CJITTY

Team 4LS,

I was going to just reply on an existing thread discussing CPO, but many are specific to comparing two cars in hopes for the OP to make a decision with the help of our community.

I thought I would post up my thoughts on "Certified Pre Owned" as far as my experience with that program.

Back in the summer of 2012, I sold my first LS to a private buyer. It was a 2007 LS460 that I bought from a local broker in 2010. It was in great shape. Had the bumpers repainted, but most used cars do also. That car never gave me a single issue other than a caliper needing to be replaced.

Then, I bought my 2008 LS600hL from a Lexus dealer in Virginia. Got a great deal on it because it had been on the lot for a long time, but I think there may have been more to the story based on what I learned AFTER I recently sold my 600 as to why the deal was soooo good.

I'll let you check my previous thread for all the details about why I sold my LS600hL here to get all the background https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...rid-story.html

So, after I sold the 600hL, it ended up at Manheim Auction. I was able to actually track the car via my friend who pulled it up with their Manheim account because I was curious how much it was selling for vs how much I sold it for. I got about $4K more than what MMR was showing at auction, so I feel I did very well by selling it.

Once cars go through the Manheim auction, they are thoroughly inspected. I was shocked to learn about what they found on my car during their inspection. Every single panel of the car had been repainted. I didn't see anything noted about structural or frame damage being reported, but it definitely had been repainted entirely! When I bought my car CPO back in 2012, I was tired from a late afternoon flight, having the dealership pick me up at the airport, rushing back to dealer, test drove and finalized paperwork then drove back home that night. I really didn't do my due diligence and have the car thoroughly inspected by a private inspector. Much of that due to me just not thinking it through.

Why no inspection? Simple. I put wayyyyy too much faith in the CPO process. Thinking the car was CPO, I was covered and the car really didn't have a crazy life before me. Admittedly, I don't know exactly everything that disqualifies a car from being CPO worth or not other than mileage and years old.

So back to the inspection, I was very disappointed that the car had been repainted prior to me buying it and not being told about it. But then again, I didn't ask. I just didn't know what to look for. I know for sure I had my bumpers repainted to install the Vertex front and rear lip kit, but bumper paint isn't a big deal and that is the only paint work I have done while owning the car. Perhaps the car had a ton of scratches from a crazy ex-lover or someone who didn't like hybrids with the prior owner but who knows. But I don't believe a complete paint job of a car of this level at 4 years old is normal by any means.

Fast forward to my recent purchase this month of my "new to me" 2012 LS460L. With lessons learned from my 600 experience, I hired a private inspector who is trained in not only electrical and mechanical, but paint/body/frame experience as well. He went out to inspect my car prior to purchase and spent about 1.5 hours with it. Long test drive to test every feature, listening for sounds, abnormal vibrations etc. Bumper to bumper inspected every panel in multiple areas for any sign of paint/body work, frame, flood, electrical or any other kind of potential issue. He checked underneath the car and noted everything from slight scratches underneath front air dam, slight curb damage on wheel and even noted excess lint in the rear armrests and a couple windshield pits..in other words, extremely thorough with high res photos and it came back in excellent condition.

What's the point of this thread. I don't care what dealership, broker or private seller you buy your next car from, but spend the $150 to $200 to have a full independent inspection prior to buying something. Had I known all that work was done on my 600, I would of either asked for even more money off, or walked away from it altogether. Luckily, it worked in my favor for the most part and I didn't end up losing money, but I would have if I kept it longer than I did or sold it to someone that actually would of had it inspected first.

CPO is all marketing in my opinion. It feels good to know you have a car that has supposedly been checked thoroughly, but in reality its probably a pencil whip report. When I bought the CPO 600, I realized 2 hours in that the radar cruise was faulty and there was some leaves inside my blower motor causing noise at high fan speeds. So, had to get that fixed once I got back to GA. Again, a true CPO pre inspection prior to them selling it would of caught that, so I'm sure it was a pencil whip on the CPO inspection.


As far as my new 460L, I paid about $8K less for my current 460L via private seller than most 2012 460L's on dealer lots right now and my car checked out cleaner than some of those did, history wise and I couldn't be happier. I have an extended warranty which gives me piece of mind, but I will never trust the term CPO at face value anymore and learned a very powerful lesson with all of this...

Trust but VERIFY!!

aeggroup

There is no the best rule of buying a car. Sometimes CPO deal is better, sometimes not. The same applies to a private owner.
You can easily check if a car was painted by yourself using simple Crash check car paint coating thickness tested Gauge, which sold on Ebay for about $50. Mechanically - any shop will lift a car up and tell you what is under. You can't look into the engine and transmission, so chances are the same Dealer/owner.
I have an access to Manheim and know the prices. I just bought 2010 CPO for $29K, 53K miles. My car per Manheim's MMR report would cost about $25K-$26K and this is average. There were not many cars sold this year, so perfect condition car with ML sound, Convinience Package ( Or whatever its called) and 19" wheels would probably cost a little more. Plus when you get it from an auction - you have to pay $400 auction fee and about $500 to a dealer, who takes you there. So I would pay totally about $27K for a car, which I could not test drive and check and would not have any warranty. So buying from dealer, CPO with warranty for 2 years and next 4 free maintenance services is no brainer in my case.
In general - if you know something about cars and know how to check it - you can always find a good deal.

Enjoy your car.

caha14

CJITTY, first of all, congratulations on your new machine - looking great!

You are spot on in your observations, and FWIW, this is consistent with what I've always believed about CPO: a good used car will continue to be good after CPO, and a crappy one will not necessarily be transformed into a good one. It ultimately boils down to the specific vehicle and individual dealerships.

This is where I have been historically disappointed with CPO vehicles, not just with Lexus, but also with other manufacturers. Yes, there are some "standards" (e.g., I believe no more than 3 or 4 panels can be repainted), but evidently, some dealerships get away with much more, and manufacturers look the other way as long as they get their $995 (cost for Lexus dealers to certify). I've seen CPO cars with bald tires, bad touch-up paint jobs, hanging bumpers, filthy interiors, and more, but your 600 story takes the cake (and catches me by surprise).

I could go on, but bottom line, I - too - am happy things played out as they ultimately did for you, especially in light of your discovery. My 600 is CPO, and that's because the terms were right; my 460L, OTOH, was not CPO, and I just extended the warranty. Otherwise, I am with you: CPO is not the panacea, and for a good car (that is priced right), the benefit is ultimately the extended warranty.

Thank you for this, and all the best with the new car! We'll need to retrofit that fourth button...

dlbuckls10

To many tricks to the trade and you never know even with a CPO.

R Z

Spot on! A lot of these cars have been damaged and the sellers know it. It seems they are getting braver and braver hiding the truth. Happened to me. Bought my 08 from a Toyota dealership. They said they did their own inspection and replaced tires, oil change, checked the car top to bottom and even replaced the back bumper. I figured a Toyota dealership could be trusted. Far from the truth. Found some interesting pock marks on the passenger back side. Come to find out, something happened to that back side. Could have been many things, but it wasn't disclosed. I had it repaired and the dealership paid half. It's still not perfect, but looks 100% better. I love my car and it really drives fantastic. Drives straight and smooth. That's really what's important. I guess since there was no reported damage, the car officially hasn't been damaged. Who I am I differ.

CJITTY

Thank you!! I do have some thoughts on that 4th button. ..that is hilarious.

Chuckinnj

Great info!
I looked at CPO LS's for months and saw a lot of crappy, repainted, worn interior LS460's until I swung by a NJ dealership and saw the one I purchased. I always took my fold up mat creeper along with me so I could lay down and look at the bottom sides to look for any obvious damage and I use a paint meter for detailing so I always took it with me on my search (this has been posted on other replies by me) and the salesman was always taken back by my "mistrust" of a car being a CPO with a clean car fax. When I talked to the dealer where I purchased my CPO he explained the car gets a look for dealer service records then they use a paint meter and if anything fails the car goes to auction. I highly suggest investing in a paint meter for your search (then sell it once you buy the car) and ask to view the records on what was done to the car and if you are NOT experienced on what to look for spend the money for an inspection especially on these high end cars. The main thing with a dealer is that they want to sell you a car and will say anything to close the deal....... So buyer beware! A CPO is a slick marketing maneuver for the trusting buyer from any auto manufacturer.
My personal opinion is that a CPO is with the extra money but always see what has been done to the car and always ASK ALOT of QUESTIONS! These are great cars but they are costly to repair if something goes wrong. There are NOT a lot clean of LS460's on the market and when you find one it will jump out at you so take your time.
I had a very good friend who sold pre-owned high end cars that he purchased from the Manheim Auction and he swore to the potential buyer that they were one owner, always maintained, cream puffs and people believed him because he was a slick, silver tongued salesman who did a quick detail on the car to make it shiney and offered a third party BS warranty that only covered the power train.

Doublebase

I always feel the best bet is to buy it from a private party, with the contingency of allowing the car to be inspected before it's bought.

I have to laugh when I see CPO or I watch those Carmax commercials where they brag about their vigorous safety inspection, performed by trained technicians. It's about money...making as much of it as humanely possible. They could care less about anything else. If anyone has not noticed, they charge more for CPO cars, why do you think that is? Because they want to sell you a better car? Or because they have easily found a way to fool customers into thinking they are getting something better? They're selling piece of mind, not a better vehicle, and people are buying it.

Here's what they'll most likely do to a used Lexus that was traded in at a dealer. They'll put it on the lift...check the tires, pull the wheels, check the brakes, top off the fluids, change the oil (no synthetic), inspect underneath with a flashlight...and then any repairs that need to be done will involve a conversation with the sales manager. And I've seen these guys in action. Most techs realize what they're gettin into when they have to do these "inspections". They realize anything they find won't be welcomed with open arms..they realize they may be wasting their time finding much of anything at all...and in some places anything they find could be repaired at a reduced labor rate. So I ask you, why would they dig deep? Now if it was a customer's vehicle coming in for service? Different story. Totally different. You should see some of the things I've witnessed after these inspections.

Nospinzone

To every post so far. From everything I've read in this thread and in several other threads, a CPO isn't worth what Vice President John Garner said about the Vice Presidency, "it ain't worth a bucket of spit", or as he originally was reputed to say "****".

There's no substitute for a competent PPI.

sdwtchlvr

iTrader: (1)

Maybe I'm a different breed but for me the CPO value comes in the 3 year bumper to bumper warranty you get buying CPO. I don't expect the dealer to know the entire history of the vehicle. And even if they did know some less than flattering info, if they couldn't repair it to pass "their" tests then they wouldn't certify it. Check their CPO list. That's what they're obligated and held to.

It's seldom that Lexus will certify a vehicle that hasn't been under their warranty for its life up until they certify it. But dealers love to brag about all the work and $$$ they put into cars to certify them. Cosmetic stuff is all part of the process. With that said, I haven't read all of the stuff that you experienced with your 600.

caha14

You are right in principle. However, this is precisely a huge part of the problem. Some dealerships will check-off boxes irrespective of what the actual condition of the vehicle is, and as far as I can see, they are not "held to" anything by the manufacturer (despite what printed marketing materials may suggest).

About a decade ago, I was helping a neighbor buy a car. We looked at an RX at a Lexus dealership in CT. The tires were noticeably worn way past their limit. The salesman's response was to show me the CPO report indicating that the tires had passed inspection. I proceeded to put a penny in the treads and explain that to him, and we were immediately offered a tire replacement. No thanks...

If the car is good and priced right, you're right: CPO is about the warranty. Otherwise, I am personally a fan of finding the best car under 4/50 warranty and buying a Platinum VSA for another 4 years.

Stereorob

I work at a dealership and although other places may half-*** CPO cars, mine doesn't. they really do the 160 point inspection, we have the car under testing for almost a week. every single inch of the car is gone over with a fine toothed comb. if there is anything, and I mean ANYTHING funny about the car they will not certify it.

hell, when you buy CPO, you get the better deal! much less than original price, plus you get all the services a new lexus owner gets and a warranty with more miles! tough to beat that!

Stereorob

I work at a dealership and although other places may half-*** CPO cars, mine doesn't. they really do the 160 point inspection, we have the car under testing for almost a week. every single inch of the car is gone over with a fine toothed comb. if there is anything, and I mean ANYTHING funny about the car they will not certify it.

hell, when you buy CPO, you get the better deal! much less than original price, plus you get all the services a new lexus owner gets and a warranty with more miles! tough to beat that

Doublebase

I think you hit the nail right on the head...if there is anything wrong with the car they will not CPO it. Instead they will sell it or send it to the auction, but they won't put the work in and call it a CPO. It's a financial decision.

However if they get their hands on a nice vehicle, they grab it and stamp it a CPO...and then add another $3,000-$4,000 to the cost. Meanwhile if you look around you can find a car through a private seller that is also in excellent condition, you just won't be paying a CPO premium to get it. And for every dealer that may do it "the right way", there are hundreds that won't. It's about money, nothing else and I understand that completely. I understand this is not a charity, this is business, people need to get paid accordingly...I'm fine with it.

My wife came home the other day complaining about how her coworker got "screwed" at a "car place" because they charged her $68 bucks for a synthetic oil change and $700 for pads and rotors all around. Well that's what it costs! Do they think people that work at these places are going to work for free? Or the owner went in business for charitable reasons and his health? People need to make money. My wife is a nurse...I wonder what her place charges the insurance company for a cat scan or an MRI? Or a physical? Please.

caha14

No argument there; I've personally seen cars being certified at the dealership where I service, and they are pretty thorough. The point, however, is that despite the printed standards, individual dealers can and will do whatever the heck they want with no apparent repercussions when they choose to cut corners or be sneaky. So, it all comes back not to buying CPO vs. non-CPO, but to finding ethical (and thorough) vs. ethically-challenged/corner-cutter dealerships.