How much does full tank cost and how many KM do you get per tank?
11-15-15, 08:09 AM
#31
Funny how this discussions migrate from thread to thread. For some reason most of you think that premium is the holy grail of gas and engine savior. If you think that by using premium fuel engine doesn't pull timing think again. The difference is how much timing is adjusted and for how long, which is mostly depends on style of driving and outside temperature.
I've run with live scanner and this is what I've seen using premium gas:
Taking off from red light when car spends 4-5 seconds in WOT and outside temperature over 80 F I've seen timing pulled between 4-11 degrees and for 2-3 seconds with temperatures below 70 F results are slightly better. Using 87 grade fuel I'd see greater adjustments 6-18 degrees for same period of time. When I drove like grandma and did not floor it I didn't see any timing pulled with ether premium or regular with temperatures below 70F.
Engine also pulls timing when RPMs reach over 5K regardless of fuel type
I've run with live scanner and this is what I've seen using premium gas:
Taking off from red light when car spends 4-5 seconds in WOT and outside temperature over 80 F I've seen timing pulled between 4-11 degrees and for 2-3 seconds with temperatures below 70 F results are slightly better. Using 87 grade fuel I'd see greater adjustments 6-18 degrees for same period of time. When I drove like grandma and did not floor it I didn't see any timing pulled with ether premium or regular with temperatures below 70F.
Engine also pulls timing when RPMs reach over 5K regardless of fuel type
11-15-15, 08:38 AM
#32
Lexus Fanatic
When you spend a lot of money on a vehicle, and you want to enjoy it at its best and make it last as long as it can, simply following the manufacturers recommended fueling and maintenance schedules and criteria for fuel and fluids is the best way to do that. Why try and reinvent the wheel to save a few dollars now when the only way you'll know if ignoring the manufacturer's recommendations will cause an issue is when it has already caused a costly issue? And all the while you're not getting the best performance out of the vehicle...
If I wanted to save every dollar I could, I'd be driving a small economy car. If I wanted a full size luxury experience while still having a vehicle with an inexpensive downmarket powertrain and components, I'd still be driving the ES...and thats why I drove the ES for years...but I chose the LS because I want to drive the best Lexus has to offer and experience the best ride and drive I can...so why would I cheap out now and put the wrong fuel in the car?
11-15-15, 09:39 AM
#33
Funny how this discussions migrate from thread to thread. For some reason most of you think that premium is the holy grail of gas and engine savior. If you think that by using premium fuel engine doesn't pull timing think again. The difference is how much timing is adjusted and for how long, which is mostly depends on style of driving and outside temperature.
I've run with live scanner and this is what I've seen using premium gas:
Taking off from red light when car spends 4-5 seconds in WOT and outside temperature over 80 F I've seen timing pulled between 4-11 degrees and for 2-3 seconds with temperatures below 70 F results are slightly better. Using 87 grade fuel I'd see greater adjustments 6-18 degrees for same period of time. When I drove like grandma and did not floor it I didn't see any timing pulled with ether premium or regular with temperatures below 70F.
Engine also pulls timing when RPMs reach over 5K regardless of fuel type
I've run with live scanner and this is what I've seen using premium gas:
Taking off from red light when car spends 4-5 seconds in WOT and outside temperature over 80 F I've seen timing pulled between 4-11 degrees and for 2-3 seconds with temperatures below 70 F results are slightly better. Using 87 grade fuel I'd see greater adjustments 6-18 degrees for same period of time. When I drove like grandma and did not floor it I didn't see any timing pulled with ether premium or regular with temperatures below 70F.
Engine also pulls timing when RPMs reach over 5K regardless of fuel type
I have no problem using 87 octane, in fact I use it in my other car that calls for it. If I owned that Silver Corvette that was used as an example or the Hyundai Equus I would probably use 87 octane in those cars because the manufactures say it's perfectly fine to run it.
Until Toyota says I can safely run 87 I'm not going to do so.
If others feel the manufacture is wrong then by all means take your chances and save a few pennies but when your engine starts becoming noisy because of loose tolerances by repeated knock don't blame the manufacture.
Last edited by Devh; 11-15-15 at 11:13 AM.
11-15-15, 10:08 AM
#34
Having more then the recommended octane will not yield more power and in fact it may yield less efficiency and more emissions.
I think those that want to save few pennies could fill up half the tank with mid grade and the other half with 93 to be optimum.
11-15-15, 11:24 AM
#35
Driver
Thread Starter
They are professional journalists, not professional engineers. I would not expect a journalist who is not an auto journalist to understand how engines work. I do expect the professional engineers at Toyota to understand how engines work (and, judging by the reliability of their engines, they do). The engineers at Toyota are the ones telling me to use "PREMIUM FUEL ONLY," as it says on the gas cap, the dashboard, and the manual, for my LS460. I think there is a reason they did that, especially since many of the other cars they make say "PREMIUM FUEL RECOMMENDED" or that regular is OK.
And there is a perfectly believable reason the Toyota engineers specified premium only. 380 hp out of a 4.6L V8 is relatively high specific output, especially for an engine designed to be quiet, tractable at low rpm, and very long-lasting. The engineers got the desired output by using high compression, free breathing, and aggressive timing. We know the engine pulls timing if you use 87; posters here have documented that using scan tools. If timing is being pulled, that means there's detonation, even if it's subtle detonation you can't hear. I don't want any more detonation than necessary, because it's very hard on engine components. Yes, there may be a little bit even with premium in hot and humid weather, but why have more than necessary?
If you want to shorten engine life of your own car, be my guest. On my car, that I paid a lot of money to buy, I don't want to.
And there is a perfectly believable reason the Toyota engineers specified premium only. 380 hp out of a 4.6L V8 is relatively high specific output, especially for an engine designed to be quiet, tractable at low rpm, and very long-lasting. The engineers got the desired output by using high compression, free breathing, and aggressive timing. We know the engine pulls timing if you use 87; posters here have documented that using scan tools. If timing is being pulled, that means there's detonation, even if it's subtle detonation you can't hear. I don't want any more detonation than necessary, because it's very hard on engine components. Yes, there may be a little bit even with premium in hot and humid weather, but why have more than necessary?
If you want to shorten engine life of your own car, be my guest. On my car, that I paid a lot of money to buy, I don't want to.
again, another person who isn't reading my post properly. I never said the journalists are professionals, I'm talking about the people they interviewed and took advice from. Those guys were teachers for 20+ years and another was also a teacher. That is an expert to me.
So let me ask you something, if toyota recommended you to put squirrels inside of where you pump gas into the car, will you do it?
Well why not? The manufacturer recommended it, so why not? You people don't understand that all of these car manufacturers are engaged in intercourse with oil producers and that's where nothing can be moved because you guys are still living in your tiny Cinderella happy ending world. Of course toyota and other manufacturers are going to recommend and say premium only.
heres an example for you; i drive an es350 2008, lexus says premium unleaded is a REQUIREMENT. however, tell me how the same engine lexus has in this es350 is the same one in a toyota camry but on the toyota camry they don't say premium is a requirement?
11-15-15, 11:29 AM
#36
Driver
Thread Starter
Your issue is you don't actually understand what the news piece you posted is saying. They are not saying that premium is a scam in vehicles that require premium...in fact they say the exact opposite. They are talking about running premium in a vehicle that is designed to run regular, and in that they are right.
Like Dev said, why would CBC being a "billion dollar company" mean anything? Toyota is +/- the worlds largest automaker, but you clearly don't trust them, why would you trust CBC?
If you aren't prepared to pay a little extra for premium I would suggest that you're better off to stay in the ES rather than upgrade to the LS.
Like Dev said, why would CBC being a "billion dollar company" mean anything? Toyota is +/- the worlds largest automaker, but you clearly don't trust them, why would you trust CBC?
If you aren't prepared to pay a little extra for premium I would suggest that you're better off to stay in the ES rather than upgrade to the LS.
again, lets go back to my stapler argument then. i'm a salesman and i am trying to sell you a stapler with cool lights and a cool gadget on it that will clean your paper as you staple it, and has a lower compression rate so it won't damage your paper as much as your $6.99 stapler. mine costs $8.50 but i tell you that your stapler is just as good and will do the same thing, but i recommend you use mine. Will you buy it? well why not? it's only $1.51 more?
i trust CBC marketplace series because i've watched them for a while and they always do great exposee documentaries. go watch others they have made. they've made them on where "premium" orange juice really comes from, and others as well.
11-15-15, 11:32 AM
#37
Driver
Thread Starter
I have not only monitored and logged data on other cars I have also tuned a car that I own. It is a given that timing advances and retards during normal driving on every car and it's not just about knock it's also for fuel efficiency, power and emissions. It's a dynamic process that requires a large depth of knowledge. For example advancing timing does not always equate to more power even in the absence of knock.. In many cases pulling some timing can yield more power and that is why tuners worth their salt know what they are doing. The engineers that program these cars tune the engine dynamically within it's adjustment range. When you go outside the range it may run out of adjustment or not be able to react fast enough to correct for it. If the system was fool proof then the car would go into limp mode in the presence of audible knock but it doesn't and therefore allows the engine to get damaged especially in the presence of inaudible knock. Knock sensors are not perfect and they have a hard time distinguishing between real and false knock. Tuners will often hook up an audio jack to the knock sensor and listen for real knock using headphones instead of depending on the knock sensor.
I have no problem using 87 octane, in fact I use it in my other car that calls for it. If I owned that Silver Corvette that was used as an example or the Hyundai Equus I would probably use 87 octane in those cars because the manufactures say it's perfectly fine to run it.
Until Toyota says I can safely run 87 I'm not going to do so.
If others feel the manufacture is wrong then by all means take your chances and save a few pennies but when your engine starts becoming noisy because of loose tolerances by repeated knock don't blame the manufacture.
I have no problem using 87 octane, in fact I use it in my other car that calls for it. If I owned that Silver Corvette that was used as an example or the Hyundai Equus I would probably use 87 octane in those cars because the manufactures say it's perfectly fine to run it.
Until Toyota says I can safely run 87 I'm not going to do so.
If others feel the manufacture is wrong then by all means take your chances and save a few pennies but when your engine starts becoming noisy because of loose tolerances by repeated knock don't blame the manufacture.
If a porsche can run 87 perfectly fine, do you really think a lexus can't? Are you trying to say a lexus is higher than a porsche?
what you guys don't understand is that there are thousands of places in the world where they don't have access to premium fuel, they only have regular 87. you think vehicle manufacturer's are so stupid that they won't keep these people in mind when they make the cars?
porsche came out and said it publicy which was a surprise so theres your proof
11-15-15, 11:50 AM
#38
Lexus Fanatic
You people don't understand that all of these car manufacturers are engaged in intercourse with oil producers and that's where nothing can be moved because you guys are still living in your tiny Cinderella happy ending world. Of course toyota and other manufacturers are going to recommend and say premium only.
That line of thinking is impossible to argue with though, because you can't have a logical argument when the other side's line of thinking is not logical.
heres an example for you; i drive an es350 2008, lexus says premium unleaded is a REQUIREMENT. however, tell me how the same engine lexus has in this es350 is the same one in a toyota camry but on the toyota camry they don't say premium is a requirement?
In 2011 they changed the requirement for the ES to regular, and also reduced the advertised HP to 268.
But, Lexus did that for the ES...but not for the LS. Why? If you say it was because they were in bed with oil companies that makes no sense, the ES sells at a volume roughly 8-10 times that of the LS.
theres no need to resort to childish insults
again, lets go back to my stapler argument then. i'm a salesman and i am trying to sell you a stapler with cool lights and a cool gadget on it that will clean your paper as you staple it, and has a lower compression rate so it won't damage your paper as much as your $6.99 stapler. mine costs $8.50 but i tell you that your stapler is just as good and will do the same thing, but i recommend you use mine. Will you buy it? well why not? it's only $1.51 more?
To put it in the scope of your stapler argument, lets say company A makes staplers, and company B makes staples. For the sake of argument, lets say company A does not also make staples.
If I buy a really high quality electronic stapler from Company A, pay a premium for it over cheaper staplers. If Company A says I have to use a higher grade of staples otherwise it may damage my stapler or it may keep my stapler from performing as well as it can, then yeah...I'm going to use the better staples...because I bought a premium stapler.
If Company B tries to sell me some staples that are more than what Company A recommends. I would defer to the recommendation of Company A because they manufactured my stapler.
Make sense?
If a porsche can run 87 perfectly fine, do you really think a lexus can't? Are you trying to say a lexus is higher than a porsche?
Its not about one carmaker being "higher" than the other, its about every carmaker having their own design and engineering protocols, and seeing that I chose to purchase a Lexus...I will do what they say I need to do to maintain my car.
At the crux of this also is the fact that this is the LS forum...you do not have an LS. Your experience with your ES needs to be shared with the folks in the ES forum...it doesn't apply to the LS.
Last edited by SW17LS; 11-15-15 at 11:53 AM.
11-15-15, 11:57 AM
#39
again, another person who isn't reading my post properly. I never said the journalists are professionals, I'm talking about the people they interviewed and took advice from. Those guys were teachers for 20+ years and another was also a teacher. That is an expert to me.
So let me ask you something, if toyota recommended you to put squirrels inside of where you pump gas into the car, will you do it?
Well why not? The manufacturer recommended it, so why not? You people don't understand that all of these car manufacturers are engaged in intercourse with oil producers and that's where nothing can be moved because you guys are still living in your tiny Cinderella happy ending world. Of course toyota and other manufacturers are going to recommend and say premium only.
heres an example for you; i drive an es350 2008, lexus says premium unleaded is a REQUIREMENT. however, tell me how the same engine lexus has in this es350 is the same one in a toyota camry but on the toyota camry they don't say premium is a requirement?
So let me ask you something, if toyota recommended you to put squirrels inside of where you pump gas into the car, will you do it?
Well why not? The manufacturer recommended it, so why not? You people don't understand that all of these car manufacturers are engaged in intercourse with oil producers and that's where nothing can be moved because you guys are still living in your tiny Cinderella happy ending world. Of course toyota and other manufacturers are going to recommend and say premium only.
heres an example for you; i drive an es350 2008, lexus says premium unleaded is a REQUIREMENT. however, tell me how the same engine lexus has in this es350 is the same one in a toyota camry but on the toyota camry they don't say premium is a requirement?
By ignoring the fact that you lied how can you hold any credibility in this discussion. You sir have been discredited. This is not a childish attack, it's a fact that should stand up to any scrutiny.
Last edited by Devh; 11-15-15 at 12:04 PM.
11-15-15, 12:52 PM
#40
Driver
Thread Starter
Thats a ludicrous argument.
This is why arguing with you is pointless, because you believe this "conspiracy". I think Toyota does pretty well building and selling cars, I don't see that they would have a lot to gain by "colluding" with oil companies to recommend premium over regular fuel in one fairly low volume model. Why not recommend premium in everything? All Lexus volume products now recommend regular, their "oil buddies" must be pretty pissed huh?
That line of thinking is impossible to argue with though, because you can't have a logical argument when the other side's line of thinking is not logical.
The answer is, you can run Regular. In fact...Lexus came out and said you could run regular at a reduced power output for that model. The ES350 your year is advertised as having 272HP, the Camry that year is advertised as having 268HP. The engine runs differently on regular and premium. In order to be able to get the advertised 272HP premium was required.
In 2011 they changed the requirement for the ES to regular, and also reduced the advertised HP to 268.
But, Lexus did that for the ES...but not for the LS. Why? If you say it was because they were in bed with oil companies that makes no sense, the ES sells at a volume roughly 8-10 times that of the LS.
I'm not insulting you at all, but what you are saying that news piece is saying and what its actually saying are not the same, ergo you don't understand what the news piece is actually saying. Its not insulting to not understand something...there are many things I do not understand.
This is a silly argument, but it highlights the flaws in your logic here. I'm not being sold premium fuel from the fuel company. I'm using premium fuel because the manufacturer of my vehicle says to use premium fuel in my particular vehicle. The fuel company can try and sell me whatever they want...I ignore them and use what the manufacturer of my vehicle says I need to use. This argument is predicated on the stapler company selling me some additional thing that is going to do something for me, and thats not what is happening here. Lexus/Toyota does not make or sell fuel.
To put it in the scope of your stapler argument, lets say company A makes staplers, and company B makes staples. For the sake of argument, lets say company A does not also make staples.
If I buy a really high quality electronic stapler from Company A, pay a premium for it over cheaper staplers. If Company A says I have to use a higher grade of staples otherwise it may damage my stapler or it may keep my stapler from performing as well as it can, then yeah...I'm going to use the better staples...because I bought a premium stapler.
If Company B tries to sell me some staples that are more than what Company A recommends. I would defer to the recommendation of Company A because they manufactured my stapler.
Make sense?
I still have not seen where Porsche says this, but the answer is that works for Porsche, I did not buy a Porsche...I bought a Lexus and I use what Lexus recommends. If I bought a Porsche, I would use what Porsche recommends.
Its not about one carmaker being "higher" than the other, its about every carmaker having their own design and engineering protocols, and seeing that I chose to purchase a Lexus...I will do what they say I need to do to maintain my car.
At the crux of this also is the fact that this is the LS forum...you do not have an LS. Your experience with your ES needs to be shared with the folks in the ES forum...it doesn't apply to the LS.
This is why arguing with you is pointless, because you believe this "conspiracy". I think Toyota does pretty well building and selling cars, I don't see that they would have a lot to gain by "colluding" with oil companies to recommend premium over regular fuel in one fairly low volume model. Why not recommend premium in everything? All Lexus volume products now recommend regular, their "oil buddies" must be pretty pissed huh?
That line of thinking is impossible to argue with though, because you can't have a logical argument when the other side's line of thinking is not logical.
The answer is, you can run Regular. In fact...Lexus came out and said you could run regular at a reduced power output for that model. The ES350 your year is advertised as having 272HP, the Camry that year is advertised as having 268HP. The engine runs differently on regular and premium. In order to be able to get the advertised 272HP premium was required.
In 2011 they changed the requirement for the ES to regular, and also reduced the advertised HP to 268.
But, Lexus did that for the ES...but not for the LS. Why? If you say it was because they were in bed with oil companies that makes no sense, the ES sells at a volume roughly 8-10 times that of the LS.
I'm not insulting you at all, but what you are saying that news piece is saying and what its actually saying are not the same, ergo you don't understand what the news piece is actually saying. Its not insulting to not understand something...there are many things I do not understand.
This is a silly argument, but it highlights the flaws in your logic here. I'm not being sold premium fuel from the fuel company. I'm using premium fuel because the manufacturer of my vehicle says to use premium fuel in my particular vehicle. The fuel company can try and sell me whatever they want...I ignore them and use what the manufacturer of my vehicle says I need to use. This argument is predicated on the stapler company selling me some additional thing that is going to do something for me, and thats not what is happening here. Lexus/Toyota does not make or sell fuel.
To put it in the scope of your stapler argument, lets say company A makes staplers, and company B makes staples. For the sake of argument, lets say company A does not also make staples.
If I buy a really high quality electronic stapler from Company A, pay a premium for it over cheaper staplers. If Company A says I have to use a higher grade of staples otherwise it may damage my stapler or it may keep my stapler from performing as well as it can, then yeah...I'm going to use the better staples...because I bought a premium stapler.
If Company B tries to sell me some staples that are more than what Company A recommends. I would defer to the recommendation of Company A because they manufactured my stapler.
Make sense?
I still have not seen where Porsche says this, but the answer is that works for Porsche, I did not buy a Porsche...I bought a Lexus and I use what Lexus recommends. If I bought a Porsche, I would use what Porsche recommends.
Its not about one carmaker being "higher" than the other, its about every carmaker having their own design and engineering protocols, and seeing that I chose to purchase a Lexus...I will do what they say I need to do to maintain my car.
At the crux of this also is the fact that this is the LS forum...you do not have an LS. Your experience with your ES needs to be shared with the folks in the ES forum...it doesn't apply to the LS.
11-15-15, 12:55 PM
#41
Pole Position
Welp- this is not about a Lexus, but many moons ago my wife had a 2001 Mazda MilleniaS...the supercharged Miller Cycle V-6..
Open the gas flap and you'd see the words "Premium Fuel Only". And guess what? Those nefarious conspirators at Mazda knew what they were talking about....I made a mistake of almost being on empty once and putting just a few gallons of regular in to get me by so I could make it to my favorite gas station. BIG MISTAKE. The Engine pinged so bad that it sounded like marbles in the crankcase. I babied it to another station and filled it up with PREMIUM.
Problem solved.
Open the gas flap and you'd see the words "Premium Fuel Only". And guess what? Those nefarious conspirators at Mazda knew what they were talking about....I made a mistake of almost being on empty once and putting just a few gallons of regular in to get me by so I could make it to my favorite gas station. BIG MISTAKE. The Engine pinged so bad that it sounded like marbles in the crankcase. I babied it to another station and filled it up with PREMIUM.
Problem solved.
11-15-15, 01:06 PM
#42
Lexus Fanatic
How much does full tank cost and how many KM do you get per tank?
Originally Posted by Lexus081
ok. but if lexus came out and said you can run an ES on 87, then why does it say in the user manual and gas cap only use premium?
In order for that engine to get 272 hp premium is required. They came out and said regular was fine but they reduced the hp to 268.
If you look at ES350s 2011 and newer they don't say premium required.
11-15-15, 01:10 PM
#43
Welp- this is not about a Lexus, but many moons ago my wife had a 2001 Mazda MilleniaS...the supercharged Miller Cycle V-6..
Open the gas flap and you'd see the words "Premium Fuel Only". And guess what? Those nefarious conspirators at Mazda knew what they were talking about....I made a mistake of almost being on empty once and putting just a few gallons of regular in to get me by so I could make it to my favorite gas station. BIG MISTAKE. The Engine pinged so bad that it sounded like marbles in the crankcase. I babied it to another station and filled it up with PREMIUM.
Problem solved.
Open the gas flap and you'd see the words "Premium Fuel Only". And guess what? Those nefarious conspirators at Mazda knew what they were talking about....I made a mistake of almost being on empty once and putting just a few gallons of regular in to get me by so I could make it to my favorite gas station. BIG MISTAKE. The Engine pinged so bad that it sounded like marbles in the crankcase. I babied it to another station and filled it up with PREMIUM.
Problem solved.
11-15-15, 01:12 PM
#44
Because your car was manufactured before they said that. Preprinted manuals and gas caps don't automatically change when the manufacturer makes a change years afterwards.
In order for that engine to get 272 hp premium is required. They came out and said regular was fine but they reduced the hp to 268.
If you look at ES350s 2011 and newer they don't say premium required.
In order for that engine to get 272 hp premium is required. They came out and said regular was fine but they reduced the hp to 268.
If you look at ES350s 2011 and newer they don't say premium required.
11-15-15, 01:13 PM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
How much does full tank cost and how many KM do you get per tank?
Originally Posted by Devh
If it didn't matter it begs the question why there is a premium recommended and premium required.
Now, we are assuming that Lexus did not make any engine changes in 2011. Lexus never said that previous models could also use regular. We simply inferred that.