bostonsnow

in '05, I went from a stick shift Acura Integra GSR to the ES. So it was going from sporty coupe to a relatively nice big luxury sedan....
So that was probably some of the impact/impression when I got the ES.
But I still think the ES of the 05 time frame was built more solidly and with more refinement that the current ES is...... Evidence of lexus cost cutting in the 2016 ES is rampant whereas everything seemed to have been put on the 05 ES with attention to luxury and detail. Case in point, the gas tank cap. The 05 had a nice solid heavy weight gas cap, probably the same one that was used on all lexus lines in 05. The gas cap and fuel door and hinge etc never caused any issues. The 2016 ES has a lightweight flimsy feeling gas cap that I would'nt be surprised if it was the same one used on the Toyota Yaris etc......maybe it will be reliable but it does'nt give the impression of luxury or quality.....

SW17LS

Yeah thats a big reason why you feel that way. Going from the 05 to the 16 is a more lateral move. I had an 03 ES (basically the same as your 05) and it was and is a great car, its still in the family.

I feel you on the cost cutting, and its especially apparent in the ES although to some extent its everywhere in the lineup. There is definitely a material quality difference, and a difference in those details like you said. They fixed a lot of it in '16, the '13-15 ES was terrible inside IMHO, a big step down in quality from my 2010 ES which was a step down from my 03 in a lot of ways.

When you move up to the GS and certainly the LS you get all those touches back and more.

RX469

iTrader: (1)

No doubt about it, this system will sound excellent! While you're at it, you should install some sound dampening material like, Dynamat. It'll soak up lots of road vibrations/noise; give your doors a little more body/weight for a more solid closing - thunk; and really make your music come alive.

Cubbylex

Hello Greg:

I was wondering if you are still actively searching for another Ls460 and how that was going?

Hope things are going well on your Camry.

I think we are all vicariously searching along with you as that seems to be just as fun as finally getting what we have been looking for;-)

Cubby

greg3852

I'm actually not looking at the moment as my audio install, motorcycles, and grandkids are taking up all my time. In between all that I work a little too.

I'm actually going to start the sound deadening install tomorrow. Then I need to build a bigger box for my subs. I'm going with 2.5Cu Ft per sub, so it'll be fairly large. Bought another Alpine amp for the front speakers and installed it. I have both Alpine amps installed although I am going to clean up the wiring and build a nice something or other to mount them to. After that I think I am going to install a new HU with Apple CarPlay on it. The sound deadening installation is going to take a while as I am removing the entire interior of the car and doing it completely. Hopefully it will be nearly as quiet as the LS.

I imagine all this will take me through the winter, and then I will start the search after I am looking for a new project.

FatherTo1

Haven't driven a '16 ES but did test drive a '13 ES before we went with an 06 LS. The wife has an 06 ES that has served us well for over a decade. The leather in her car is still sumptuous and wrinkle free. I believe the '13 ES doesn't even have real leather and is now the NuLuxe synthetic material. That was disappointing not to have the genuine article for a car close to $40K, but I will admit the NuLuxe felt very nice and had me fooled at first. The contours of the '13 ES seat and headrest sort of closes and wraps around your entire body. It was an odd feeling at first and felt a little tight and what I would expect in a sports car but not in a luxury sedan. The ride quality of the '13 ES was well-dampened and body motions were well-controlled. I found the interior quiet and serene...until we hit the freeway where there was a lot of wind noise and buffeting near the A-pillar. Overall, I thought it was a fine vehicle and I liked the enlarged Avalon-like space and dimensions but it definitely felt like a downgrade from our beloved 06 ES330 -- hence why an 06 LS now shares the garage instead of a pair of ESes. IIRC, the '13 ES only had a single cup holder for the front passengers! With the ability of touch screens and software to assume many adjustment functions, why can't designers devote more space to additional cup holders? It would be nice for a luxury sedan to have 6 cup holders (and I don't count bottle holders in the doors). It doesn't make sense to me why 5-passenger vehicles only have four cup holders, or sometimes only two cup holders if the rear center armrest has to be concealed to transport five people. Anyways, I went completely off tangent there...

On another side-note, I originally really, really, really wanted an 07 460L but was put off by the engine noise, 8-speed tranny, small trunk, harsher ride, and increased maintenance. Still really yearn for a long-wheelbase LS that doesn't compromise trunk space. For now, I really do love our 430 (credit the Pirelli P7+ tires). Hope Greg finds that '13+ LS in perfect condition. Amazed what he went through on that Vegas trip and was really saddened by his loss of the LS. The Camry is not a terrible car. We aspired to get into a Camry back in our humbler days, but once you've experienced an LS it is very hard to go backwards. I understand the dilemma Greg was in and don't fault him for making the best decision based on the circumstances. Glad you're enjoying installing new accessories in the Camry. Look forward to seeing you back in a newer LS though.

Cubbylex

Yea it sounds like you have enough to keep you busy for sure.

Hope the sound deadening material works and that you will, given time constraints, keep us updated on the Camry project.

Hope your winter is not too harsh and that all goes as planned.

Good luck.

Cubby

SW17LS

The new ES has two cupholders upfront, they just aren't side by side. Theres one above the remote touch controller, and one below the gearshift.

Things like cupholders in a luxury car are a balance of function and aesthetics. If you put cupholders everywhere and they aren't hidden IMHO the vehicle starts to look like a utilitarian minivan, I like nice cupholders hidden behind an attractive wood door, etc.

The new ES also has two grades of available leather, the NuLuxe is just standard. For a long time cloth was actually standard on the ES, although very rare so that really doesn't bother me.

I look at 5 passenger vehicles as basically 4 passenger vehicles that can carry 5 people in a pinch.

FatherTo1

Thanks, Steve, didn't realize about the second cup holder location nor the upgraded leather option. I completely agree about the elegance of concealed cup holders. I just wish there were more available. With the wide tunnel of the LS, they could have allowed additional hidden cup holders instead of all the sunshade and suspension toggles. Those switches could have been replaced by software and on-screen menus, IMO. Another option is to add slim spring-out cup holders from the older SC300/SC400, although those might be too flimsy.

Perhaps I am jaded coming from a Sienna with its 13 cup holders. On top of that, we position our daughter's carseat in the middle of the backseat for maximum protection in the event of a crash, which was another reason I felt getting a UL was a waste since all of the rear center controls would be closed up for years. Thank goodness the carseat has two cup holders of its own but that's still barely enough for us. What can I say, we're thirsty people and the LS is built for long-distance cruising so more cup holders are a welcomed addition. I would even pay for the option of more factory cupholders, rather than trying to retrofit the LS with unstable cup accessories from Amazon.

SW17LS

But you need buttons, cars have too many menu options already, and not all LSs have navigation screens.

You our have to understand that your Sienna is designed to be a family driving appliance, in a lot of ways function over form or appeal, your LS is not. I've driven multiple LSs on trips and I just don't see the need for a ton of cup holders, and that's not typical for vehicles in that segment.

FatherTo1

If it's not typical of cars in the segment, then what a great way to set yourself apart! I don't think it would be difficult to innovate and add a few additional creature comforts if Lexus tried. Sure, there's a need for some physical buttons but even the 2013 LS tried to reduce the overabundance of ***** and switches from the earlier series in the 4th-gen LS. And, additional cup holders could have been placed if they didn't opt for the huge mouse controller. I mean, what was really wrong with touchscreens that necessitated the move to a mouse, other than for the sake of keeping up with MB/BMW? It's interesting how we're accustomed to touchscreen tablets and smartphones, and even Tesla makes a GUI as the focal point of their center console, yet MB/BMW/Lexus decided to go backwards with the user-interface controls (for a few generations now with MB/BMW).

I realize cup holders are not a design priority for sedans, as opposed to minivans, but I would much rather have cup holders than cruise control, self-parking, or heated seats to be honest. In 20 years of driving I have only used cruise control a handful of times and mostly just out of curiosity. It is simply not a feature I value, even on 2200 mile trips from California to the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. Same goes for heated seats or heated steering wheels. I am partial to ventilated/cooled seats, but I don't care for heated seats at all. I understand that such features are meaningful to others. All good, but a very small minority of LS owners even bother to use the self-parking assist due to the slowness of the system. That is R&D that could have been better spent improving other areas, such as drink holder design. After all, those with a UL and the cooler box option would need more cup holders for their opened beverages. Enough cup holders to match the number of seat belts, is that so much to ask? I probably won't get my wish anytime soon but it won't be from a lack of asking.

SW17LS

If you would rather have cup holders than these features and luxuries...I would ask why you bought a luxury sedan and not a minivan? Instead of trying to make a vehicle something it isn't, why not buy something that actually is what you want it to be? The reason they spend more R&D on these features than on cup holders is because that's what customer,Wes want in a high end luxury vehicle. Cup holders are a feature that was perfected many years ago, what else needs to be designed?

My Sedona has every creature comfort my LS has and more, and a ton of cup holders.

I dont mean mean to be critical, I just don't want to sacrifice features and quality and style for ugly cup holders when 4 is more than enough for 90% of situations. If I wanted more function in lieu of form I would have chosen a more utilitarian vehicle.

As as for the mouse controller, adding that allowed them to use a wider, deeper set higher screen. That's why they went to that technology, and that's really the place the industry is at. You see it more than you don't in luxury cars. The mouse controller replaced the ashtray, not cup holders.

FatherTo1

Good point about the mouse supplanting the ashtray, Steve, and apologies to the OP for my side topic and derailing the discussion.

We did have a minivan prior to the LS. Strange as it sounds, I came to the conclusion that a sedan would meet our needs better than a minivan. Case in point, the Sienna seats seven and there's only three of us. However, when traveling with my parents, my Mom would need to sit in the 3rd row due to the 2+2+3 seating arrangement because you can't get leather and 8-passenger seating on the 07 Sienna. This meant my Mom could not see her granddaughter on trips.

I quickly tired of the Sienna ride and noise level but stuck it out for four years. I really needed a smoother and quieter car to maintain my sanity on trips and commutes. I recalled how fabulous my experience in a '94 LS400 was. With the large trunk of the 06 LS I didn't feel we gave up that much practical space (maybe just a little vertical space) compared with the Sienna, plus now three people can sit comfortably next to each other in the backseat and Grandma gets to see and be close to her granddaughter. Everything has been working according to plan and I am grateful to the wife for approving the LS upgrade. The LS is our go-to car and it becomes clear on weekend trips that we could use more cup holders is all. If I could somehow convert the ashtray to a cup holder then I would. Focus groups probably confirm the need for only four drink holders but our 5-passenger 06 Tundra Double-Cab has a better cup holder-to-passenger ratio than the LS. Don't get me wrong, I love the LS and the cup holder issue bothers me more because my expectation is higher for the Lexus flagship, especially when I see the issue better addressed in lesser vehicles within the same brand (Toyota). Really, that's my only complaint about the LS and it's a very personal one at that. It's not enough for me to ditch the LS and give up the other benefits, of course.

Did the OP decide on which way to go? Camry or LS?

SW17LS

Again, doesn't surprise me about your Tundra. That's a vehicle built for utility, not style