CPO, but is it really?
04-26-16, 07:56 AM
#31
Sounds like the kind of Lexus dealership I'd want to give my business to.
I'm a Used Car Manager at a Lexus store.
You CANNOT CPO a Lexus that's had more than 3 panels (bumpers excepted) repainted.
Period.
So that car should have never been CPO'd. Period. End of story.
I will NOT CPO a car that has had any evidence of actual collision damage either (regardless of what the Carfax says).
As far as VSAs go... Lexus changed the L/Certified program, you can now add up to 5 years of additional coverage.
You CANNOT CPO a Lexus that's had more than 3 panels (bumpers excepted) repainted.
Period.
So that car should have never been CPO'd. Period. End of story.
I will NOT CPO a car that has had any evidence of actual collision damage either (regardless of what the Carfax says).
As far as VSAs go... Lexus changed the L/Certified program, you can now add up to 5 years of additional coverage.
04-26-16, 07:56 AM
#32
Moderator
Thread Starter
I'm a Used Car Manager at a Lexus store.
You CANNOT CPO a Lexus that's had more than 3 panels (bumpers excepted) repainted.
Period.
So that car should have never been CPO'd. Period. End of story.
I will NOT CPO a car that has had any evidence of actual collision damage either (regardless of what the Carfax says).
As far as VSAs go... Lexus changed the L/Certified program, you can now add up to 5 years of additional coverage.
You CANNOT CPO a Lexus that's had more than 3 panels (bumpers excepted) repainted.
Period.
So that car should have never been CPO'd. Period. End of story.
I will NOT CPO a car that has had any evidence of actual collision damage either (regardless of what the Carfax says).
As far as VSAs go... Lexus changed the L/Certified program, you can now add up to 5 years of additional coverage.
04-26-16, 05:41 PM
#33
About 7 years ago I was the used car manager at a Toyota store in NY. I got in a very clean looking, 28K mile 2005 RAV4. Now, normally this would be a home run car for us and we would CPO it.
Except that this car had been cracked in the front. HARD. The entire left front corner of this thing was new; frame rail, inner fender, radiator support, hood, fender, etc. It had also blown its' airbags.
The CARFAX? Clean.
Now, this was structural damage and no way in heck was I CPOing this car or even selling it. I think at the time typical wholesale/trade in was around $12K for it and I think I gave the customer $8500 or 9000 and they were fine with that as it had been clubbed and they knew it. The owner was honest, told us it was in a serious accident that happened when it was almost new and it was just shy of being totaled.
So I sent it to Southern Auto Auction in CT. It crosses the block, I announce Frame/Unibody damage. A guy come up to the podium, asks how the Carfax was, I mention that it's clean...
This thing brings, IMO, stupid money, just shy of $11K.
Buyer? A Toyota store in New England. The underbidder? ANOTHER Toyota store.
2 weeks later I check their website? It's on there as a Toyota Certified Used Vehicle.
04-26-16, 07:13 PM
#34
Lexus Test Driver
Sadly, yes, you're correct. Reminds me of a story....
About 7 years ago I was the used car manager at a Toyota store in NY. I got in a very clean looking, 28K mile 2005 RAV4. Now, normally this would be a home run car for us and we would CPO it.
Except that this car had been cracked in the front. HARD. The entire left front corner of this thing was new; frame rail, inner fender, radiator support, hood, fender, etc. It had also blown its' airbags.
The CARFAX? Clean.
Now, this was structural damage and no way in heck was I CPOing this car or even selling it. I think at the time typical wholesale/trade in was around $12K for it and I think I gave the customer $8500 or 9000 and they were fine with that as it had been clubbed and they knew it. The owner was honest, told us it was in a serious accident that happened when it was almost new and it was just shy of being totaled.
So I sent it to Southern Auto Auction in CT. It crosses the block, I announce Frame/Unibody damage. A guy come up to the podium, asks how the Carfax was, I mention that it's clean...
This thing brings, IMO, stupid money, just shy of $11K.
Buyer? A Toyota store in New England. The underbidder? ANOTHER Toyota store.
2 weeks later I check their website? It's on there as a Toyota Certified Used Vehicle.
About 7 years ago I was the used car manager at a Toyota store in NY. I got in a very clean looking, 28K mile 2005 RAV4. Now, normally this would be a home run car for us and we would CPO it.
Except that this car had been cracked in the front. HARD. The entire left front corner of this thing was new; frame rail, inner fender, radiator support, hood, fender, etc. It had also blown its' airbags.
The CARFAX? Clean.
Now, this was structural damage and no way in heck was I CPOing this car or even selling it. I think at the time typical wholesale/trade in was around $12K for it and I think I gave the customer $8500 or 9000 and they were fine with that as it had been clubbed and they knew it. The owner was honest, told us it was in a serious accident that happened when it was almost new and it was just shy of being totaled.
So I sent it to Southern Auto Auction in CT. It crosses the block, I announce Frame/Unibody damage. A guy come up to the podium, asks how the Carfax was, I mention that it's clean...
This thing brings, IMO, stupid money, just shy of $11K.
Buyer? A Toyota store in New England. The underbidder? ANOTHER Toyota store.
2 weeks later I check their website? It's on there as a Toyota Certified Used Vehicle.
04-27-16, 07:52 AM
#35
Great insight. Very interesting thread.
Here's a question I had always been thinking...
Let's imagine that someone leases a high-end vehicle (like the Lexus LS) for a 3 year term.
Then during the lease, they get into a MAJOR accident, but the car is not totaled (maybe because it was nearly new when the accident occurred), and the car is repaired "to proper specifications". The CarFax is noted accordingly, showing the accident.
At the end of the lease, the car is returned to the dealership. Obviously, the car is now worth much less due to the very serious accident it was in.
Here's the question:
Considering this was a lease return, does Lexus "eat" the depreciation in value (from the accident), or is the lessee somehow held financially responsible for the now much-lower resale value of the car he turned in?
Here's a question I had always been thinking...
Let's imagine that someone leases a high-end vehicle (like the Lexus LS) for a 3 year term.
Then during the lease, they get into a MAJOR accident, but the car is not totaled (maybe because it was nearly new when the accident occurred), and the car is repaired "to proper specifications". The CarFax is noted accordingly, showing the accident.
At the end of the lease, the car is returned to the dealership. Obviously, the car is now worth much less due to the very serious accident it was in.
Here's the question:
Considering this was a lease return, does Lexus "eat" the depreciation in value (from the accident), or is the lessee somehow held financially responsible for the now much-lower resale value of the car he turned in?
04-27-16, 08:16 AM
#36
Moderator
Thread Starter
Sadly, yes, you're correct. Reminds me of a story....
About 7 years ago I was the used car manager at a Toyota store in NY. I got in a very clean looking, 28K mile 2005 RAV4. Now, normally this would be a home run car for us and we would CPO it.
Except that this car had been cracked in the front. HARD. The entire left front corner of this thing was new; frame rail, inner fender, radiator support, hood, fender, etc. It had also blown its' airbags.
The CARFAX? Clean.
Now, this was structural damage and no way in heck was I CPOing this car or even selling it. I think at the time typical wholesale/trade in was around $12K for it and I think I gave the customer $8500 or 9000 and they were fine with that as it had been clubbed and they knew it. The owner was honest, told us it was in a serious accident that happened when it was almost new and it was just shy of being totaled.
So I sent it to Southern Auto Auction in CT. It crosses the block, I announce Frame/Unibody damage. A guy come up to the podium, asks how the Carfax was, I mention that it's clean...
This thing brings, IMO, stupid money, just shy of $11K.
Buyer? A Toyota store in New England. The underbidder? ANOTHER Toyota store.
2 weeks later I check their website? It's on there as a Toyota Certified Used Vehicle.
About 7 years ago I was the used car manager at a Toyota store in NY. I got in a very clean looking, 28K mile 2005 RAV4. Now, normally this would be a home run car for us and we would CPO it.
Except that this car had been cracked in the front. HARD. The entire left front corner of this thing was new; frame rail, inner fender, radiator support, hood, fender, etc. It had also blown its' airbags.
The CARFAX? Clean.
Now, this was structural damage and no way in heck was I CPOing this car or even selling it. I think at the time typical wholesale/trade in was around $12K for it and I think I gave the customer $8500 or 9000 and they were fine with that as it had been clubbed and they knew it. The owner was honest, told us it was in a serious accident that happened when it was almost new and it was just shy of being totaled.
So I sent it to Southern Auto Auction in CT. It crosses the block, I announce Frame/Unibody damage. A guy come up to the podium, asks how the Carfax was, I mention that it's clean...
This thing brings, IMO, stupid money, just shy of $11K.
Buyer? A Toyota store in New England. The underbidder? ANOTHER Toyota store.
2 weeks later I check their website? It's on there as a Toyota Certified Used Vehicle.
04-27-16, 09:17 AM
#38
Great insight. Very interesting thread.
Here's a question I had always been thinking...
Let's imagine that someone leases a high-end vehicle (like the Lexus LS) for a 3 year term.
Then during the lease, they get into a MAJOR accident, but the car is not totaled (maybe because it was nearly new when the accident occurred), and the car is repaired "to proper specifications". The CarFax is noted accordingly, showing the accident.
At the end of the lease, the car is returned to the dealership. Obviously, the car is now worth much less due to the very serious accident it was in.
Here's the question:
Considering this was a lease return, does Lexus "eat" the depreciation in value (from the accident), or is the lessee somehow held financially responsible for the now much-lower resale value of the car he turned in?
Here's a question I had always been thinking...
Let's imagine that someone leases a high-end vehicle (like the Lexus LS) for a 3 year term.
Then during the lease, they get into a MAJOR accident, but the car is not totaled (maybe because it was nearly new when the accident occurred), and the car is repaired "to proper specifications". The CarFax is noted accordingly, showing the accident.
At the end of the lease, the car is returned to the dealership. Obviously, the car is now worth much less due to the very serious accident it was in.
Here's the question:
Considering this was a lease return, does Lexus "eat" the depreciation in value (from the accident), or is the lessee somehow held financially responsible for the now much-lower resale value of the car he turned in?
As long as it's fixed correctly the lessee doesn't take a hit at all. Funny you mention that... recently had a 2014 LS460L come back with a dirty carfax and a GS350 F-Sport with airbag deployment history (Which wasn't on the Carfax at the time BTW).
At 9:30 this morning I took in a beautiful 2014 ES350 in off lease. 3,886 miles. Also dirty Carfax and airbag deployment history.
None of these people will take the hit.
That ES? Worth $19-20K IMO. Lexus Financial is going to eat it.
04-27-16, 09:25 AM
#39
It amazes me how people will come in, spend $20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70,000 on a used car and worry about an extra set of floor mats more than the history and underlying condition of the car.
I have a pretty serious stamp collection, I won't buy a cover for more than, say, $1,000 without a certificate or the right to get one and yet people never get 3rd party inspections on cars costing exponentially more... I mean we move 100 used cars a month and MAYBE it happens once every 3 months.
04-27-16, 10:02 AM
#40
Moderator
Thread Starter
It depends on the car. After almost 21 years in the business some of the worst screw jobs that I have ever seen have come from private party sales, you have to be very careful to avoid curbstoners as well.
It amazes me how people will come in, spend $20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70,000 on a used car and worry about an extra set of floor mats more than the history and underlying condition of the car.
I have a pretty serious stamp collection, I won't buy a cover for more than, say, $1,000 without a certificate or the right to get one and yet people never get 3rd party inspections on cars costing exponentially more... I mean we move 100 used cars a month and MAYBE it happens once every 3 months.
It amazes me how people will come in, spend $20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70,000 on a used car and worry about an extra set of floor mats more than the history and underlying condition of the car.
I have a pretty serious stamp collection, I won't buy a cover for more than, say, $1,000 without a certificate or the right to get one and yet people never get 3rd party inspections on cars costing exponentially more... I mean we move 100 used cars a month and MAYBE it happens once every 3 months.
04-27-16, 01:22 PM
#41
Pole Position
Sadly, yes, you're correct. Reminds me of a story....
About 7 years ago I was the used car manager at a Toyota store in NY. I got in a very clean looking, 28K mile 2005 RAV4. Now, normally this would be a home run car for us and we would CPO it.
Except that this car had been cracked in the front. HARD. The entire left front corner of this thing was new; frame rail, inner fender, radiator support, hood, fender, etc. It had also blown its' airbags.
The CARFAX? Clean.
About 7 years ago I was the used car manager at a Toyota store in NY. I got in a very clean looking, 28K mile 2005 RAV4. Now, normally this would be a home run car for us and we would CPO it.
Except that this car had been cracked in the front. HARD. The entire left front corner of this thing was new; frame rail, inner fender, radiator support, hood, fender, etc. It had also blown its' airbags.
The CARFAX? Clean.
Does this mean the accident was not reported or it was removed from the Carfax database? I can see how something wasn't reported, but can something be taken off Carfax? What is the use of checking Carfax or Autocheck then, if they are not reliable? It's sobering to know that there is no alternative to the PPI whether buying CPO or from a used car dealer.
04-27-16, 01:37 PM
#42
[QUOTE=comotiger;9464087 It's sobering to know that there is no alternative to the PPI whether buying CPO or from a used car dealer.[/QUOTE]
I can tell from my own experience with previously owned cars. My 2011 GL350 and 2013 GL450 ( Both MB's) were involved in accidents and were fixed at location, which is authorized by my insurance company. When I was selling them and bought a Carfax to attach to my ad - both of carfaxes were showing no accident history.
I can tell from my own experience with previously owned cars. My 2011 GL350 and 2013 GL450 ( Both MB's) were involved in accidents and were fixed at location, which is authorized by my insurance company. When I was selling them and bought a Carfax to attach to my ad - both of carfaxes were showing no accident history.
04-27-16, 05:09 PM
#43
How did you learn of the car's accident history? By checking with the insurance company? But then the accident would have been reported.
Does this mean the accident was not reported or it was removed from the Carfax database? I can see how something wasn't reported, but can something be taken off Carfax? What is the use of checking Carfax or Autocheck then, if they are not reliable? It's sobering to know that there is no alternative to the PPI whether buying CPO or from a used car dealer.
Does this mean the accident was not reported or it was removed from the Carfax database? I can see how something wasn't reported, but can something be taken off Carfax? What is the use of checking Carfax or Autocheck then, if they are not reliable? It's sobering to know that there is no alternative to the PPI whether buying CPO or from a used car dealer.
Why wasn't it on the Carfax report? Myriad of reasons.... Accident might have happened in a jurisdiction that doesn't report to Carfax, might not have been reported to the police, who knows?
Carfax does NOT catch everything! And I've seen plenty of cars with NO paintwork and bad Carfaxes.
Errors can be removed from Carfax reports, I do it all the time (We just sold a CPO'd 450h that my service manager accidentally keyed in at 4,900 miles instead of 9,400 miles.. clerical error) but a legit problem? Nope.
AutoCheck catches more stuff than Carfax anyhow, but people want to see the Carfax.
Carfax is a good tool, but it is just that, a tool. NOTHING is infallible and nothing should replace proper due diligence and running a history report is no substitute for a proper inspection. If people want to take one of my cars to their mechanic, go for it, I have nothing to hide... In fact, when I sell an AS-IS car I encourage it.
04-28-16, 07:26 AM
#44
rld14, thank you very much for contributing to the forum.
Your insider knowledge is invaluable.
Last month I purchased an LS (finally), and out of curiosity, I'm wondering how a professional (like you) would price this vehicle, in the current retail market:
2013 LS460L AWD, Black/Black, under 30K miles, no air suspension (but every other option, including Mark Levinson Audio, Alcantara interior, etc), exterior 9/10, interior 8/10, clean carfax, full dealer service history, and balance of factory warranty.
I did not buy it from a Lexus dealer, thus it wasn't CPO'd, so I'm wondering how you would price it for the retail customer.
Thank you in advance, RLD, for any insight.
Your insider knowledge is invaluable.
Last month I purchased an LS (finally), and out of curiosity, I'm wondering how a professional (like you) would price this vehicle, in the current retail market:
2013 LS460L AWD, Black/Black, under 30K miles, no air suspension (but every other option, including Mark Levinson Audio, Alcantara interior, etc), exterior 9/10, interior 8/10, clean carfax, full dealer service history, and balance of factory warranty.
I did not buy it from a Lexus dealer, thus it wasn't CPO'd, so I'm wondering how you would price it for the retail customer.
Thank you in advance, RLD, for any insight.
04-28-16, 08:59 AM
#45
rld14, thank you very much for contributing to the forum.
Your insider knowledge is invaluable.
Last month I purchased an LS (finally), and out of curiosity, I'm wondering how a professional (like you) would price this vehicle, in the current retail market:
2013 LS460L AWD, Black/Black, under 30K miles, no air suspension (but every other option, including Mark Levinson Audio, Alcantara interior, etc), exterior 9/10, interior 8/10, clean carfax, full dealer service history, and balance of factory warranty.
I did not buy it from a Lexus dealer, thus it wasn't CPO'd, so I'm wondering how you would price it for the retail customer.
Thank you in advance, RLD, for any insight.
Your insider knowledge is invaluable.
Last month I purchased an LS (finally), and out of curiosity, I'm wondering how a professional (like you) would price this vehicle, in the current retail market:
2013 LS460L AWD, Black/Black, under 30K miles, no air suspension (but every other option, including Mark Levinson Audio, Alcantara interior, etc), exterior 9/10, interior 8/10, clean carfax, full dealer service history, and balance of factory warranty.
I did not buy it from a Lexus dealer, thus it wasn't CPO'd, so I'm wondering how you would price it for the retail customer.
Thank you in advance, RLD, for any insight.
Well... I've sold 3 very similar to it in the past month and I'll be happy to share my sale prices.
All were CPO'd and all had the same build as I mentioned above.
1) Black/Black. 34K miles. $51,995
2) Black/Parch. 9800 miles. $55,400
3) Black/Flaxen 27K miles. $52,995
Oddly enough the 2nd one, the Black over Parchment was the one that sat for 50 days. The other two sold very quickly.
So.. no CPO? Well.. I'd figure that car for.. probably.. $50K retail?