jainla

I think CPO cars are allowed to have 2 panels damaged. This could be a scratch or serious damage; I would check and see if they replaced the door skins. Or someone could have bounced a seriously high curb.

At 50K I'm guessing this car will be around a little while. There is a black hybrid at OC Autohaus for 48k that's been on the market for over a year; not sure why it hasn't sold.

The higher price and warranty will help you here as many of these cars are shipped overseas. The guy at LSM told me if they get a car with the exec seating package they can count on one hand the hours before the asian car brokers call. However the warranty (and the extra cost) would be worthless to an overseas customer.

orys

Help me get clarity on this: what's the logic behind spending 52k on a 5 year old car? How will it compare in value in 5 years vs a brand new GS350? Which will depreciate more? Logic tells me the LS will depreciate far less but the recent value of the 2008 ls600hl might prove otherwise...

SW17LS

The depreciation is a little bit of a wildcard compared to a new GS350 because the 600 is a hybrid, but if you compared a user LS460 to a new GS, the GS would depreciate more.

Whats the logic? Its a much better car than a new GS350. Thats the tradeoff, yeah the GS is new but the LS is way more car.

riknchar

When I bought my LS600hL (CPO, 58K miles, for $42K) in June of 2014, I considered a similar dilemma... I could have bought a fully loaded ES350 Ultra Luxury for about the same price. I wondered whether a new ES350 would depreciate more or less than a 2008 LS600hL, and in the end concluded that most of the depreciation had been absorbed by the LS already, so it would likely hold more value over time than the new ES350. My friends all thought I was totally nuts to choose a 6-year old car over a brand new ES350, but I was really smitten by the "flagship of flagships," so I went the LS600hL route.

I just checked KBB today to see how things have gone over the past 2 years. Per KBB, a 2014 ES350 (with 15K miles) is worth 30K (Retail) and $25K (Trade In) today. A 2008 LS600hL (with 73K miles) is worth $31K (Retail) and $26K (Trade-In).

So basically, the depreciation between a brand new ES350 and a 6 year old LS600hL has been roughly equal over the past 2 years.

So am I happy with my decision to go with the used LS over the new ES? YES!!! The LS has been amazing, with tons more refinement, power, and smoothness than the ES350. And I have had zero out-of-pocket repair costs for my LS600 (and I still have 4 more years of CPO/Extended CPO warranty). And I really do think the LS600hL must be nearing the end of its dramatic depreciation curve, with depreciation over the next 3-4 years slowing quite a bit.

My personal view is that a used, well-cared for LS600hL offers a tremendous value right now.

Good luck!

R Z

There's nothing in the Lexus line (and most other lines as well), as nice as the 460/600. That's why Lexus calls it their flagship. Nothing against any other vehicle made, but for my money, I love the lap of luxury. If I wanted a smaller runabout car, it would be some two seater convertible. The GS and ES models have their niche and I've driven both. No comparison period end of story. Love my LS460 24/7. Bingo!

orys

Interesting... So what I take from your story is that the LS600 depreciated as fast and as much as a new car, even tough it was 6 years old. That makes the LS600 I am looking at a bad purchase financially as it would continue to depreciate just like a new car would.... Please tell me I am wrong because I still want this car....

riknchar

Orys, Yes, it's true that in my case, my 2008 LS600hL did depreciate at roughly the same rate that a brand new ES350 would have over the past 2 years. However, the real point of my story was that even though the depreciation was new-car like, the overall ownership experience of the LS600hL was significantly better (in my opinion) than that of a ES350 (after all, I've been able to drive the "flagship of flagships" for the past 2 years, with no repair costs to worry about). I also sincerely believe that I've reached (or nearly reached) the bottom of the depreciation curve, and I don't anticipate additional rapid depreciation over the next 4 years (I plan to keep the car for 4 more years, until my Extended CPO warranty expires).

So I'm saying that there may not be a big depreciation advantage for you to buy the used LS600, but you'll be extremely happy with the car itself. And on the bright side, there doesn't seem to be a depreciation DIS-advantage to owning the used LS over a new ES or GS...

If you have your heart set on the LS, I say go for it! If you don't, you'll likely regret it and eventually move up anyway. Good luck!

orys

Update: Just test drove car again with wife. Wife approves of it but now I am getting cold feet. Noticed that the hybrid motor doesn't really kick in that much, just in 5 mph and at a stop - the engine takes over right away (AC was on). Is this normal? i assume the battery is still good with only 20K but it is still a 5 year old car. Auto those who own an LS600, could you tell me when does the V8 kick in, or how long car you drive in hybrid mode?

jainla

A lot of it depends on how long you are driving the car. For at least the first 15 minutes the engine will run constantly because the emissions system is heating up. Once the hybrid system is at complete operating temperature (and the battery is charged) you'll start to see the V8 cut out more.

Since it seems like you're in LA I'll give you an example. I leave Santa Monica in the morning; during the 5 minute drive to the freeway the V8 is on all the time. I get on the 10 freeway and exit the 105 south of LAX. By this point, as I go below 40 mph on the off-ramp and come to a stop the V8 will cut off. At this point; anything more than a gentle press on the gas will light the V8; but easing off below 40 mph will cause it to cut off. It also stops at almost every stoplight or stop sign. At this point depending on how steep the grade is and how much juice is left i can go quite some distance on electric alone; and even accelerate a little.

The LSh is a heavy car and the battery pack isn't really sized to move it like a Tesla or a Plug in; so you won't be doing a lot of all-electric driving. But when the car is stopped, coasting or holding a steady speed below 42mph the V8 should cut out once all is awake and happy; although sometimes (oddly) doing the reverse commute the V8 will stay on after I get off the freeway and almost all the way home. Although this is usually later at night with less traffic and higher speeds; so something may be cooling off. I find I can only really predict with about 70% certainty when the V8 will cut out.

Driving the car is actually the best way to charge the battery; using in all electric mode and then relying on the V8 to recharge the battery seems to worsen the mileage. Usually I will accelerate strongly to about 40mph then ease off; and as the car slows slightly the V8 will cut out. Then I brake very gently to maximize the regen braking and recapture as much of the energy as I can. This way the engine is doing what it does best (move the car) and the regen system is doing what it does best (recapturing energy that would otherwise be lost as heat).

I never expected to be hypermiling a 5400lb 438hp car but there it is.

It's not a car it's a physics experiment!

riknchar

My experience on my 2008 LS600 is similar to Jainla's (sans the "hypermiling"). When cold, the V8 runs continuously. When warmed up, the engine will shut down anytime I'm coasting below 40 mph or stopped at a light. Most of the time, it's tough to know whether the engine is running or not unless I glance at the Tach; the car is pretty silent whether the engine is running or not.

Sounds like your experience in the test drive is consistent with how the car was designed to operate, and I'm sure the batteries of the car are just fine at that age/mileage. The electric motors are really there to simply give the car a bit more silent torque, to be more "V12-like," and not so much for the fuel economy benefits (although the mileage in town is much better than the LS460).

orys

Good to know!
Now it's just a matter of making my mind up.... still hard to swallow spending 50K on a 5 year old car... having said that, there is pretty much nothing else at that price I would prefer. I had a loaded ES350 as a loaner the other day and was impressed with it for a FWD car, it's no LS but well designed. I must be getting old...

riknchar

Looks like the car you were agonizing over has been sold -- was it to you?

orys

No it is still there.... Just drove again it last night.

caha14

Still there indeed, according to the dealership's website, though it's gone from the CPO link that was posted earlier in this thread.

As for the behavior you noticed, as others pointed out, nothing strikes me as abnormal. What I would add, based on operation in all four seasons, is that the "brain" in this car is fairly sophisticated, and sometimes the 5.0 will come on/shut off when you wouldn't necessarily expect it.

Engine temperature absolutely plays a huge role as does battery level (per your display). What you, as a driver, cannot see, though, is everything else the ECU is watching, such as ambient temperature (e.g., the 5.0 will come on to keep coolant warm in the cold [not applicable to you yesterday, but an example]), loads on the system (e.g., climate control - I've seen the car react to seemingly-similar operating conditions in different ways, presumably based on some measurement of load), anticipated drain rates based on these loads, and other factors.

Recently, after leaving my car parked for a while, I noticed that my battery level had not moved at all (a good thing, I thought). However (and quite interestingly), after driving for a while, I noticed the "sequence" seemed off: the 5.0 kept running, yet the batteries kept on draining! Given recent discussions on here, this worried me, to say the least. Well, eventually, the batteries charged up again, and the sequence went back to "normal".

My conclusion was that this is likely a feature to cycle the batteries to extend their life. Like this, there are more examples I've observed over time, but the main point is that there is a heck of a lot more going on than meets the eye. Even though battery failure is expected at some point, premature failure is not. Their track record is pretty solid in that respect.

islandbeef

Flagship = more rear leg room
and my kids are getting taller
That's why you see me around here so much while I still own a GS.