How much does full tank cost and how many KM do you get per tank?
11-13-15, 08:32 PM
#16
Driver
Thread Starter
I don't have an IS but if you mean LS RWD non hybrid I get about 19MPG combined.
The hybrid gets around 20MPG combined. The hybrid is more efficient as far as it's drive train but it is offset by the overall weight of the car. Hybrid does not always equate economy as it can also add to the performance of the car even in race cars.
The hybrid gets around 20MPG combined. The hybrid is more efficient as far as it's drive train but it is offset by the overall weight of the car. Hybrid does not always equate economy as it can also add to the performance of the car even in race cars.
11-13-15, 08:37 PM
#17
Driver
Thread Starter
I agree and this is where the lines get blurred. It is a scam to push super in cars that don't require premium. I watched the video and it is obvious that they are basically saying the same thing.
The problem is making blanket statements like this one.
"premium gas is a complete scam"
The problem is making blanket statements like this one.
"premium gas is a complete scam"
the people in that video are professionals, they went to extraordinary lengths to prove that premium gas is a scam, which i believe.. they said that premium gas is only for supercars so that's what i'm going by....in the video they said 87 is just as clean and good as 93/94
i think some of the americans on this site are confused, but CBC is basically what CNN is here in Canada... in other words they are a big news network and their marketplace series has won a lot of awards..
11-13-15, 08:51 PM
#18
I don't remember as I have not filled it from empty in a long time with current fuel prices.
I would think the answer is simply the capacity times the price at the pump at your location and you will have your answer.
I would think the answer is simply the capacity times the price at the pump at your location and you will have your answer.
11-13-15, 09:17 PM
#19
no offense you to you anyone else here, but unless you are a mechanic or engineer or scientist or something along those lines, how can i listen to what a forum poster says over what a news network like CBC says which is a billion dollar company?
the people in that video are professionals, they went to extraordinary lengths to prove that premium gas is a scam, which i believe.. they said that premium gas is only for supercars so that's what i'm going by....in the video they said 87 is just as clean and good as 93/94
i think some of the americans on this site are confused, but CBC is basically what CNN is here in Canada... in other words they are a big news network and their marketplace series has won a lot of awards..
the people in that video are professionals, they went to extraordinary lengths to prove that premium gas is a scam, which i believe.. they said that premium gas is only for supercars so that's what i'm going by....in the video they said 87 is just as clean and good as 93/94
i think some of the americans on this site are confused, but CBC is basically what CNN is here in Canada... in other words they are a big news network and their marketplace series has won a lot of awards..
If you notice at 1:50 they mention that it's true that some car makers call for premium. That is what Lexus recommends for the LS 460. Lexus also states that using octane lower then 91 may cause knock. You want to talk about professionals how about Toyota engineers that designed the engine unless you want to discredit them in favor of journalists who have not tested the LS 460 to make that determination. I think it was stated by another poster that every engine is different and this holds true that you cannot lump everything into one big generalization.
What that video is sensationalizing on is using premium in a car that does not require premium and the oil industry pushing it on ignorant consumers with false advertising which I agree with. In fact a car that is rated for lower octane that uses premium will damage it in the long run by creating carbon deposits due to unspent fuel and increased emission that result in premature catalytic failure so it's not just a waste of money it can be harmful too. I have been on that side of the debate as well for people who believe premium is better gas for their cars that don't call for it.
This is a very old topic that was covered by Consumer Reports over fifteen years ago that basically said the same thing and it's common knowledge on most automotive forums.
But I have to ask you why do you think super cars need premium?
Last edited by Devh; 11-14-15 at 08:11 AM.
11-13-15, 10:15 PM
#20
Bill Studzinski, Fuels Technical Specialist at General Motors
“Automakers have to walk a fine line though; they can’t go overboard. This is where octane fits into the equation. Engines with higher compression ratios – often found in performance cars – almost always need higher octane fuel because it is less likely to automatically ignite. Russ said higher octane gasoline “does enable us to put more spark advance in and get more efficiency.”
To recap, higher cylinder pressures require higher octane, which prevents engine-damaging auto-ignition. But mistakes can happen, what if you put the wrong grade of fuel in your vehicle?
If you’ve got a premium-required car and you put in 87 octane and you start hearing audible knock, you need to baby that car until you can get that fuel changed” Studzinski said, adding “even if you don’t hear the audible knock the vehicle is reacting.” It’s reducing performance, lowering fuel economy and sending more heat into the exhaust catalyst, which reduces its durability."
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...is-octane.html
Last edited by Devh; 11-13-15 at 10:18 PM.
11-14-15, 11:40 AM
#21
Driver
Thread Starter
No offence to you but I agree with the video you posted for the most part.
If you notice at 1:50 they mention that it's true that some car makers call for premium. That is what Lexus recommends for the LS 460. Lexus also states that using octane lower then 91 may cause knock. You want to talk about professionals how about Toyota engineers that designed the engine unless you want to discredit them in favor of journalists who have not tested the LS 460 to make that determination. I think it was stated by another poster that every engine is different and this holds true that you cannot lump everything into one big generalization.
What that video is sensationalizing on is using premium in a car that does not require premium and the oil industry pushing it on ignorant consumers with false advertising which I agree with. In fact a car that is rated for lower octane that uses premium will damage it in the long run by creating carbon deposits due to unspent fuel and increased emission that result in premature catalytic failure so it's not just a waste of money it can be harmful too. I have been on that side of the debate as well for people who believe premium is better gas for their cars that don't call for it.
This is a very old topic that was covered by Consumer Reports over fifteen years ago that basically said the same thing and it's common knowledge on most automotive forums.
But I have to ask you why do you think super cars need premium?
If you notice at 1:50 they mention that it's true that some car makers call for premium. That is what Lexus recommends for the LS 460. Lexus also states that using octane lower then 91 may cause knock. You want to talk about professionals how about Toyota engineers that designed the engine unless you want to discredit them in favor of journalists who have not tested the LS 460 to make that determination. I think it was stated by another poster that every engine is different and this holds true that you cannot lump everything into one big generalization.
What that video is sensationalizing on is using premium in a car that does not require premium and the oil industry pushing it on ignorant consumers with false advertising which I agree with. In fact a car that is rated for lower octane that uses premium will damage it in the long run by creating carbon deposits due to unspent fuel and increased emission that result in premature catalytic failure so it's not just a waste of money it can be harmful too. I have been on that side of the debate as well for people who believe premium is better gas for their cars that don't call for it.
This is a very old topic that was covered by Consumer Reports over fifteen years ago that basically said the same thing and it's common knowledge on most automotive forums.
But I have to ask you why do you think super cars need premium?
they had an teacher/instructor of automotive and transport college for more than 20 years, i think that is an expert
what about the other teacher with the corvette who said you should always use regular? the manufacturer says to use premium but he's using regular, he also mentions the only time someone would need premium is if they're going to a race or something like that..
if a corvette or porsche doesnt require premium, how can someone say a lexus does?
11-14-15, 12:27 PM
#22
fair enough but I wasn't saying to listen to the journalists, they had plenty of experts in that video, as well as an expert from oil companies who they basically embarrassed..
they had an teacher/instructor of automotive and transport college for more than 20 years, i think that is an expert
what about the other teacher with the corvette who said you should always use regular? the manufacturer says to use premium but he's using regular, he also mentions the only time someone would need premium is if they're going to a race or something like that..
if a corvette or porsche doesnt require premium, how can someone say a lexus does?
they had an teacher/instructor of automotive and transport college for more than 20 years, i think that is an expert
what about the other teacher with the corvette who said you should always use regular? the manufacturer says to use premium but he's using regular, he also mentions the only time someone would need premium is if they're going to a race or something like that..
if a corvette or porsche doesnt require premium, how can someone say a lexus does?
When Lexus says can cause knock that's all you need to know unless you want to challenge the engineers that know this engine better then you or I. Until someone can show test data contradicting the manufactures statements I'm not going to use it, and I'm not going to take a statement from an expert without an in depth explanation until it satisfies me.
Last edited by Devh; 11-14-15 at 12:56 PM.
11-14-15, 12:54 PM
#23
Driver
Thread Starter
Here is the problem. Some so called experts may not be familiar with in the depth of where their knowledge is limited. I'm not saying they are wrong but as Nick pointed out and it must be repeated that every engine is tuned different and designed different. I don't know about the Corvette but if the manufacture say you can run 87 safely I don't see a problem with that. Maybe Porsche has a newer technology that allows you to safely run 87. Lexus is not a Porsche.
When Lexus says can cause knock that's all you need to know unless you want to challenge the engineers that know this engine better then you or I. Until someone can show test data contradicting the manufactures statements I'm not going to use it, and I'm not going to take a statement from an expert without an in depth explanation until it satisfies me.
When Lexus says can cause knock that's all you need to know unless you want to challenge the engineers that know this engine better then you or I. Until someone can show test data contradicting the manufactures statements I'm not going to use it, and I'm not going to take a statement from an expert without an in depth explanation until it satisfies me.
i think anyone out there with some knowledge knows that auto manufacturers are engaged in intercourse with oil producers.. so of course a car that doesn't absolutely require premium is still going to "Recommend" it...
when porsche says that their vehicles are used all over the world and there are lots of places that don't have premium gasses in the world so our vehicles need to be able to run on any gas, don't you think this is the case for lexus as well?
don't you think lexus is also driven all throughout the entire world, if porsche has designed it like that i'm sure every other manufacturer has, except of course they will never come out and say it... this is sort of like planned obsolescence
11-14-15, 01:07 PM
#24
but don't you think of corvette as a car that is made to hit high speeds really quick, a corvette is a corvette.... its in the same category as other super fast cars that come to mind like porsche and camaro's... so if a corvette can run on regular 87.. and a porsche can, then how the hell is it possible that a lexus which is not in the corvette/porsche category can't run on 87? when anyone thinks of a corvette the words speed and fast will come to mind, corvettes are up there with super cars but without the price tag.. in that video on the gas tank of the corvette you can clearly see it says "premium unleaded only".... so the manufacturer actually says its required but here we have a guy using 87 perfectly, and on top of that the guy is an expert, a teacher in automotive
i think anyone out there with some knowledge knows that auto manufacturers are engaged in intercourse with oil producers.. so of course a car that doesn't absolutely require premium is still going to "Recommend" it...
when porsche says that their vehicles are used all over the world and there are lots of places that don't have premium gasses in the world so our vehicles need to be able to run on any gas, don't you think this is the case for lexus as well?
don't you think lexus is also driven all throughout the entire world, if porsche has designed it like that i'm sure every other manufacturer has, except of course they will never come out and say it... this is sort of like planned obsolescence
i think anyone out there with some knowledge knows that auto manufacturers are engaged in intercourse with oil producers.. so of course a car that doesn't absolutely require premium is still going to "Recommend" it...
when porsche says that their vehicles are used all over the world and there are lots of places that don't have premium gasses in the world so our vehicles need to be able to run on any gas, don't you think this is the case for lexus as well?
don't you think lexus is also driven all throughout the entire world, if porsche has designed it like that i'm sure every other manufacturer has, except of course they will never come out and say it... this is sort of like planned obsolescence
If that were true Lexus would not have made an engine that can run safely on both 87 and 91.
They would have just said premium only across the board. For the LS it's premium fuel is required.
I also think you are driven more by marketing absolutes and cannot see that many high end luxury cars use the same or similar engines found in performance cars.
For that reason alone there is nothing I can say to further the conversation with you without accepting certain rational truths.
Last edited by Devh; 11-14-15 at 01:16 PM.
11-14-15, 01:34 PM
#25
They are professional journalists, not professional engineers. I would not expect a journalist who is not an auto journalist to understand how engines work. I do expect the professional engineers at Toyota to understand how engines work (and, judging by the reliability of their engines, they do). The engineers at Toyota are the ones telling me to use "PREMIUM FUEL ONLY," as it says on the gas cap, the dashboard, and the manual, for my LS460. I think there is a reason they did that, especially since many of the other cars they make say "PREMIUM FUEL RECOMMENDED" or that regular is OK.
And there is a perfectly believable reason the Toyota engineers specified premium only. 380 hp out of a 4.6L V8 is relatively high specific output, especially for an engine designed to be quiet, tractable at low rpm, and very long-lasting. The engineers got the desired output by using high compression, free breathing, and aggressive timing. We know the engine pulls timing if you use 87; posters here have documented that using scan tools. If timing is being pulled, that means there's detonation, even if it's subtle detonation you can't hear. I don't want any more detonation than necessary, because it's very hard on engine components. Yes, there may be a little bit even with premium in hot and humid weather, but why have more than necessary?
If you want to shorten engine life of your own car, be my guest. On my car, that I paid a lot of money to buy, I don't want to.
And there is a perfectly believable reason the Toyota engineers specified premium only. 380 hp out of a 4.6L V8 is relatively high specific output, especially for an engine designed to be quiet, tractable at low rpm, and very long-lasting. The engineers got the desired output by using high compression, free breathing, and aggressive timing. We know the engine pulls timing if you use 87; posters here have documented that using scan tools. If timing is being pulled, that means there's detonation, even if it's subtle detonation you can't hear. I don't want any more detonation than necessary, because it's very hard on engine components. Yes, there may be a little bit even with premium in hot and humid weather, but why have more than necessary?
If you want to shorten engine life of your own car, be my guest. On my car, that I paid a lot of money to buy, I don't want to.
11-14-15, 02:34 PM
#26
I wouldn't blindly trust Mr. Skyvisions opinion and I would not generally use this link for the bases of my argument but since you want to pair up so called experts it leaves me room to post the link below.
Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician
Experience: Lexus Expert
"This is a prime example of why he is a salesman and not a Technician. Please do not use 87 octane in this car!!! Yes the knock control sensors will compensate for some of the knock retard but what happens when you run out of control? OOPs! Use the higher fuel octane. I think The Lexus engineers may know a little more then the sales person that sold you the car."
Read more: http://www.justanswer.com/lexus/1vfv...#ixzz3rVY9DFaA
Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician
Experience: Lexus Expert
"This is a prime example of why he is a salesman and not a Technician. Please do not use 87 octane in this car!!! Yes the knock control sensors will compensate for some of the knock retard but what happens when you run out of control? OOPs! Use the higher fuel octane. I think The Lexus engineers may know a little more then the sales person that sold you the car."
Read more: http://www.justanswer.com/lexus/1vfv...#ixzz3rVY9DFaA
Last edited by Devh; 11-14-15 at 04:31 PM.
11-14-15, 02:38 PM
#27
Lexus Fanatic
Like Dev said, why would CBC being a "billion dollar company" mean anything? Toyota is +/- the worlds largest automaker, but you clearly don't trust them, why would you trust CBC?
If you aren't prepared to pay a little extra for premium I would suggest that you're better off to stay in the ES rather than upgrade to the LS.
11-14-15, 03:29 PM
#28
but don't you think of corvette as a car that is made to hit high speeds really quick, a corvette is a corvette.... its in the same category as other super fast cars that come to mind like porsche and camaro's... so if a corvette can run on regular 87.. and a porsche can, then how the hell is it possible that a lexus which is not in the corvette/porsche category can't run on 87? when anyone thinks of a corvette the words speed and fast will come to mind, corvettes are up there with super cars but without the price tag.. in that video on the gas tank of the corvette you can clearly see it says "premium unleaded only".... so the manufacturer actually says its required but here we have a guy using 87 perfectly, and on top of that the guy is an expert, a teacher in automotive
So I didn't stop there. I have taken note of the vintage of that silver Corvette and looked up the owners manual, what do I see.
Fuel
Gasoline Octane
Use premium unleaded gasoline with a posted octane of
91 or higher for best performance. You may also use
middle grade or regular unleaded gasoline rated at 87
octane or higher, but your vehicle’s acceleration may be
slightly reduced. If the octane is less than 87, you may
get a heavy knocking noise when you drive. If it is bad
enough, it can damage your engine.
http://www.c6registry.com/technical/...02corvette.pdf
The video you posted is somewhat misleading as they could have pointed out that the manufacture allows the owner to run 87 safely.
Last edited by Devh; 11-14-15 at 03:35 PM.
11-14-15, 07:45 PM
#29
Pole Position
Boy I've been reading a lot about octane on here lately. Bottom line, when fuel/air is compressed, it wants to burn. The more you compress it, the more it wants to ignite. To prevent this from happening too soon, a higher octane level is needed. Without it the flame fronts will collide and cause the piston to shake back and forth, or worse, cause the flame to ignite a hole in your piston. You need an even burn, not an explosion...the explosion will cause "knock". Knock will need to be controlled by your knock sensor and when this happens you will lose power (probably the cause of all these "hesitation" threads on this site). When you put lower grade gas in these cars they are very sensitive to it, trust me I tried it...loss of power, hesitation and lowered fuel economy was the result.
I average around 26.8 miles per gallon with this car driving with a mixture of premium and mid grade. The only reason why I alternate with mid grade is because I drive so much and I'm trying to save a few bucks. Is it worth it? Yeah I don't think the mid grade - when alternated with the super - does any damage to my engine. I wouldn't run regular in it, that's for sure.
The type of driving you do with these cars plays a huge roll in what you'll get for fuel economy. I don't drive as spiritedly as I'd like, for the simple fact I'm trying to save fuel. I glide down hills like its my job and I accelerate easily (not much fun, but it works). Also I do a lot of highway driving. This car loves the highway. If you can do that you will average very respectable numbers in these cars, thanks to the 8 speed transmission.
I average around 26.8 miles per gallon with this car driving with a mixture of premium and mid grade. The only reason why I alternate with mid grade is because I drive so much and I'm trying to save a few bucks. Is it worth it? Yeah I don't think the mid grade - when alternated with the super - does any damage to my engine. I wouldn't run regular in it, that's for sure.
The type of driving you do with these cars plays a huge roll in what you'll get for fuel economy. I don't drive as spiritedly as I'd like, for the simple fact I'm trying to save fuel. I glide down hills like its my job and I accelerate easily (not much fun, but it works). Also I do a lot of highway driving. This car loves the highway. If you can do that you will average very respectable numbers in these cars, thanks to the 8 speed transmission.
