that low demand = high price. Simple as that in my eyes.

As for the bridging of the gap in equpment...this has been this way in Japan for YEARS. In fact, my father was just in Japan and the law in Japan now is that all new cars made to drive there will need to start coming with navigation as STANDARD. You can get a Yaris with leather and navi if you want.

Even there though no one would ever compare a Lexus to an Avalon because they are in different classes. If everyone could afford a Lexus or its equivalents we'd all be driving them but some how we're not.

Luxury cars are a status symbol and will always be.

A guy with a "Polex" can tell time just as well as a guy with a Rolex but the Rolex is still worth 1000x more.